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I know it is, but non soup armies are dicked. Orks Tau nids crons they can't wombo combo stuff as easy or at all. But either way we digress from the topic of the sons lol

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I know it is, but non soup armies are dicked. Orks Tau nids crons they can't wombo combo stuff as easy or at all. But either way we digress from the topic of the sons lol

Nids can soup. Yesterday I played against a Nid list that had three Leman Russ tanks in it.

Tau, Orks, and Crons don't have soup lists, true, but they also don't have codexes yet. Perhaps they will be brought up to par, or even given soup options as the edition progresses.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Tzaangor bomb dropping in with the Shaman is definitely interesting (it should at least be very consistent when used appropriately), but the codex feels like a one-trick pony.

You can't deepstrike the shaman. Not by stratagem nor by relic.

However, I'm still not seeing any of the other units in the army bringing something to the table that can't be done better with another Legion, so consequently, they will at best get a detachment in my army, and they are certainly not a priority.
I'm not seeing a lot of math supporting the idea that Rubrics or Scarabs are worth fielding.

I think you've over estimated what Tzaangors will do by comparison, but at least you're not going full bore with them.

There are also some vehicle plus buff based strategies worth considering.

Not having soup isn't necessarily causing you to be at a disadvantage. Look at Eldar...

Daedalus81 wrote:
You can't deepstrike the shaman. Not by stratagem nor by relic.

I think you've over estimated what Tzaangors will do by comparison, but at least you're not going full bore with them.

Good catch on the Shaman, given that he's not infantry. That's really problematic actually, the consistency he provides to the Tzaangors was really where I thought they got the most bang for the buck. Running Enlightened around with him and using Prescience is good, but just feels a bit too fragile and gimmicky to be consistent.

I'll have to re-think that, I was trying to find something that would replace my Alpha Legion Battalion without losing too much effectiveness. I don't think Ahriman and the Daemon Prince are bringing enough to the table by themselves to justify including a TS detachment right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hoodwink wrote:
Not having soup isn't necessarily causing you to be at a disadvantage. Look at Eldar...

All the Eldar lists that made the top 8 at LVO were soup IIRC.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Good catch on the Shaman, given that he's not infantry. That's really problematic actually, the consistency he provides to the Tzaangors was really where I thought they got the most bang for the buck. Running Enlightened around with him and using Prescience is good, but just feels a bit too fragile and gimmicky to be consistent..

On the other hand, do you really need to deepstrike him?
12" move, D6" advance and 6" range on the aura means whatever you want to be within aura-range on turn 1 will be with some careful positioning.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
Not having soup isn't necessarily causing you to be at a disadvantage. Look at Eldar...

All the Eldar lists that made the top 8 at LVO were soup IIRC.

Yes but do you really think forcing them to change one Ynnari detachment to a Craftworlds detachment would have so utterly crippled their armies that they would have toppled from the top spots in a heap of defeat?

The Ynnari detachments they included did up their power level, but were not required. If no one could soup, those same lists would be at the top, minus one special ability per turn.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes but do you really think forcing them to change one Ynnari detachment to a Craftworlds detachment would have so utterly crippled their armies that they would have toppled from the top spots in a heap of defeat?

The Ynnari detachments they included did up their power level, but were not required. If no one could soup, those same lists would be at the top, minus one special ability per turn.

I am a soup fan, first of all.

No, I don't think it would have crippled CWE, certainly not existing within a no-soup paradigm.

Anyhow, this is kind of off-topic, except in that Thousand Sons may arguably only be useful as a soup detachment. Running them pure, they start to match up really badly against most other codices, but perhaps we'll all find something amazing that fixes all that.

TPT, I think that's deliberate.

Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).

I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
TPT, I think that's deliberate.

Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).

I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.

No, I agree.

At this point I'm just struggling to find a reason to even build a single Thousand Sons detachment. I just don't value what they're bringing to the table.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
TPT, I think that's deliberate.

Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).

I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.

No, I agree.

At this point I'm just struggling to find a reason to even build a single Thousand Sons detachment. I just don't value what they're bringing to the table.

*shrug*

I feel the same way about every army I don't play. Why would I bring a detachment of Grey Knights with my Astra Militarum? I'm not that scared of Daemons. Why would I bring any Custodes? I don't need them and they're expensive. Why would I bring sisters of silence? Etc. etc.
What one "values" in their armies is subjective. I know this because other people value different things than I.

I think the best thing to take from the t sons aside from tzaangors would be a supreme command detatchment.

I am immensely, immensely happy with the new codex. Most people (including myself) are either beginners to the hobby or amateurs. This codex is incredible in that regard and while it is not massively competitive, it works to the new lore of TS, it sells GW models and gets people interested in aos as a biproduct. Non-competitive lists for TS are way more fun with more variability and not relying on getting a single spell off to do anything. In amateur games, Magnus was too much of a powerhouse that most people simply cannot deal with due to the inflexibility of their lists or lack of certain battlefield roles. I love tzaangors, their rules are great and alongside the mutalith this book shines. The great flexibility of things to choose from in terms of models, options, powers, relics, traits etc Have made this army a joy to play. As a person who plays more than a few games a month, with not a lot of models (yet) this book is just fantastic. The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)

In short, I don't see what's wrong with this so either suck it up or actually play games in a fun setting rather and a fun way rather than powerplaying everything. Lay off the

I like tsons a lot with this codex, putting them with a small group of tzeench deamons has worked well for me so far. And I am not using tzaangors, just rubrics, cultists, sorcerers (exalted and normal), and heavy units like forgefiend and defiler.

