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Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...

I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?

Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.

I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.

I think you'll see Enlightened at top tables as part of soup lists. Otherwise... eh. It's certainly no GK codex, I'd put it closer to the middle of the pack. More along the lines of AdMech.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...

I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?

Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.

I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.

Chaos terminators have a lot of options, but in general they are worse point per point than scarab termi. Inferno bolters are just too good and sinergize really well with VotLW.

This is a well done codex, both competitive and full of character. It's a minidex though, so we'll see it used a lot as part of soups and less by itself.

Time will tell, really. It is impossible to gauge the strength of a codex before a large number of codex lists has hit the table against other codex lists. Here are my preliminary observations:

1) Unlike GK the Thousand Sons codex gets the 'army of psykers' theme right. TS has access to 18 spells including some of the best in the game. Making the Wizard sergeants into real casters was also a great move, and the +6" to spell range is a both thematic, powerful and unique buff.

2) GW continues to struggle with costing elite infantry, and I think rubrics and scarabs will both need points reductions to be viable in a competitive setting. We saw the same pattern with plague marines and intercessors, both needing downwards adjustments post-codex.

3) Magnus has received a number of minor nerfs which, together with the changeling sledgehammer nerf, means we will see much less of him.

4) TS continues to struggle with good AT options. Las preds are a possibility, but they tend to die if you get 2nd turn.

5) The other HQ options in the TS codex are very good. Ahriman is a steal, and the TS Daemon prince is probably the best DP in the game. The stock DP model will need a lot of work before it looks anything like a TS model, though.

6) Tzaangors are pretty good, and the bray horn is like adrenal glands, but at only 10 points for the entire squad. They feel like a poor man's boyz, which is exactly what TS needs. Now we just need Flash Gitz to become a poor man's rubrics, then the Ork codex would be half done.

7) The relics and warlord traits are nice and varied, and I especially like the dark matter crystal. The Stratagems feels kind of boring, though.

I think the Codex is really well balanced. Which may be a problem.

I also think that you'd better like beaky angry blue people.

We have enough stuff that's great, so that we could probably leverage a competitive list out of the codex, but it would have only a few Thousand Sons in it (Ahriman and maybe a squad of SOTs). How you feel about that will determine how you feel about the codex. Me, I think it's cool, but I can see why some old grumbly grognards are unhappy about the Tzaangors' ascendency.

Yeah, the new Enlightened are crazy good, but one of the most expensive points/£ units in the game. Colour me shocked!

Finally, we have the most pimping Daemon Prince in the game now, which is awesome news, as it's succhhh a fun unit to play.

To conclude, the Codex is good, I'm excited about playing with it, and it's brought my Sons back to the top of my three armies, in terms of eagerness to get them on the table. I understand, however, some of the salt that's flowed - it's just that I refuse to sup from the sodium chloride cup.

grouchoben wrote:
I think the Codex is really well balanced. Which may be a problem.

I also think that you'd better like beaky angry blue people.

We have enough stuff that's great, so that we could probably leverage a competitive list out of the codex, but it would have only a few Thousand Sons in it (Ahriman and maybe a squad of SOTs). How you feel about that will determine how you feel about the codex. Me, I think it's cool, but I can see why some old grumbly grognards are unhappy about the Tzaangors' ascendency.

Yeah, the new Enlightened are crazy good, but one of the most expensive points/£ units in the game. Colour me shocked!

Finally, we have the most pimping Daemon Prince in the game now, which is awesome news, as it's succhhh a fun unit to play.

To conclude, the Codex is good, I'm excited about playing with it, and it's brought my Sons back to the top of my three armies, in terms of eagerness to get them on the table. I understand, however, some of the salt that's flowed - it's just that I refuse to sup from the sodium chloride cup.

I was of this stance as well. But the more time that went by the more the salt started to flow. It really was a cash grab codex it is looking like. Very little support or attention to the actual 1k sons and more on their pet birds.

To the OP. There is a 33+ page thread of salt on the front page (currently) which goes over everything is great detail. I am unsure if this was a codex inspired by pure cash grab on getting AoS kits to 40k players or if it was a rush job and hopefully we will get more attention in years to come. Either way, if you are a crunchy player than you better like collecting plastic blue Bird Men.

