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Hello all!

First of all. I know that there is a shot old thread that discuss this, but when I tried posting in it dakkakdakka basically said "dont annoy people, post a new thread".

Anyways, in that thread there was a discussion stating that a group of sisters cannot AoF out of a repressor, but I disagree with that to some extent.

BRR page 183 says that a group inside a transport normally cant do anything. It also states that it cannot be the target of an ability that targets a unit in a range. However the Act of Faith that you roll for (the one you get for free in the army on a 2+) does not have a range. It just says "one unit from your army".

Also while in a repressor they can acatually shoot out. So even if they "normaly" cant do anything, they can while in a repressor. The rule that says you cant use abilities only refers to bubbles from within the vehicle. I tried checking for an errata that states I am wrong in this, but perhaps there is no need for an errata and I just completly misunderstood something?

Thanks in advance for all the answers!

-Khurgar

Units in transports don't exist.

They're not on the table, and are unable to affect, or be affected by, anything - unless otherwise explicitly stated (see Ork KFF rules).

The rules for open-topped transports (and similar) allows for an embarked unit to shoot ONLY in the shooting phase; outside of that very specific moment and action, the unit goes back to not existing as far as the table is concerned (until disembarking).

1. The previous thread you read was most likely for an entirely different edition of the game.

2. To use a rule while embarked, the rule must specifically call that out. If the ability does not say it can be used "WHILE EMBARKED" then it can not be used.

 Ghaz wrote:
2. To use a rule while embarked, the rule must specifically call that out. If the ability does not say it can be used "WHILE EMBARKED" then it can not be used.

An example of such a rule are the Ork Kustom Force Field.

Yes but you are still mistaken I think. The Ork Kustom Force Field is an aura ability. The rules clearly state that if you want to use aura abilities from inside a vehicle it needs to specify it. Thats not an example that proves anything in my question as the Act of Faith is not an ability that is neither an aura nor originates from inside the vehicle.

Also to Ghaz:

1. It was for the same edition, dont be smug.

2. That rule clearly states that if you want to use an aura from inside the vehicle it must specify it. You need to read up on the rules.

BRB p183: Embarked units cannot NORMALLY do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units WITHIN A CERTAIN RANGE have no effect whilst the unit that has that has the ABILITY IS EMBARKED.

There is also no rule that states that a unit inside a transport does not exist. Thats an assumption not supported by rules.

The argument that they cannot shoot because it isnt the shoothing phase however is a valid argument. The rule on the vehicle clearly states they can shoot in the shoothing phase. However we have spells such as warp time that allows a unit to move as if it were the movement phase even if they used a deep strike rule that clearly states they cant move in the movement phase. The act of faith says that you can shoot as if it were the shooting phase so the same logic applies.

As a sidenote I just want to say that I am not a tourney player or somehting like that, I dont really care if this rule works one way or a nother, I just think that AoF and the repressor is a loophole atm.

So aagin, what I am suggesting is that units such as an imagnifier or celestine cannot target a unit inside a transport because the unit is not in range as it is not on the battlefield. Nor does the imagnifiers ability work while inside a transport. However the act that you roll for is applied to "one unit from your army" and thus should be able to select units from inside a transport because there is no rule stating that it cant.

Its very probable that this is gonna get clarified better when ministorum gets their own book, but as is right now I am confident I am correct.

Khurgar wrote:
Yes but you are still mistaken I think. The Ork Kustom Force Field is an aura ability. The rules clearly state that if you want to use aura abilities from inside a vehicle it needs to specify it. Thats not an example that proves anything in my question as the Act of Faith is not an ability that is neither an aura nor originates from inside the vehicle.

Also to Ghaz:

1. It was for the same edition, dont be smug.

2. That rule clearly states that if you want to use an aura from inside the vehicle it must specify it. You need to read up on the rules.

BRB p183: Embarked units cannot NORMALLY do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units WITHIN A CERTAIN RANGE have no effect whilst the unit that has that has the ABILITY IS EMBARKED.

There is also no rule that states that a unit inside a transport does not exist. Thats an assumption not supported by rules.

