Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Captyn_Bob yes but the biggest counterargument to what I suggest is that abilities cannot be used unlesd given specific allowence. I argue that this is wrong to begin with as the flash gitz should be able to use both theirs while embarked.

I argue that nothing suggests it because nothing exists to disallow it to begin with. Its just straight up "the unit can shoot and when it does you can use this".

To be fair I think that the AoF will be erratad to "unit on the battlefield" which would take care of the problem.

This again? Units in transports don't get to do anything during their turn unless they are specifically given the ability to do so by the transport. The Repressor allows SoB units to fire out of its six fire points during the shooting phase. It doesn't allow them to do anything else, like use an AoF, otherwise it would state that they could. It doesn't, so they can't.

The question has been put to GW several times and it hasn't been FAQ'd though they had several chances to do so because it doesn't need to be.

Khurgar wrote:
The act of faith rule does not originate from inside the vehicle no. It does not have an origin. Abilities such as Voice of Command has an origin, its from the commander that has it. Even if your entire sisters ary were to be in reserve you would still roll for your first act of faith, meaning it clearly does not have an origin. Saying that it does is like saying the origin of Voice of Command is the unit it affects rather than the commander that use it

"On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list."

I's clear that since you are designating a unit to perform an Act of Faith, the Act of Faith is coming from the unit performing it. If the unit is inside the Repressor, it can't do it because the transport rules don't let it.

.

Khurgar wrote:
Everyone keeps saying ot nerds special permission to work, there is nothing that supports this.

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any why whilst they are embarked." This means that you need special permission to be able to override that prohibition. If yo don't have permission to do specifically be able to do it in a transport, then you can't do it.

Khurgar wrote:
They "normally cannot do anything" but the sole rule stating you need permission has already been debunked, and normally is not an absolute. It does not say never. There is also nothing that suggeats AoF cannot target a unit in a transport. "Pick a unit" is pretty clear.

Yes, "normally" is not an absolute. You do need permission to ignore it, however - that's why it's not absolute. If you have the permission, you can do it, but you have to demonstrate specific permission to be able to do the action in a transport or to have something affect something inside a transport (or outside if it's something inside - Ork KFF is an esample here of how an item inside a transport can affect a transport. The statement for Acts of Faith does not indicate that it will work inside a transport, so - just like trying to manifest psychic powers inside a transport - you can't do it unless there's a specific mention that you can.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khurgar wrote:
The rules for shooting also says that you need to be able to see your target. So even if you elect a unit inside a transport to shoot they wouldnt have any targets.

Not if it's a weapon that doesn't require line of sight. Does that mean I can use those from inside a transport?

It does not originate from inside no. Performing an act of faith is the effect of the ability. They are the target of an ability, not the origin. This is clearly proven with my Voice of command example. The unit that gets ordered to act is not the origin of the ability, the commander is.

Nirmally is overruled by the fact that they can shoot out of it. A rule that states they can shoot allows them to do so no matter what phase the rule tells them to shoot in.

KFF has already been talked avout as well. Its the kind of ability that actually gets mentioned in the rules for transports. Why would they be so soecific regarding abilities that affects units within a certain range, instead of just writing "abilities cannot be used while embarked on a transport"?

But anyways, are you suggesting that a unit inside a vehicle, such as my flash gits example, cant use their abilities nor can they be targeted by stratagems?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does this mean that a unit firing overheated plasma does not suffer casualties because the overheat does not state that it can affect a unit inside a transport?

It doesnt matter where it originates.

THE UNIT cannot do anything or be effected by anything while embarked.

Is AOF a special rule of the unit? Guess what, the unit cant do anything while embarked so their special rules dont matter.

In order for them to do something to need explicit permission. Trukks give permission for the unit inside to shoot, and only shoot. Nothing gives any sisters unit the ability to use aof while embarked or to be effected by them while embarked.

Khurgar wrote:
Nirmally is overruled by the fact that they can shoot out of it. A rule that states they can shoot allows them to do so no matter what phase the rule tells them to shoot in.