There are many forces that soup well, and I think tsons is a good option.

 fwlr wrote:
The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)

Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).

Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.

I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?

The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)

Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).

Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.

I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?

The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.

The answer to the on foot shaman and enlightened is because GW does not make models for them. The vortex beast is a bag of mixed nuts because it can either pay off big or be a waste really depends. And it's not that pillow fisted, dibilical str, your swinging 12 str 9 attacks into your enemy.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)

Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).

Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.

I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?

The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.

Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?

 MinscS2 wrote:


On the other hand, do you really need to deepstrike him?
12" move, D6" advance and 6" range on the aura means whatever you want to be within aura-range on turn 1 will be with some careful positioning.

It depends on where you need your Tzaangors need to be.

Problem #1) The placement of your Shaman determines where your Tzaangors can possibly be effective. If your opponent has enough drops you might not have any idea where to place him effectively.
Problem #2) You'll need to leave a tail, which could significantly reduce attacks in base.
Problem #3) You've stranded the Shaman and if you don't clear chaff there is a good chance they can make a counter strike and take out the Tzaangor support. He is only T4 4W 5++ after all.

Spoletta wrote:
Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?

I mean, at a basic level, a squad of 5 Scarabs with a Heavy Weapon will be ~220 points depending on which heavy weapon you choose.

For an additional 45 points, all of those are CSM Terminators with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes. Hell, give them the Mark of Tzeentch also so that your CSM Tzeentch Sorcerer can cast Weaver of Fates on them if you want, but really, you'd probably make them Slaanesh so you can double-tap.

Assuming that you're planning to Deep Strike in both cases (which means you'll be taking a Soulreaper Cannon instead of a Warpflamer), the CSM Terminators are effective against a wider range of targets than the Scarabs, by a long shot.

Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.

Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.

All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.

Hoodwink wrote:
Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.

Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.

All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.

Eh here is the problem with that, mind you, a fully loaded SOT is just a few points more the a full 10 man rubric squad. Let's say we are shooting T7 that's gonna be 16 rapid fire shots, assuming perfect statistics it comes out to 3 wounds from the bolter which in a game were everything has a ++ not that threatening. The other problem is all is dust is over kill on them, because they already have a 2 up so your opponant would already be shooting them with multi damage/multi AP weapons. The reason it's good on rubrics is because it forces your opponant to waste wither high AP or multi wound weapons on single wound models.

This ultimately comes down to may main issue with rubrics and sot, they are basically the same unit filling the same role.


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They are both anti meq killers. Why take SOT when rubrics are just as powerful and more survivable.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?

I mean, at a basic level, a squad of 5 Scarabs with a Heavy Weapon will be ~220 points depending on which heavy weapon you choose.

For an additional 45 points, all of those are CSM Terminators with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes. Hell, give them the Mark of Tzeentch also so that your CSM Tzeentch Sorcerer can cast Weaver of Fates on them if you want, but really, you'd probably make them Slaanesh so you can double-tap.

Assuming that you're planning to Deep Strike in both cases (which means you'll be taking a Soulreaper Cannon instead of a Warpflamer), the CSM Terminators are effective against a wider range of targets than the Scarabs, by a long shot.

What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?

5 CSM termies, PA, PCB = 245
5 SoT, Force Staff, 4x PS, 4x ICB, 1x Soulreaper, 1x HMR = 239

*all in double tap range

Against GEQ
CSM - 4.4 //no OC needed
SoT - 8.9 w/o using HMR

Against MEQ
CSM - 4.6 // 1-2 dead from OC
SoT - 5 w/o HMR

Against T7 3+
CSM - 7.4 // 1-2 dead from OC
**CSM Slaanesh score less than double this and lose more models when using stratagem
SoT - 4.3 w/ HMR
SoT w/ VotLW - 6.1

So, sure they're weaker against tanks, but don't kill themselves or require support for it and have tools to excel beyond those numbers.

Hoodwink wrote:
Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.

Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.

All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.

What additional Sorcerer? I'd probably Deep Strike them with a Chaos Lord or Abaddon if I fielded them (to be fair this entire line of discussion is kind of disingenuous on my part since I think Terminators are garbage also) if I was going to use them.

Survivability in the current meta is overcosted outside of Characters, yes, many times you'll be able to really make use of All is Dust, but the opportunity cost to completely negate it's effects is minimal. For example, my CSM Termies go full power on plasma and don't care one lick about All is Dust, then they turn next turn and unload on that T8 Land Raider, pop Veterans and light it up. SoTs are borderline useless against anything T8. Honestly, a 5 man squad of Scions would erase them and not think twice about it, for probably less than half the cost.