The argument that they cannot shoot because it isnt the shoothing phase however is a valid argument. The rule on the vehicle clearly states they can shoot in the shoothing phase. However we have spells such as warp time that allows a unit to move as if it were the movement phase even if they used a deep strike rule that clearly states they cant move in the movement phase. The act of faith says that you can shoot as if it were the shooting phase so the same logic applies.

As a sidenote I just want to say that I am not a tourney player or somehting like that, I dont really care if this rule works one way or a nother, I just think that AoF and the repressor is a loophole atm.

So aagin, what I am suggesting is that units such as an imagnifier or celestine cannot target a unit inside a transport because the unit is not in range as it is not on the battlefield. Nor does the imagnifiers ability work while inside a transport. However the act that you roll for is applied to "one unit from your army" and thus should be able to select units from inside a transport because there is no rule stating that it cant.

Its very probable that this is gonna get clarified better when ministorum gets their own book, but as is right now I am confident I am correct.

You need permission to use AoFs while embarked on a transport. You can't do anything with a unit if it's not on the table, unless you have explicit permission to do the thing. Where is the rule that allows AoFs to be used while embarked? If you can show a rule that allows you to do it, you can do it. Otherwise: nope.

Khurgar wrote:
Also to Ghaz:

1. It was for the same edition, dont be smug.

Do you know how many times we've seen someone dig up an old thread from a different edition? More than we can count. Don't be condescending to those who are trying to help you.

From page 183 of the main rulebook:

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

Again, Acts of Faith has no specific wording that states it can be used "... whilst the unit that has the ability (Acts of Faith) is embarked..."

Making assumptions and expressing opinions based on that can also come across as condescending, just so you know. if that was not your point then I apologize for my earlier comment.

You all keep saying that it cant be used because it does not say so. That is wrong. The rule you keep going back to has no relevance in the question. Its quite obvious that the rule is referring to abilities such as the imagnifiers ability to allow another unit to preform an act of faith. The ability has a range of 6", but does not work from inside a vehicle. THAT is what the rule states, and that is further reinforced by the fact that the ork KFF works as it is an aura ability from inside a vehicle. The rule I am asking about gives any unit in your army an act of faith. It does not has range. It does not originate from anywhere. It just states that one unit gets one action. Thats it.

I dont want to know how you guys would play it or how you think its supposed to work. I want to know if there is an actual rule prohibiting it, and the rule you are pointing to does not prohibit it.

Kustom Force Field: If this model is equipped with a kustom force field, friendly <ORK> units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons. If the Big Mek is embarked, the vehicle transporting it has a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons instead.

The Kustom Force Field can be used while embarked because it says it can. It in no way supports your claims. Quite the contrary it supports the the very relevant rule that has been quoted multiple times.

Khurgar wrote:
I want to know if there is an actual rule prohibiting it, and the rule you are pointing to does not prohibit it.

The rule that has been pointed out does prohibit it.

Khurgar wrote:
Making assumptions and expressing opinions based on that can also come across as condescending, just so you know. if that was not your point then I apologize for my earlier comment.

You all keep saying that it cant be used because it does not say so. That is wrong. The rule you keep going back to has no relevance in the question. Its quite obvious that the rule is referring to abilities such as the imagnifiers ability to allow another unit to preform an act of faith. The ability has a range of 6", but does not work from inside a vehicle. THAT is what the rule states, and that is further reinforced by the fact that the ork KFF works as it is an aura ability from inside a vehicle. The rule I am asking about gives any unit in your army an act of faith. It does not has range. It does not originate from anywhere. It just states that one unit gets one action. Thats it.

I dont want to know how you guys would play it or how you think its supposed to work. I want to know if there is an actual rule prohibiting it, and the rule you are pointing to does not prohibit it.

That's not how this works. You have to prove your theory that it is possible. I can't prove to you that God doesn't exist, but if you claim that God exists, you should be able to prove that he does.

Acts of Faith is an ability. Says so right in front of it.
Abilities cannot be used while in a transport unless otherwise noted, because the unit isn't on the table.
If you can show a place where it is noted otherwise, do it. Otherwise you're wrong.

It's moot because that 2+ AoF needs to be used on your Seraphim's movement anyway.