The Repressor rule allows an embarked unit to shoot out of it "in their shooting phase" not any phase they like. This is a special rule of the Repressor, not the embarked cargo. The Sisters unit with the AoF rule could use it if they weren't in a vehicle to shoot "like it was the shooting phase". That doesn't change the rules for being embarked, which preclude the unit from doing anything unless the vehicle they are in has special rules that change this.



The Repressor embarked unit can shoot using its six fire points during the shooting phase because the Repressor rules allow them too. Nowhere in the Repressor rules does it allow them to be the target of an AoF or even anytime outside of their shooting phase. So they don't get to fire overwatch either, for several reasons, but my point is that they can only shoot out of it during their shooting phase, not by an ability that allows them to shoot as if it were the shooting phase. Would you be pushing this line of thought if the same unit was embarked in an Immolator or Rhino?

That is a good argument. I would argue that you still could since if it were the shooting phase 6 would be able to shoot out. Nut I dont think that we'll ever agree on that so I'll ask another question instead. What if I opted to move the unit instead of shooting with it?

Khurgar wrote:
That is a good argument. I would argue that you still could since if it were the shooting phase 6 would be able to shoot out. Nut I dont think that we'll ever agree on that so I'll ask another question instead. What if I opted to move the unit instead of shooting with it?

The answer is still no, because you CANNOT use the AoF on an embarked unit. The rules for Transports disallow it.

Khurgar wrote:
That is a good argument. I would argue that you still could since if it were the shooting phase 6 would be able to shoot out. Nut I dont think that we'll ever agree on that so I'll ask another question instead. What if I opted to move the unit instead of shooting with it?

Why is it so hard to understand? You need permission to effect embarked units. You need permission for embarked units to do anything. Do you have permission to effect the unit at the time when you would be using the AoF? No? Done. You can't do it.

Yeah, this really is pretty clear; the rule says embarked units can’t do anything unless permitted and also can’t have anything done to them unless permitted.

The act of faith rule let’s you select one unit, then triggers that unit to use its AoF ability.

The way I read it, transports block that both ways: the unit can’t be chosen because units in transports can’t be affected by external rules and then the unit in the transport can’t use its AoF because none of the the Acts specifically allow being used while in a transport.


As for the Flash Gitz, I’d say the same applies; no re-rolls and no extra shooting attacks. Just as I wouldn’t allow any embarked unit to re-roll misses when the transport is in range of a relevant aura. Just assume the vehicle is too cramped and noisy for the orders to be obeyed correctly, or for the runtz to feed the ammo right etc.

You can't use an AoF on embarked units for the reasons folk have presented above.

It does not say they cant do anything unless givien permission. You guys really need to get that. The only kind of ability that need permission to work is abilities with a range that comes from inside the vehicle. That fact in itself is proof enough that imunits can use abilities while embarked, as an ability is somethung not all units have and thus falls under the excoetion of "normally". I realize that you read it differently but I would argue that reading it your way makes no sense at all. But sure, I'll just cram a repressor full of cannonesses with combi plasmas and overcharge all day then, since they wont die from overheating due to the "cannot be affected in any way" rule.

Mr_Rose the rule says it normally cannot. An ability is outside of normal, as I wouldnt be able to use AoF with my tau fornibstance. A units abilities will always overrule the norm.

Anyways, I have gotten enough answers in this discussion, even of most of them dont even realize the actual wuestion lol. Thanks for all the answers and happywargaming.

Khurgar wrote:
It does not say they cant do anything unless givien permission.

It quite literally does.

Page 183 BRB wrote:Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Khurgar wrote:
It does not say they cant do anything unless givien permission.

It quite literally does.

Page 183 BRB wrote:Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

Agreed, it's not really a matter of debate.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Khurgar wrote:
It does not say they cant do anything unless givien permission.

It quite literally does.

Page 183 BRB wrote:Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

Agreed, it's not really a matter of debate.

Well.. it is a matter of debate because people are debating it.

Embarked Unit Rule
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

The fact they added normally means there are situations where they can abnormally do stuff. Otherwise, they'd flat out say that cannot do anything.