All in all, its certainly more than what we had last month and there are good sides to the codex. The magnus nerf was unneeded and he just required a points increase. I doubt you will ever see him in any tournament lists going forward, the risk of losing him to alpha strikes is just to much. His Defense getting lowered combined with the loss of Deep Strike have left him a big red target. I will still use him in normal games. But the salt that has flowed is mainly about the rubrics taking a back seat to blue birds. And it is understandable. A real problem is that Our mini dex of last year really rewarded and pushed hardcore for the player to stack rubrics to a insane degree. Many people built their forces such a way (including myself) and are now peeved they have to literally re buy the army to take advantage of al ot of the new dex.

Now GW is not a stranger to planned obsolescence and has made use of it many many many times in the past as a sales tactic. But I feel they went to far in this release. Rubrics SHOULD have had more focus, maybe not a 50/50 split but a lot more than what they got.

TLDR version. The bird is the word.

Honestly having played a full rubrics army, with the new rules, I'd say we're in a good place if you use the full range available to us, including FW.

I have a contemptor dread, leviathan dread and hellforged predator. They're great additions to any thousand sons army while still being fluffy additions to the army. Just yesterday I used a contemptor with multi-melta and deathclaw w/ soulburner to great success.

More variety would've been nice and Tzaangors are (sadly) a great addition to the army ruleswise, but they're not required to have a fun game.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...

I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?

Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.

I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.

This was a cash grab plain and simple. People shouldn't buy the codex or any of the models.

Tzaangors should be priced around 10-12 points but are still at 7. With 2 AURAS they are hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s ending up with a 97% hit ratio. 61 attacks on a 30 man squad. With little support they can be hitting with damn near every attack and Veterans of the long War stratagem allows them to wound everything on at least a five plus. A 10 man squad can put 5 wounds on a LR battle tank in one round of CC, given a full turn of CC they can severly cripple a 150 point model. 3 30 man squads can net you 244 S4 AP -1 attacks. Having casted 0 spells. You can Deepstrike all 3 on turn 1 if you want, or you can DS 1 unit at a time cast Glamour and Weaver on them making hyper durable for their points, and then warp time them in which all but guarantees the charge, have a mutalith buff the str and AP of the unit and now your getting 61 S5 AP-2 attacks which hit on 2s rerolling, on a T 4 model that has 1 wound and a 4+ invul save with a -1 to hit, for 7 PPM. 210 points for a 30 man squad.

How much damage can that unit do?

400 points of GEQ

830 points of MEQ

903 points vs TEQ

578 points of PM

976 points of RM

2 Landraiders a turn with wounds to spare.

You can do this 3 times in 1 game and pay less then 1 k points for everything you need. You would spend 4 CP per turn but have acess to a relic which gives you CP and can just bring cultists with Apostles to get a bunch of CP for cheap.

There are plunty of really good combos, in fact they are broken beyond belief. Just dont bring any kind of acutal TS in your TS army.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?

The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.

An 18" mortal wound bubble is nothing to sneeze at if you can roll the 3+.

Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.

SoT can have a SR and HMR in a squad of 5. CT get just the reaper in 5. I'm not sure you'd want to risk blowing up terminators with plasma (otherwise expensive babysitter required) so combi-melta it is, which is 53 points a model to SoT 40. 5 CT fully loaded is 263 (253 plasma). SoT come in at 239.

4 S8 AP4 DD6 and 4 S7 AP1 D1
or
8/16 S4 AP2, 4 S5 AP3, and 2 S8 AP2 DD3
PLUS a psyker

As mentioned above VotLW improves the SoT guns far more than the CT ones. SoT can re-deepstrike as well.

Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.

As a codex Tsons it has failed quite badly, there is no argument that will convince me otherwise here, it failed to provide some very easy changes in the lineup that didnt even require models, it focused too much on non Tson units to be called Codex Thousand sons.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!

As codex Tzeench Deamonkin I think it has succeeded quite convincingly, I like the Gors, I like Tsons, and I like the mix.

I've played three games so far with thousand sons dominated lists, using gors and daemons as auxiliary as I always do, and I'm very happy with it. Our psykers are flexible as they once we're in 7th but thankfully without the vast swathe of worthless options and 4-5 auto include powers. Rubrics could use 1-2 more interesting Stratagems, but their bread and butter Stratagems like Power-swap, Reroll to avoid perils, and Votlw all work very well for them.

You really see the impact of tzaangors because (in my experience at least) they're a tempo piece that causes huge damage turn 1, then dies because they're T4 5++. They do damage, then they die and the rubrics carry the game to completion in later turns.