It does not prohibit it unless you leave out part of the rule stated. The rule in question only applies to abilities that has a range and originates from a unit inside the vehicle. AoF has neither range nor origin from inside the vehicle. Thus your continuatipn to enforce this rule is still wrong. It does not say that abilities cant be used, it says abilities that affects other units within a certain range does not work inside the vehicle.

@deviantduck sure! But this is just a thread of theories, not actual gameplay tactics

"perform an act of faith"

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything"

I guess the contention is if activating an act of faith is "doing anything".

They certainly can shoot in the shooting phase.

I appreciate that people could interpret this differently, but have to lean towards not possible.

Khurgar wrote:
It does not prohibit it unless you leave out part of the rule stated. The rule in question only applies to abilities that has a range and originates from a unit inside the vehicle. AoF has neither range nor origin from inside the vehicle.

From 'Acts of Faith:

On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list.

It most definitely does originate from inside the vehicle if that's where the unit is as it is the unit that is performing the Act.

You do realize that an embarked unit is not on the board per the embarkation rules. So unless you have some special rule that allows you to affect units not in play you can not use an act of faith on them or use them as a point of origin.

I'm guessing his argument is hinging on what the definition of "one unit from your army" is. While not on the table, are units in reserves still "units in your army"? Same question for models in transports. I think it currently doesn't work for units in a transport, but I feel it should work. I also think Rhinos and Chimeras need their 2 fire points back.

"On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list."

Even if you think units don't exist inside transports, the point is moot. I have a unit, in my army, I can use this Act of Faith rule. Disembarking is part of the movement phase, which is all this applies to anyway. (Because somehow that's broken?)

There are zero FAQ and ITC rulings saying what you guys are implying, that I cannot move out of a transport on a 2+ Act of Faith ability for a battleforged army. This logic of, "transports negate the existence of units" is not what the rule is for. It's for negating things like Celestine and Imagifiers abilities.
Those are limited to targeting units on the table. Different argument and question.

I will say this, in GWs drive to eliminate cheese, this hardly seems to fall into the category of cheese. We are talking a single unit moving from a vehicle on the table. Not Deep strike shenanigans, summoning shenanigans, IG orders shenanigans, and the like. I hope someone has submitted this to the FAQ folks at GW since people seem to be getting hung up on this.

Also, lets stop implying that people are "missing something" or "stupid" in these threads. We are just trying to get a common consensus on things.

I would say if the unit disembarks then there is no problem so long as AoF are not used "at the beginning of the movement phase".

But if you are trying to use a AoF while embarked then no. You can't. No ability, in any capacity, can be used while embarked without express permission.

 sfshilo wrote:
"On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list."

Even if you think units don't exist inside transports, the point is moot. I have a unit, in my army, I can use this Act of Faith rule. Disembarking is part of the movement phase, which is all this applies to anyway. (Because somehow that's broken?)

There are zero FAQ and ITC rulings saying what you guys are implying, that I cannot move out of a transport on a 2+ Act of Faith ability for a battleforged army. This logic of, "transports negate the existence of units" is not what the rule is for. It's for negating things like Celestine and Imagifiers abilities.
Those are limited to targeting units on the table. Different argument and question.

I will say this, in GWs drive to eliminate cheese, this hardly seems to fall into the category of cheese. We are talking a single unit moving from a vehicle on the table. Not Deep strike shenanigans, summoning shenanigans, IG orders shenanigans, and the like. I hope someone has submitted this to the FAQ folks at GW since people seem to be getting hung up on this.

Also, lets stop implying that people are "missing something" or "stupid" in these threads. We are just trying to get a common consensus on things.

Have there been any FAQ and ITC rulings backing what you are saying, that would override the statement ""Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked"? Your quotationn at the start of the post does not specifically override the transport restriction. You would need something specific fo rthem to a) be able to do something, or b) to be able be affected by an AoF while embarked. You have a specific prohibition that overrides your general permission to use an act of faith, you need something even more specirfic (say, something in the act of faith iteself) that would be able to override the prohibition.

EDIT: There is a common consensus among most people here, it's just that you don't agree with the consensus.