ACTS OF FAITH
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

Now, I believe this is a terribly written rule and should say "target unit on the board" rather than "one unit from your army", but it doesn't. It says one unit from your army. What is the definition of "unit from your army"? I totally think something in Reserve counts as "one unit in your army" making it a viable target. However, once targeted, it's not on the board and unable to perform any of the actions because the game breaks. However, a unit in a transport, is also a unit in your army and an eligible target, since the only stipulation is "one unit from your army" whatever the hell that means. So, I chose a squad of dominions in a repressor. The squad isn't on the board and can't shoot because it's embarked in a repressor. Make sense. Except! The repressor grants units the ability to shoot. It looks like the repressor grants one of those 'abnormal' situations. But it's not the shooting phase you say? That's true. In fact, it's not any phase because it's at the start of your turn before your movement phase in an undefined time period that doesn't actually exist in the game, but we'll ignore that for now. But, again, the AoF says that the unit may shoot as if it were the shooting phase. Solved that problem, too.

So essentially, a "unit from my army" that is off the board is chosen to shoot "as if it were the shooting phase" during a time period that doesn't exist in the scope of a players turn. I don't think this violates any rules.

That said, there's no way I would ever do, nor would I allow my opponent to do it and will most likely be followed up with an FAQ that says "No."

 deviantduck wrote:

The fact they added normally means there are situations where they can abnormally do stuff. Otherwise, they'd flat out say that cannot do anything.

Ork KFF is an example of a rule with an exception. It's explicitly clear when there is an exception.

 deviantduck wrote:

Embarked Unit Rule
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

Just like how a unit cannot normally charge after it advanced. But certain stratagems and unit abilities are exceptions to that rule. Those rules explicitly state when there is an exception and grant permission. AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

 Lance845 wrote:
AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

Which is more specific and takes precedence? A core rulebook transport rule that says units can't do anything while embarked or an index rule that says "one unit from your army" without any other restrictions?

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

Which is more specific and takes precedence? A core rulebook transport rule that says units can't do anything while embarked or an index rule that says "one unit from your army" without any other restrictions?

You know what? This is edition lag from 7th. Show me where in the 8th edition rule book it says more specific takes precedence?

In 8th you only have permission to do what it tells you you do. Nothing gives you permission to break the transport restriction. As such, yeah, you COULD select the unit in the transport for your AoF, and then it would have no effect because the transport rules say it would have no effect. You would have just wasted the opportunity to use the special rule.

 Lance845 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

Which is more specific and takes precedence? A core rulebook transport rule that says units can't do anything while embarked or an index rule that says "one unit from your army" without any other restrictions?

You know what? This is edition lag from 7th. Show me where in the 8th edition rule book it says more specific takes precedence?

In 8th you only have permission to do what it tells you you do. Nothing gives you permission to break the transport restriction. As such, yeah, you COULD select the unit in the transport for your AoF, and then it would have no effect because the transport rules say it would have no effect. You would have just wasted the opportunity to use the special rule.

Can a unit do anything in a transport?
No... Except if it's in a repressor then it can shoot in the shooting phase per the repressor's explicit permission to shoot while embarked in a transport.

It's pre-movement phase. Can the model shoot?
No... Except if it's the target of the act of faith that lets it shoot out of phase as if it were that phase.

So.. the act of faith grants permission to shoot out of phase? Yes.
So.. the repressor grants permission to shoot out of a transport even though that's normally restricted? Yes.

I don't see where the Transport restriction has any bearing on the embarked unit performing and act of faith shooting attack. They don't conflict.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

Which is more specific and takes precedence? A core rulebook transport rule that says units can't do anything while embarked or an index rule that says "one unit from your army" without any other restrictions?

You know what? This is edition lag from 7th. Show me where in the 8th edition rule book it says more specific takes precedence?

In 8th you only have permission to do what it tells you you do. Nothing gives you permission to break the transport restriction. As such, yeah, you COULD select the unit in the transport for your AoF, and then it would have no effect because the transport rules say it would have no effect. You would have just wasted the opportunity to use the special rule.

