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ian wrote: I dont underatand why people think its ok to use a shop and not buy goods from there , i wouldnt go to a resturant and buy a small drink and expected to use that table for a couple of hours.
Your not going to save that much by shoping online
I think the debate, in this case, is should you feel obliged to purchase on top of the table fee, I'd come down on the side of not really, obviously the odd purchase along with paint and other small items will keep you in the owners good books but its not imo an obligation
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Though at the same time you should probably try and not be a hobby vampire. those kinds of people are what kill game stores.... that and poor poor poor management.
ian wrote: I highly doubt that the owner of the store is making a huge profit,
Its a shop foremost, not a club
I bet most 40k players have way over 15% of there collections that is sitting around doing nothing.
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales.
How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
but why should I support a badly run business for the sake of the vague concept of 'community', I haven't has a FLGS in my corner of the shire for over a decade yet thanks to some dedicated gamers (and me) and the magic of the Internets we've managed to keep a community going by renting out spaces to play
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
ian wrote: I highly doubt that the owner of the store is making a huge profit,
Its a shop foremost, not a club
I bet most 40k players have way over 15% of there collections that is sitting around doing nothing.
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales. How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
but why should I support a badly run business for the sake of the vague concept of 'community', I haven't has a FLGS in my corner of the shire for over a decade yet thanks to some dedicated gamers (and me) and the magic of the Internets we've managed to keep a community going by renting out spaces to play
Because running a brick and mortar isnt the same thing as a web based warehouse in the sticks. keeping a community alive is one thing, you can rent out a space once a week or whatever but that is nothing compared to running an actual shop with bills and overhead.
Edit: VVV oh yeah UK. im talking based on the US side of things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 19:56:54
ian wrote: I highly doubt that the owner of the store is making a huge profit,
Its a shop foremost, not a club
I bet most 40k players have way over 15% of there collections that is sitting around doing nothing.
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales.
How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
but why should I support a badly run business for the sake of the vague concept of 'community', I haven't has a FLGS in my corner of the shire for over a decade yet thanks to some dedicated gamers (and me) and the magic of the Internets we've managed to keep a community going by renting out spaces to play
I think we in the UK are rather lucky in that regard. In the US, it seems like the variety of community halls, church halls, scout halls, etc, that host games clubs up and down the country don't exist. So, it's shops or nothing. At that point, it's not vague - if everyone buys all their minis on the Internet, the shop shuts, and now everyone has loads of minis and nothing to do with them.
2018/03/07 20:01:42
Subject: Re:Should I be obliged to buy from my FLGS?
ian wrote: I highly doubt that the owner of the store is making a huge profit,
Its a shop foremost, not a club
I bet most 40k players have way over 15% of there collections that is sitting around doing nothing.
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales.
How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
but why should I support a badly run business for the sake of the vague concept of 'community', I haven't has a FLGS in my corner of the shire for over a decade yet thanks to some dedicated gamers (and me) and the magic of the Internets we've managed to keep a community going by renting out spaces to play
I think we in the UK are rather lucky in that regard. In the US, it seems like the variety of community halls, church halls, scout halls, etc, that host games clubs up and down the country don't exist. So, it's shops or nothing. At that point, it's not vague - if everyone buys all their minis on the Internet, the shop shuts, and now everyone has loads of minis and nothing to do with them.
But as a counter that, the sheer volume of US properties that have garages, basements or just plenty of indoor space, alongside the relatively higher sq ft/£ you get, makes home gaming a much more practical prospect than in the U.K. (As an average, there's obviously going to be exceptions at both ends on both sides of the Atlantic.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 20:06:56
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Turnip Jedi wrote: maybe but its that old sticking point that a fair few stores are too much hobby not enough business
This is true. a lot of stores end up getting opened by hobbits for hobbits and they end up failing because they dont go into it prepared or with the proper mind set to run a business
but then not much a business can do or can even compete with online retailers that have already been established.
the only thing they can offer is superior service and a place to play. in return you are kinda expected to actually spend money there. otherwise if you are just using the space and just buying a pot of paint a week then all you are doing is leaching off of them.
You don't have to buy anything beyond your fees technically. That said, if you want the place to stay open and do well, spend a little money on paints, upgrades, a character model every now and then. No reason to spend all your money there, but throw them a little support beyond the bare minimum if you want the place to stay open.
ian wrote: I highly doubt that the owner of the store is making a huge profit,
Its a shop foremost, not a club
I bet most 40k players have way over 15% of there collections that is sitting around doing nothing.
