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Hi guys,

How do you use ruins in your games? Here my questions:

1) Close combat in ruins : Do you go base to base to make models attack another units in close combat? How do you do if you want attack another unit and you are not on the 1st level? ( on the ground) How do you do if all ruins is full and you cannot reach models on the levels? You need to go 1'' to close combat right? All models on ruins are immune to close combat?

2)When a flying go on an ruin, do you mesure the inch like any unit to climb the levels vertically?

THe rules section on ruins and scenery is blurry..

Sarevokk wrote:
1) Close combat in ruins : Do you go base to base to make models attack another units in close combat? How do you do if you want attack another unit and you are not on the 1st level? ( on the ground) How do you do if all ruins is full and you cannot reach models on the levels? You need to go 1'' to close combat right? All models on ruins are immune to close combat?

One inch range measured base to base, fighting through the ruin walls is allowed. The one inch thing means that units on different levels cannot fight each other. So if there's not room to move up then close combat does not occur. But there's a lot of talk about this, for example https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736933.page, so I'm far from convinced I have it "right", but it works for my games so far.

Sarevokk wrote:
2)When a flying go on an ruin, do you mesure the inch like any unit to climb the levels vertically?

I think it can just move through the walls as "fly" ignores terrain. A flying unit on one side of a building can fly to the other without measuring up, across and down. So I guess it's therefore logical that it can just go up ignoring the sideways movement.

Sarevokk wrote:
THe rules section on ruins and scenery is blurry..

I think for most things it's pretty clear, but it is somewhat counter intuitive. For example tall monsters on the ground floor being unable to attack infantry on another floor because of the base to base, and not model to model, method of measuring range. But it is simple, and I like simple.

Edited to add... But I'm only recently returning to 40k after dabbling with RT about 30 years ago... This means that I don't have any pre-existing rules lodged in my head, but I might well be misreading some of the new rules.

Wobbly model rule
.
my units look like there on the ground floor but after piling in are actually suspended in mid air pressed up against the ceiling and so can stab you through the floor

U02dah4 wrote:
Wobbly model rule
.
my units look like there on the ground floor but after piling in are actually suspended in mid air pressed up against the ceiling and so can stab you through the floor

This rule does confuse me.... The text of it is:
Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so they cancheck if it is visible

I've played it to mean that if I could place a model somewhere on the scenery, but that place is precarious and the model is likely to fall, then I can call "wobbly model" and say that the model is there but move it away.

That's because I read it as saying that the model must have been put exactly where I want it but balanced there. I can't balance something in mid air, so I can't "wobbly model" is as being there. I will quite literally try to balance the model where I want it, if it sits there when I take my hands away then I think that I'm good to "wobbly model" it and ask my opponent if that's OK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarevokk wrote:
There is 30 daemonettes that surround 10 necron warriors on the 1st and 2st floor of a ruin. The ruin is full. Do you mean that the necrons are immune to close combat? Daemonettes can only throw rocks at them?

If the Deamonettes are on the ground floor then yes, that's how I would play it at the moment.

This is because:
1) Range is base to base - This is a definite rules requirement
2) I do not believe that "wobbly model" allows me to suspend myself in mid air as I cannot precariously balance there - This is my interpretation, I'm aware that this is debated.
3) Even if you could move half way up a sheer vertical wall and "wobbly model" yourself there (I'm not sure about this, I think there's a rule for this somewhere, but my interpretation of "wobbly model" precludes it) range is still base to base and models have the base at the bottom. So unless your model is 1" tall you still cannot get within 1" of an enemy standing on the floor above.

Wobbly model is only for when you can place a model somewhere, but don't want to because it might fall off. It's not for imaginary levitating models.

The issue of the first floor of a ruin being full so that assaulting models can't fit on has always been in the game. If you play it RAW (ie: you can't assault) the game breaks apart. Everyone I've ever played with has recognized that fact and always "fudged" it to let the assaulters charge (provided they have enough movement to get up).

Dislike the faq all you want its clear

What happens when an infantry model completely end its move on a floor of ruins when
attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move
to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome
guidelines in the core rules to identify with your
opponent where your model’s actual location is.

You are of course technically climbing walls not dangleing in mid air

Don't over-analyse it, friends! If a model would end it's move in place that it can't or shouldn't be placed in (halfway up a wall, or perhaps on the tippy-top wall of a ruin), then note with your opponent where this "real" position is, and then move the model to the side. Personally, I place it as close to the spot it should be in as I can, that way the opponent doesn't forget it's there. When it comes time that your opponent needs to draw LoS to it for whatever reason, you simply hold it in it's "real" position so your opponent can carry out their actions.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The issue of the first floor of a ruin being full so that assaulting models can't fit on has always been in the game. If you play it RAW (ie: you can't assault) the game breaks apart. Everyone I've ever played with has recognized that fact and always "fudged" it to let the assaulters charge (provided they have enough movement to get up).

I don't think playing it exactly according to the rules would break apart the game, it's just another thing that's "odd" and somewhat lacking in common sense, but it's a very simple and quick rule.

Coming from a background in RPG and the original RT where a GM was encouraged I'd be more than happy to wing something together (perhaps allowing a charge every turn from one floor to another with the accompanying overwatch but without models actually having to move or get within 1", if they can make enough room they can consolidate up, if not they have to charge again next turn) but I wanted to understand what the actual baseline rules are before heading off into home rule territory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
Dislike the faq all you want its clear

Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.

You are of course technically climbing walls not dangleing in mid air

From the "Stepping into a new edition" document, thanks for that, I thought I'd read something like that somewhere but my FAQ and Errata searches couldn't turn it up.

That still doesn't get around the needing to get within one inch issue though. As said above I'm happy to fudge, but do want to understand what the baseline core rules are.

Sarevokk wrote:

One inch range measured base to base, fighting through the ruin walls is allowed. The one inch thing means that units on different levels cannot fight each other. So if there's not room to move up then close combat does not occur. But there's a lot of talk about this, for example https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736933.page, so I'm far from convinced I have it "right", but it works for my games so far.

sieGermans wrote:

Sarevokk wrote:

I thought models that were no more than 3" apart and directly above/beneath each other were able to fight each other and were considered in base to base for close combat? This aligns with how units along the same lines are considered to be in unit coherency despite being more than 2" apart, technically.

Certainly that was the rule in 6th/7th, I'm nearly certain.

Not in 8th....

Range is defined as:
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point

And then in the fight phase:
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

That leads to an odd situation where a vehicle parked on the ground floor of a ruin may be able to fight models on the floor above as you can measure from the closest point, so the top of the hull, while a Carnifex could not as it has a base and must measure from there.

I can see why they've done this, it simplifies everything and speeds it up, there's no room for debate an you can get on with war-war not jaw-jaw. In friendly games you can then talk it out and do whatever you're comfortable with.

U02dah4 wrote:
Dislike the faq all you want its clear

What happens when an infantry model completely end its move on a floor of ruins when
attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move
to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome
guidelines in the core rules to identify with your
opponent where your model’s actual location is.

You are of course technically climbing walls not dangleing in mid air

I had never seen this. So you can end your move halfway between floors, that solves the assaulting problems. So if you are directly below the enemy on a 3" level you can charge even if you roll snake eyes. The wobbly model rules on their own only refer to models that could actually be placed, which is a big difference.

Its easy to miss one these days with so many

STEPPING INTO A NEW EDITION OF WARHAMMER 40,000


And essentially yes if your model’s are positioned off the ground