Can a unit do anything in a transport?
No... Except if it's in a repressor then it can shoot in the shooting phase per the repressor's explicit permission to shoot while embarked in a transport.

It's pre-movement phase. Can the model shoot?
No... Except if it's the target of the act of faith that lets it shoot out of phase as if it were that phase.

So.. the act of faith grants permission to shoot out of phase? Yes.
So.. the repressor grants permission to shoot out of a transport even though that's normally restricted? Yes.

I don't see where the Transport restriction has any bearing on the embarked unit performing and act of faith shooting attack. They don't conflict.

No. Because the embarked unit cannot be effected by the AoF. It doesn't effect them.

This part right here...

It's pre-movement phase. Can the model shoot?
No... Except if it's the target of the act of faith that lets it shoot out of phase as if it were that phase.

Correct.

This part right here...

I don't see where the Transport restriction has any bearing on the embarked unit performing and act of faith shooting attack. They don't conflict.

Incorrect. Because the AoF never reaches the embarked unit. Or even if it does, it has no effect. Again, the embarked unit cannot be effected by other rules or abilities unless given express permission. The Repressor doesn't give the embarked unit permission to be targeted by AoF. Therefore they can't.

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Because the embarked unit cannot be effected by the AoF. It doesn't effect them.

This part right here...

Which is what I was waiting for you to say and bring us back to our circular discussion. The AoF rule's only restriction is that it's a unit from your army. Not a unit from your army that isn't in a transport and is on the board. So doesn't this rule give you permission to ignore the restriction that units in transports can't do anything? Which takes precedence?

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Because the embarked unit cannot be effected by the AoF. It doesn't effect them.

This part right here...

Which is what I was waiting for you to say and bring us back to our circular discussion. The AoF rule's only restriction is that it's a unit from your army. Not a unit from your army that isn't in a transport and is on the board. So doesn't this rule give you permission to ignore the restriction that units in transports can't do anything? Which takes precedence?

AoFs restrictions don't matter. How do you not understand that?

1) You go to use AoF. AoF says pick a unit.

2) You pick a unit that is inside a transport.

3) The Transport rules say a unit inside a transport cannot be effected by abilities unless stated otherwise.

4) the AoF has no effect.

You are free, by all the rules of AoF, to select the unit in the transport. But it has NO EFFECT. It's not a matter of which rule takes precedence. They are not even mutually exclusive. But the end result of your choice of unit is nothing happens. You will have wasted your AoF on a unit that cannot actually use it. What part of this don't you understand?

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
AoF needs to give explicit permission to break the normal transport rules. It doesn't.

Which is more specific and takes precedence? A core rulebook transport rule that says units can't do anything while embarked or an index rule that says "one unit from your army" without any other restrictions?

You know what? This is edition lag from 7th. Show me where in the 8th edition rule book it says more specific takes precedence?

In 8th you only have permission to do what it tells you you do. Nothing gives you permission to break the transport restriction. As such, yeah, you COULD select the unit in the transport for your AoF, and then it would have no effect because the transport rules say it would have no effect. You would have just wasted the opportunity to use the special rule.

Can a unit do anything in a transport?
No... Except if it's in a repressor then it can shoot in the shooting phase per the repressor's explicit permission to shoot while embarked in a transport.

It's pre-movement phase. Can the model shoot?
No... Except if it's the target of the act of faith that lets it shoot out of phase as if it were that phase.

So.. the act of faith grants permission to shoot out of phase? Yes.
So.. the repressor grants permission to shoot out of a transport even though that's normally restricted? Yes.

I don't see where the Transport restriction has any bearing on the embarked unit performing and act of faith shooting attack. They don't conflict.

Yes, a unit can shoot out of a repressor. No, the unit can not use the act of faith while in the repressor to give it the chance to shoot out of phase, so you don't get to the point where you can shoot out of phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Because the embarked unit cannot be effected by the AoF. It doesn't effect them.

This part right here...

Which is what I was waiting for you to say and bring us back to our circular discussion. The AoF rule's only restriction is that it's a unit from your army. Not a unit from your army that isn't in a transport and is on the board. So doesn't this rule give you permission to ignore the restriction that units in transports can't do anything? Which takes precedence?