 Lance845 wrote:
I would say if the unit disembarks then there is no problem so long as AoF are not used "at the beginning of the movement phase".

But if you are trying to use a AoF while embarked then no. You can't. No ability, in any capacity, can be used while embarked without express permission.

AoF are used at the start of your turn.

nekooni wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I would say if the unit disembarks then there is no problem so long as AoF are not used "at the beginning of the movement phase".

But if you are trying to use a AoF while embarked then no. You can't. No ability, in any capacity, can be used while embarked without express permission.

AoF are used at the start of your turn.

Then no. If they are in a transport it doesnt work.

The act of faith rule does not originate from inside the vehicle no. It does not have an origin. Abilities such as Voice of Command has an origin, its from the commander that has it. Even if your entire sisters ary were to be in reserve you would still roll for your first act of faith, meaning it clearly does not have an origin. Saying that it does is like saying the origin of Voice of Command is the unit it affects rather than the commander that use it.

Everyone keeps saying ot nerds special permission to work, there is nothing that supports this. They "normally cannot do anything" but the sole rule stating you need permission has already been debunked, and normally is not an absolute. It does not say never. There is also nothing that suggeats AoF cannot target a unit in a transport. "Pick a unit" is pretty clear.

Khurgar wrote:
There is also nothing that suggeats AoF cannot target a unit in a transport. "Pick a unit" is pretty clear.

There is also nothing that says I can't win the game by juggling pineapples either. The game tells you what you CAN do, then adds restrictions onto it.

Ok, so a follow question then. Everyone that thinks this is agains the rules, would you also siggest that flash gitz cannot use ammo runts abd gun-crazy showoff? Or that the DAKKA!DAKKA!DAKKA! stratagem does not work on a unit in a transport even tho the stratagem says "when an ork unit shoots in the shooting phase"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BCB yes. The game says I can pick a unit in my army. The unit in a transport can shoot.

Khurgar wrote:
BCB yes. The game says I can pick a unit in my army. The unit in a transport can shoot.

The rules for shooting also say to pick a unit. By your logic I can shoot out of my Land Raiders now.

The rules for shooting also says that you need to be able to see your target. So even if you elect a unit inside a transport to shoot they wouldnt have any targets.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Khurgar wrote:
BCB yes. The game says I can pick a unit in my army. The unit in a transport can shoot.

The rules for shooting also say to pick a unit. By your logic I can shoot out of my Land Raiders now.

Even better - you can shoot with units in your reserve. Sure, you'll need a good range on your weapons, but still.

Khurgar wrote:Ok, so a follow question then. Everyone that thinks this is agains the rules, would you also siggest that flash gitz cannot use ammo runts abd gun-crazy showoff? Or that the DAKKA!DAKKA!DAKKA! stratagem does not work on a unit in a transport even tho the stratagem says "when an ork unit shoots in the shooting phase"?

No idea. I don't own any Xenos army nor index. What are the rules for an ammo runt or a gun-crazy showoff? If you'd provide those I could probably answer those questions.

The stratagem you mentioned is not selecting a unit, based on your incomplete quote. The Ork unit has explicit permission (due to being in an Open-Topped transport, at least I assume it is) to shoot, and "a unit shoots" is the "trigger condition" for your stratagem, at least from what I can tell. So I'd say yes, it does work.

Khurgar wrote:
The rules for shooting also says that you need to be able to see your target. So even if you elect a unit inside a transport to shoot they wouldnt have any targets.

Which is irrelevant because you can't select them to begin with. Or I could argue that they are models, they aren't alive and therefore cannot "see" anything.

Khurgar wrote:
flash gitz cannot use ammo runts abd gun-crazy showoff?

Runts trigger when the unit shoots, which they have been given permission to do from the transport firepoints, so I think this is OK. Similarly for Gun Crazy Show Offs, the ability works after they shoot, and they have been given permission to shoot from a transport.

Khurgar wrote:

Or that the DAKKA!DAKKA!DAKKA! stratagem does not work on a unit in a transport even tho the stratagem says "when an ork unit shoots in the shooting phase"?

Nothing in that stratagem suggests it can be used on embarked units, although they do fit the restriction, so I would allow it. Unsure.