Also, I take a penalty to hit, but I have the same volume of fire with CSM Termies if I want it, and half of it is S7 or S8 and multi-wound.


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Daedalus81 wrote:
What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?

I'm assuming that's a wash between the two squads really, I assume if you're investing that much in a squad you're dropping some kind of HQ alongside them. So I'm assuming they'll be able to re-roll 1s to hit at least.

If we're talking about what I consider the highly unlikely and honestly kind of questionable scenario of deep striking them naked then yes, I probably wouldn't be as free with high power.

But hey, if you like dropping 250 points on your opponent's doorstep all alone, be my guest.

I've been playing around with a TSons detachment (mostly to get the free relic since I tend to go stratagem heavy with my builds) that consists of:

Prince w/Wings - Helm, Otherworldly Presence
Ahriman on Disc
30x Tzaangors - Blades, Brayhorn
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
2x Tzaangor Shaman
6x Tzaangor Enlightened w/Greatbows

It's been a nice addition to my chaos soup list giving me a nice big buff machine unit to drop in to create more pressure.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I've been playing around with a TSons detachment (mostly to get the free relic since I tend to go stratagem heavy with my builds) that consists of:

Prince w/Wings - Helm, Otherworldly Presence
Ahriman on Disc
30x Tzaangors - Blades, Brayhorn
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
2x Tzaangor Shaman
6x Tzaangor Enlightened w/Greatbows

It's been a nice addition to my chaos soup list giving me a nice big buff machine unit to drop in to create more pressure.

I went DP w/ Wings, Ahriman on foot, 30x Tzaangors (not sold on a loadout yet) Brayhorn, Shaman, 2x Cultists to fill a Battalion. I have to spend an extra CP for the Helm since I am unwilling to gimp my army with a TS Warlord trait when Daemonspark is out there.

Makes sense, and I've tinkered with daemonspark as well which is obviously rock solid. The biggest thing is right now my demon portion of my list is actually a big ball of pbears with supporting heralds - they don't kill much but they get there quick and tie things down really effectively.

Overall my impression of the book so far (haven't got to play yet) is I like it. I actually like the Tzaagors and how they are expanded to new units as to me this makes the TS feel less like a CSM;but not really, type book. I really want to get the Enlightened, but they are some serious $$ for 9 of them. We got some great stratagems (webway, VoLW, double attacked for gors), and I like our relics and warlord traits. Getting inferno bolters on the terminator sorcerer is great, and I love the familiar option for that extra +1 on the first spell per round. Over all I think this book will be good for the way I play (I don't do tournaments with highly competitive lists). That said there are a few things that I feel are miss opportunities:

First Rubrics and SoT are still over priced. All terminators are overpriced, so that will probably not work itself out any time soon, but everyone knows that the Rubrics are like a point or two to much from the CSM book. This is especially true in light of a plague marine being 17 points.

They should have improved SoT a bit for their points. All is Dust doesn't do a lot for them as they have two wounds so draw a lot of multi-damage fire, so they really should have had their All is Dust being damage 1 and 2 weapons. Also, why do they not have a 4+ invul?

I love the Tzaagors, but we still don't have enough units in fast attack and elites. I would really have liked a Rubric Dreadnought, and/or some kind of daemon walker fast attack. We only have three elites (one of which is a character), and two fast attacks (not including daemons which ruin battle forged). They really need like 2 more fast and one more elite.

Finally, I agree with everyone that I would like to have seen a Rubric/SoT stratagem or two. Something like damage 2 for inferno bolters for 3 cp or all is dust can be used on any damage level, would have been nice.

Overall though I am just glad that we are not stuck with the index anymore, and hopefully they will put out some models in the near future after all the Codex are released.

Above post is pretty spot on, a think a good buff for SoT is making them able to cast 2 powers, also give exaulted the option to tap into daemon spells.

 xeen wrote:
Overall though I am just glad that we are not stuck with the index anymore, and hopefully they will put out some models in the near future after all the Codex are released.

This is my honest hope for all the mini-dexes (half-assed codices, lazy dexes, repackaging and marketing exercises, pick one), that once all the dexes are out we'll see supplement books that won't be tied to a single faction, but will contain a few things for multiple factions. Something like a Battle for Armageddon supplement that had a collection of Astra Militarum/World Eaters/Ork/Space Marines units/strats/relics or a Doom of the Eldar supplement that had a collection of Tyranid/GSC/Aeldari/Drukhari/Ynnari units/strats/relics.

No, please, don't tie "Stratagems" and "Relics" to campaings, etc... thats how you broke the game and make people carry even MORE books.

Do you want to make campaing books? Fine. Give them special rules for narrative play, to use scenarios, campaings, etc... and bring new untis with new rules. But not "general" things that you need for your army.

If a campaing book brings new units, I can buy the units that come with the rules in the box. But if it brings new stratagems, warlord traits, relics, etc... I need to buy that even if I'm not interested in the campaing.