No, because it's not explicit permission. As BCB says, see Ork KFF for one example of explicit permission.


I guess this means you allow psykers to use powers that target themselves while in a vehicle.

I realize I'm a bit late to this party. But it seems to me that they wrote a special rule into the repressors data slate, but only went halfway. It seems to me that the repressors rules intend for the unit embarked to break the normal understanding of the game, and that they are to be seen as "existing" while inside the repressor specifically. Because if units embarked in transports don't "exist," and dominion inside a repressor amounts to a unit inside a transport, then technically the dominions don't "exist," but how can a unit that doesn't "exist" fire in the shooting phase. They can't possibly "exist" and then not "exist" willy nilly throughout the turn, they either exist or they don't. And the repressor special rules clearly intend for them to "exist," and as such, should be able to chosen as a unit in your army for AoF. There needs to be an FAQ that completes the job the repressor data slate set out to do, and confirm that the unit does indeed "exist" and can be used for AoF. This is a RAW vs RAI situation. And the OP is correct in what was clearly intended.

 peteralmo wrote:
It seems to me that the repressors rules intend for the unit embarked to break the normal understanding of the game, and that they are to be seen as "existing" while inside the repressor specifically.

You are massively overthinking this. The question is not of whether the unit “exists” or not–the rules do not mention the continued existence of a unit in a transport at all–but rather a question of what units in transports are permitted to do themselves, and what units outside of transports are permitted to do to the transported unit.
The answer is, other than embarking and disembarking, exactly what the transport says can be done — no more and no less.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
It seems to me that the repressors rules intend for the unit embarked to break the normal understanding of the game, and that they are to be seen as "existing" while inside the repressor specifically.

You are massively overthinking this. The question is not of whether the unit “exists” or not–the rules do not mention the continued existence of a unit in a transport at all–but rather a question of what units in transports are permitted to do themselves, and what units outside of transports are permitted to do to the transported unit.
The answer is, other than embarking and disembarking, exactly what the transport says can be done — no more and no less.

Yes, I understand your point, but I think my final conclusion still stands. It appears that the repressor is intended to operate similarly to an open topped vehicle, and that the unit/s embarked inside are to be considered present and part of the board state. If my assumption is correct, AoF should work on them, but we ultimately need a rules clarification on this from GW/FW. Rules debating it in the dakka forum will render no final consensus.

Except that’s not how “open topped” vehicles work either. The same restrictions apply.
Hell, it’s not even how open topped vehicles worked last edition.
I wouldn’t let a unit of SoB riding in a Trukk or a Raider use AoF/be affected by the AoF rule either. Just as I wouldn’t let them be targeted by shooting attacks or chosen for Smite.

 peteralmo wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
It seems to me that the repressors rules intend for the unit embarked to break the normal understanding of the game, and that they are to be seen as "existing" while inside the repressor specifically.

You are massively overthinking this. The question is not of whether the unit “exists” or not–the rules do not mention the continued existence of a unit in a transport at all–but rather a question of what units in transports are permitted to do themselves, and what units outside of transports are permitted to do to the transported unit.
The answer is, other than embarking and disembarking, exactly what the transport says can be done — no more and no less.

Yes, I understand your point, but I think my final conclusion still stands. It appears that the repressor is intended to operate similarly to an open topped vehicle, and that the unit/s embarked inside are to be considered present and part of the board state. If my assumption is correct, AoF should work on them, but we ultimately need a rules clarification on this from GW/FW. Rules debating it in the dakka forum will render no final consensus.

No. Wrong. It doesn't matter if the unit inside the transport is considered to be on the board because they are embarked. The rules for being Embarked say the unit inside cannot be effected by anything without express permission. AoF cannot target the embarked unit. Or more correctly, they CAN target the embarked unit but it would be a complete waste of time because it would have no effect. The unit inside cannot be effected by anything.

No FAQ needed. No uncertainty. It's not unclear. The opposite. It's perfectly clear. The embarked unit cannot be effected.