The new codex is absolutely fantastic. No idea why people are complaining about it.

The book has so many good (or even great) units, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, relics and physchic powers... On top of that you get a whole range of awesome looking plastic models (which you can also use in Age of Sigmar). Seriously, what's not to like about it? In my opinion it is on par with the new Tyranids codex and way better designed than Death Guard (which is already quite a good codex). Combine it with the Chaos Daemons codex and you have a huge amount of competitive and cool options to choose from.

Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.

Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.

Magnus getting a few changes really puts him where he should be. He's still a powerhouse, but fighting him requires less bad rolling on the enemy armor saves to kill him. Much less luck dependent.

In short:
Psykers are now for 90% buff bots for shooting/assault units (tzaangors). Which in my opinion is unfluffy as for 40k thousand sons psykers (read: Exalted sorcerers).
Not how i want to play my thousand sons and certainly not why i bought them last year. So strong or weak codex it doesn't really matter to me. I've lost interest in their play style, so i stored everything i everything i own.

Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.

Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not

We shall see.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.

Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me

Have you looked at the codex?

We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scallywag wrote:
Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.

Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.

How are they good?

I agree the list potential is totally different. We are probably either the best or one of the best armies in the game if you run only Tzaangors and cultusts.

Tzaangors are good and one of the more competitive builds, but that doesn't invalidate other builds from existing. Plenty of people play for the fun of the game. Rubrics and Scarabs are not so broken that they are unusable. They are pretty good units, especially against certain matchups like armies that have a lot of 1D attacks.

This whole thing reminds me of Death Guard with all the buffs to Pox Walkers. So many people were coming out saying Pox Walker spam was the most viable build when it was released. Yet you really don't see that many of them played.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not

We shall see.

I'm still going to give it a shot

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.

Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me

Have you looked at the codex?

We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam

My apologies I should have specified, I had a balanced unit list in mind when I typed that.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.

Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me

Have you looked at the codex?

We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scallywag wrote:
Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.

Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.

How are they good?

I agree the list potential is totally different. We are probably either the best or one of the best armies in the game if you run only Tzaangors and cultusts.

Unlike most other Terminators, Scarabs are actually quite a good unit. They have really strong shooting attacks (especially when buffed) and can use Warptime to get into close combat (you can cast it with a +3/+4 bonus, making it highly reliable). They murder other infantry and can even kill vehicles. I plan to use a unit of 10 in a competitive list.

Rubrics are also not bad. Webway Infiltration, the ability to choose a spell, Veterans of the Long War and Prescience are all huge buffs for them. There might be some better options, but they are definitely playable.

Zhan wrote:
In short:
Psykers are now for 90% buff bots for shooting/assault units (tzaangors). Which in my opinion is unfluffy as for 40k thousand sons psykers (read: Exalted sorcerers).
Not how i want to play my thousand sons and certainly not why i bought them last year. So strong or weak codex it doesn't really matter to me. I've lost interest in their play style, so i stored everything i everything i own.

The last time I saw someone play Magnus with the new rules, he used Infernal Gateway with a +4 to cast and dropped 19 mortal wounds on a clump of units.

You can still use psykers for offensive purposes. It's even easier now with 6 offensive spells to choose from even outside of smite. And they're useful for stuff that shooting doesn't do, like sniping characters and dropping summoned spawn directly into close combat.

Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.

Wayniac wrote:
Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.

As many times as I've seen the HELBRUTE versus Helbrute question brought up on Facebook, I believe that the 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem works exactly as intended. We'll find out for sure next month.

 Ghaz wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.

As many times as I've seen the HELBRUTE versus Helbrute question brought up on Facebook, I believe that the 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem works exactly as intended. We'll find out for sure next month.

Using Fire Frenzy on a Leviathan with dual butcher arrays is brutal.

Reading trough the codex right now and my first impression is: "I'm going to have a lot of fun with this codex."

It's probably not a codex for the WAAC-player who attend tournaments and there are some missed opportunities, but I'm very much looking forward to play my Thousand Sons again.

It looks like a great codex to me overall.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Reading trough the codex right now and my first impression is: "I'm going to have a lot of fun with this codex."

It's probably not a codex for the WAAC-player who attend tournaments and there are some missed opportunities, but I'm very much looking forward to play my Thousand Sons again.

Nothing so egregious that they can't fix with an FAQ, too. All is well.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...

I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?

Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.

I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.