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales.
How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
this is a significant problem. when customers only focus on price rather than value we get the loss of small local businesses. those local businesses foster new players, (most) offer gaming space, and help to maintain a feeling of growing the community.
yes most hobby shops run by hobbyists are not managed very well. so those shops should not survive. but at least here in the USA, those local shops provide jobs, tax revenue and a "friendly" face that you can actually interact with rather than an email.
personally I would rather spend a little more on the product to have a place to play (granted I wouldn't pay a fee to play, that's what my garage is for) and somewhere that like minded people can congregate and enjoy the hobby together. I like dakka and all but in person discussions is soo much better.
you should never feel obliged to purchase from anywhere, but ask yourself is it worth it?
ian wrote: I dont underatand why people think its ok to use a shop and not buy goods from there , i wouldnt go to a resturant and buy a small drink and expected to use that table for a couple of hours.
Your not going to save that much by shoping online
A surprisingly large number of coffee shop customers do this - sometimes not even buying anything. It's part of the whole 'it's moral if you don't stop me' mentality.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Surprised by some of the responses in this thread.
A friend of mine used to own a FLGS. Someone spending $500 or more would usually get a deal on whatever they were buying, up to 25% off. He even did a Forgeworld order every 2 weeks, which meant everyone got free shipping.
I thought most FLGS' operated this way, and it's usually cheaper to buy from them.
A friend of mine used to own a FLGS. Someone spending $500 or more would usually get a deal on whatever they were buying, up to 25% off. He even did a Forgeworld order every 2 weeks, which meant everyone got free shipping.
I thought most FLGS' operated this way, and it's usually cheaper to buy from them.
It depends
some times you have to actually start a relationship become and regular and generally be a cool dood and talk.
its not something you should expect from a store, but you can absolutely work things out with people so long as you arent a social potato.
this is a significant problem. when customers only focus on price rather than value we get the loss of small local businesses.
This.
The flip side being that a business does not have the divine right to anyone's money, for any reason, let alone just by dint of being local, and if it is losing customers based on price it perhaps isn't communicating the value it's adding effectively.
One will always encounter illogical buying decisions too, I've lost customers despite being cheaper because I was working for only the third largest retailer in the country, as opposed to the biggest (brand snobbery in essence.)
Then there's the customer who feels perfectly entitled to buy at the lowest price, then seek out the most convenient source of support should they have any after sales needs. There should be a special place in hell reserved for them. They were such a drain on our time in one store (where we were well known for knowing our stuff, but not everyone was prepared to pay that bit extra on the odd occasion we weren't screwing our margin down to the last penny) that I almost persuaded the Chairman to authorize a poster stating "Advice to our customers is free, to everyone else it will be subject to a consultation fee!" But he was worried some would take it too seriously and, to be fair, the ones it would be aimed at would be too dense to notice/care anyway...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Racerguy180 wrote: when customers only focus on price rather than value we get the loss of small local businesses.
Alternatively, customers are focused on value, just not the value you want. For some people the lowest price is the most important component of value, and those things you perceive as added value are paying extra for unnecessary add-ons. For example, if you play at home the fact that a store has rented extra floor space for gaming tables and pays extra employees to run events is meaningless. And the loss of that "value" is also meaningless.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
yep but in this case the store is expecting you to pay a fee for those extra's on top of full RRP, which just doesn't seem like good business, or at least a business plan that wilfully ignores the Internet
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2018/03/08 11:44:52
Subject: Re:Should I be obliged to buy from my FLGS?
Are you obligated to buy from your FLGS? technically no.
On the other hand if the FLGS is looking to stick around they will seek your custom.
I play at both a club and a store.
The club charges £3 a night (or a monthly fee which works out a little cheaper if you go enough) and for that you get tables, good terrain and someone sat behind a counter to sell you drinks, crisps, chocolate etc.
The shop is free to play. Has good terrain and tables available. Recommends booking for weekends etc and sometimes when they have an event on its booked up and thats bad luck. (But thats fair enough, I mean they can't magic up more space)
The club sells nothing except food and drink.
The shop has a wide range and can direct order stuff in for you (order before monday and get it that thursday for GW product.) everything is 10%off. 15% off on orders over £100 and 20% off on orders over £250.
So I'm in a pretty sweet position. If I want to bulk order stuff I can hit the 20% mark and thats about as good as you find online. For my smaller orders I still order from my FLGS for convenience and because if I'm spending less than £100 I'm generally not saving much over the cost of postage anyway.
Also the owners are friendly, supportive and generous with support for events. They frequently sponsor events at the club with vouchers and prizes. As well as donating models to school clubs etc.
Our local community views them as part of the community, they opened up 18months or so ago and have actively sought to improve the community ever since. As a result the community is thriving and they are doing very well.
Its a relationship, both sides put into it and both sides are rewarded.
Turnip Jedi wrote: yep but in this case the store is expecting you to pay a fee for those extra's on top of full RRP, which just doesn't seem like good business, or at least a business plan that wilfully ignores the Internet
Well we know that RRP works because GW still run their own website and local stores and still make viable sales. If we assume that the physical store isn't going to compete with the giant stores online; then its only competition is other stores on the highstreet; if there's no other store charging less than RRP in their catchment then there's no pressure to lower prices.
From the store owners point of view if they weren't running the club the chances are that the area would have to have a hobby club, which would likely still charge a similar sort of fee to play (paying for rent/tables/lights/heating/terrain etc...). So in the stores point of view it doesn't matter if the store is charging the rental fee for the club or if the club is run separate and running its own fee. The only difference is that the store is putting on the service for the community to help keep it alive in order ot help protect its own customer base.
One can viably argue that the store could choose to Invest in its community by waving the membership fee; but at the same time its not an abusive policy if they do charge the fee.
Value is the operative word here, but I'm not talking about just model cost, although that's part of the equation. You have to ask yourself "what am getting from my FLGS that I wouldn't get elsewhere?" For a lot of gamers it's a long list, depending on the store. A well run FLGS gives you a quality gaming space, a built-in and evolving community of gamers, quality gaming and hobby advice, and free (or very cheap) events on a regular basis. I worked at a fantastic FLGS for years while I was in university, and I can tell you that planning campaigns, tournaments, and painting competitions is a lot of extra work, and work that doesn't produce direct profit in most cases. The advice factor can't be overlooked either, if you, through your FLGS, have access to high-end competitive play advice, and high-end hobby advice, that's a huge resource, and one, again, that doesn't produce direct income for the store. At the time, I was a very successful tournament player, and a golden demon winning painter - you aren't getting that kind of support online through forum comments.
So for a store like the one I described above, I think that most people should find it very appropriate to repay that level of support and resources with regular custom. Maybe not all your custom, but some significant chunk of it. On the other hand, if your FLGS is essentially just a shop with figs and a couple of crummy tables, then the picture changes a lot. It all depends on the store - a quality FLGS is a treasure that deserves support.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 13:18:22
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Fenris-77 wrote: Value is the operative word here, but I'm not talking about just model cost, although that's part of the equation. You have to ask yourself "what am getting from my FLGS that I wouldn't get elsewhere?" For a lot of gamers it's a long list, depending on the store. A well run FLGS gives you a quality gaming space, a built-in and evolving community of gamers, quality gaming and hobby advice, and free (or very cheap) events on a regular basis. I worked at a fantastic FLGS for years while I was in university, and I can tell you that planning campaigns, tournaments, and painting competitions is a lot of extra work, and work that doesn't produce direct profit in most cases. The advice factor can't be overlooked either, if you, through your FLGS, have access to high-end competitive play advice, and high-end hobby advice, that's a huge resource, and one, again, that doesn't produce direct income for the store. At the time, I was a very successful tournament player, and a golden demon winning painter - you aren't getting that kind of support online through forum comments.
So for a store like the one I described above, I think that most people should find it very appropriate to repay that level of support and resources with regular custom. Maybe not all your custom, but some significant chunk of it. On the other hand, if your FLGS is essentially just a shop with figs and a couple of crummy tables, then the picture changes a lot. It all depends on the store - a quality FLGS is a treasure that deserves support.
totally agree, if my circumstances were a smidge different I'd totally support my 2 awesome 'not quite' local stores as they both offer excellent venues and reasonable prices but the OP's store doesn't really sound much like the criteria you outlined
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Valkyrie wrote: I'm part of a very friendly group at a local store, and while it's a great place, I'm not too keen on actually buying from there. I pay my club dues and all necessary fees, but not much in terms of products. One of the members recently bought some rulebooks off eBay, prompting another member to criticise him for not getting them from the store, citing a "lack of community spirit".