Look, I get that many people are disappointed that GW focused more on the Tzaangors and mutant stuff than the classic Rubrics, but really....how anyone with even the slightest hint of competitive background could think this codex is Grey Knight tier is beyond my comprehension.

a) Daemon Princes are top units for Chaos in general and we have the best ones hands down thanks to the mix of a nice defensive buff (4+ invulnerable save) and uniquely casting and knowing an extra power, with access to three disciplines.
b) When did Tzaangors have the Daemon keyword? Besides, the Enlightened and Shaman have it. In any case, Tzaangors are absurdly good if you stack buffs on them, they are point for point one of the deadlier units in the game if you support them right. We even get the cheapest fight-twice stratagem in the game at 2CP on a unit (Tzaangors) that is already hyper efficient without it.
c) Enlightened are flexible and very points efficient, harder to kill than a regular Space Marine with double the mobility, far superior shooting and combat, etc all for only a few points more.
d) Mutaliths are at worst a cheap distraction unit that buffs your combat units, at best they are a terror on the battlefield if your opponent doesn't properly deal with them; drop it to half its total wounds and suddenly it starts slinging mortal wounds to every unit within 18" on a 3+, rolled once. Besides, it mega-buffs Tzaangors, Pink Horrors and pretty much any other Tzeentch combat unit you can think of.
e) Compare an Exalted Sorcerer to a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer. For a pittance in points you get the best of both worlds, casting two powers a turn and providing re-roll 1s to-hit. They might be inefficient next to Daemon Princes but that's because Princes are just that damned good.
f) Thousand Sons have crazy alpha strike potential, especially if you ally in Tzeentch Daemons. You can mimic the Bloodletter bomb with Tzaangors buffed by Warptime, you can clear chaff with Horrors or you can devastate anything in range with either Scarab Occult or Rubrics buffed by Prescience, Veterans of the Long War and re-roll 1s to-hit.
g) We get all the power stratagems of Chaos Space Marines (Daemonforge, Veterans of the Long War, etc) and some of our unique ones are really good, particularly the Webway stratagem.
h) Most flexible psykers in the entire game. 18 powers across three disciplines. A 1CP stratagem that allows any of our psykers to take any of those 18 powers. Two psykers capable of casting 3 powers each, 4 with a stratagem.
i) A severely under-priced special character (Ahriman) and a modestly priced special character that unlocks a nasty build that, while not top-tier tournament worthy, can still do really well against armies without the means to deal with it (Magnus).
j) Two extremely good relics when some armies are lucky enough to have one good one. The Dark Matter Crystal and Helm of the Third Eye are both near auto-includes, spending 1CP to take both will nearly always net you that CP back thanks to the Helm, and the Crystal gives you incredible mid-game deployment flexibility.
k) A great selection of Warlord Traits. You can either mega-buff a Daemon Prince or make a Terminator Sorcerer a baby Magnus/Ahriman for his first/subsequent psychic tests.
l) Lots of cross-army synergy with Tzeentch Daemons.
m) Able to more reliably buff power units like Fire Raptors thanks to psychic dominance.
n) A legion trait that rewards positioning and can invalidate a lot of classic anti-psyker defences.

The army is damned competitive. A lot of it is indeed down to Tzaangors and synergy between certain units, but underestimating just how strong this codex can be if used in the right hands is a grave mistake.
Rubrics and Scarabs could have used slight tweaks but, when you compare Scarabs to other Terminators and Rubrics to certain other elite infantry, both are in a decent spot. Psyker squad leaders are actually useful now to a degree, both units benefit a lot from psychic and stratagem buffs compared to many other units and Rubrics in particular gained the ability to Deep Strike. Tack on the Dark Matter Crystal removing one such unit from combat and depositing it where you need and the future of these two units is way brighter than it was prior to the codex even if the buffs are not as readily apparent. Lack of a unique stratagem for them sucks but given that they get such huge benefits from Veterans of the Long War and Chaos Familiar, I'm alright with that.

Not super happy that I'll need to get more Cultists and/or start getting Tzangors; running out of room as it is, and I had hoped that I would be fine getting 30k stuff and using it in 40k without needing a truckload of additional minis.

Oh well, now to decide between grungy Cultists, Guardsmen as "counts as" Cultists, and detail heavy Tzangors that require that I learn blending.

I can't beleive this.

People ecstatic to play thier TS army.

Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are overpriced).

No points change at all to Rubrics.

Tzaangors are now massively OP.

What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?