Here's the thing, the store sells everything for RRP, whereas most of the other stores I've visited have had some sort of discount. Hell, one of them I visited a few times had a £1 discount on 40K stuff, but even that small reduction attracted customers. I was quite annoyed at this comment, as I'm not particularly wealthy, and if there are cheaper avenues elsewhere surely that should be acceptable.
There's another store I visit whenever I'm in London, I can get a box of Custodes for £26 rather than the £35 the FLGS sells for. I know it's my money to do as I please yet there's this niggling feeling that I should buy from the FLGS. Should I be obliged to pay more to keep this sense of community going?
I think there are moral arguments for supporting local businesses and communities. However, like "community spirit" such areguments nebulous and arguable, so instead think of it in a purely transactional manner.
Assuming that club fees are not enough to support a local shop...
...Do you want the businesse to continue to exist?
-If Yes, buy there.
-If no, buy elsewhere.
It's really as simple as that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 16:14:52
Most highstreet stores are disapearing because of online sales.
How long do you think hobby stores will last without customers
The internet seems to have changed our focus to how cheap can we get stuff and thats means strip back as much service as possible
I had read an article, I think maybe back in January (??) wherein the author (who actually has some decent credentials for the article) showed a definite trend that the Brick and Mortar shops are coming back. Yes, there was a period in the late aughts that physical stores were disappearing but, that trend is reversing/has reversed.
People in essence realized what a good shop is/looks like, and the good shop owners are meeting/exceeding that look. Sure, a B&M cannot cut prices as much as an online retailer, however, you cannot adequately get advice from an online retailer. One example the author used (he has a board game background) was a customer had previously bought a board game from him. They were in the market for a new game and sought his advice. Being able to question/pick apart/analyze what a person/group likes and dislikes about a product helped him fit that customer to a different product. He writes how on other occasions, people in his shop provided that feedback and demoed a product for/with another customer.
Long story short, I think we saw a period where many of the "bad" shops were run under because they were clueless as to what people wanted, and we saw the rise of internet dealers. I don't think internet dealers are going away, but the B&M shop is making something of a comeback as owners are realizing what they offer over online, and capitalizing on that.
Long story short, I think we saw a period where many of the "bad" shops were run under because they were clueless as to what people wanted, and we saw the rise of internet dealers. I don't think internet dealers are going away, but the B&M shop is making something of a comeback as owners are realizing what they offer over online, and capitalizing on that.
Like a new army, people all cried the internet was OP, and there was nothing to be done to counter it and called for a nerf.
Then, slowly but surely, the B+M figured out that there were some things that internet couldn't deal with, and began to build their lists with a greater emphasis on those things.
Sure, certain list concepts have fallen by the wayside, and B+Ms that refused to adapt to the presence of internet in their local meta have struggled, but for those that are willing to adapt and change, new opportunities have opened up!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
There is a limit to the amount of things people need advice on.
Whilst i do think some types of b and m stores will develop like hobby based stores however they cannot compete with online sales, they just dont have the resources to have big warehouses ect.
So it really is down to us to make sure the local stores have a local market
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/08 21:31:23
You know, I'd disagree about the advice thing. Netlisting and forum advice is one thing (and not a bad thing btw). Having a high-end tournament player actually watch you play your list and give you advice while you do it (on more than one occasion potentially) is a whole other thing. Same goes for painting and converting - advice and discussion in person is a whole different beast than advice and discussion online.
That kind of service is one of the things that should help maintain and grow a local market. It's a service those hobbyists can't get online. And now we're back to "should you shop at your local store or not" and talking about the quality of the store in question. Nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 01:25:17
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
HuskyWarhammer wrote: If you're paying a club due or fee, I would so no, you're not morally obligated to buy there.
Exactly this. I believe in “pay where you play”, and you’re doing that already. If the owner chose to go the route of paying for club dues, that should allow your conscience to be clean.
You are assuming the club fee is for the store owner. Which might be true, but the club fee could just as easily have nothing to do with the actual space..
Our club has a (small) fee to help us organise events (members play club event for free) and acquire tables and terrain. The store owner lets us use his space and keeps his shop open late (and give us a discount) for no charge.
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