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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?

I'm assuming that's a wash between the two squads really, I assume if you're investing that much in a squad you're dropping some kind of HQ alongside them. So I'm assuming they'll be able to re-roll 1s to hit at least.

If we're talking about what I consider the highly unlikely and honestly kind of questionable scenario of deep striking them naked then yes, I probably wouldn't be as free with high power.

But hey, if you like dropping 250 points on your opponent's doorstep all alone, be my guest.

That's fine and if we assume they're equally supported SoT still come out on top versus infantry PLUS they have a sorcerer and a generally better save. And you can still fail 1 in 36, which when firing 10 shots at a time isn't impossible.

The picture isn't as cut and dry as you indicate.

 xeen wrote:

I love the Tzaagors, but we still don't have enough units in fast attack and elites. I would really have liked a Rubric Dreadnought, and/or some kind of daemon walker fast attack. We only have three elites (one of which is a character), and two fast attacks (not including daemons which ruin battle forged). They really need like 2 more fast and one more elite.

Enlightened with Spears and Bows are so different and fulfill different battlefield roles that one could argue that it's two different units crammed into one datasheet.
No one would bat an eyelid if it was two separate datasheets, one for Tzaangor Enlightened (spears) and one for Tzaangor Skyfires (bows) just like it is in AoS, and just like Mutilators and Obliterators are technically the same unit but with different weapons.

But I agree that we could do with at least 1 more Elite and 1 more Fast Attack.

Generally I'd say it's an excellent codex. Probably one of the best space marine codices so far, albeit mostly because you can run it with a minimum of actual marines which I'm sure will annoy some.

The area that I think deserves particular praise is the psychic ability. Between two characters, a warlord trait, a stratagem, and the terminator sorcerer you have a lot of ways to boost psychic performance, plus 18 spells to pick from. That's exactly what they needed.

Personally, I've started focusing on a gor heavy army as my next project as I really like what they've done. Though I've always been a sucker for chaos hordes, like my R&H last edition.

I think it is a great codex, the use of finesse, deception and the tools available are the way to go. its not a push a win button codex that's for sure though it seems geared toward the forward thinking seasoned player.

I realize not everyone is happy with the dex though the new units and direction seem a natural organic growth of the army. It seems there are lots of effective builds in the army, the utility of them of course depends on play style and meta.

I guess I am in the wait and see camp and I am hearing a mix of things from games not all good though a lot of them positive.

When I first got into Thousand Sons years ago I was all about the Rubrics. When WoM came out I realized it was all about the spell casters. When 8th dropped everyone was pretty vanilla and limited though with the new dex our spell casters, with all the new toys are center stage again. My new lists I am building are all psycher heavy. I don't get to play that much anymore so this is all theory on my part and I look the applications of others for hard data until I can get some games in.

Daedalus81 wrote:


That's fine and if we assume they're equally supported SoT still come out on to gp versus infantry PLUS they have a sorcerer and a generally better save. And you can still fail 1 in 36, which when firing 10 shots at a time isn't impossible.

The picture isn't as cut and dry as you indicate.

Probably not, but given the choice, CSM Termies are a toolbox and SoT are a tool. This also doesn't take into account hand-to-hand, where CSM Termies are also pretty clearly better, even at a base level (Power Axe > Power Sword).

Anyhow, Thousand Sons are still pretty underwhelming to me:

They have a bomb, it's not bad, but I don't think it's better than any of the various other bombs available, and in some ways it's worse.
They have the same cultists everyone else has.
They have overcosted marines.
They have good psykers and a great daemon prince.
They have a good fast attack unit.
Their heavy support section is a complete waste of time.

They have enough to justify a spot or two in a mixed detachment if you want specific buffs, but that's about it, the rest of it is done better by other units within the same faction. You might make an argument for a small detachment so you can get the Helm of the Third Eye, but that's stretching.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Probably not, but given the choice, CSM Termies are a toolbox and SoT are a tool. This also doesn't take into account hand-to-hand, where CSM Termies are also pretty clearly better, even at a base level (Power Axe > Power Sword).

I won't belabor the point after this post, because it's clear I won't change your mind so this is more for the fence sitters.

SoT are very much better at killing infantry. Plasma termies will definitely be better at killing tanks, but for every time you spend 2CP I can get two turns at +1 to wound.

If they somehow face each other SoT facing power axes is incredibly ideal or the majority of melee weapons for that matter.

CSM
10 * .666 * .666 *.333 = 1.5 wounds

SoT
8 * .666 * .5 *.666 = 1.8 wounds
2 * .666 * .5 * .333 * 2 = 0.6 wounds

They have a bomb, it's not bad, but I don't think it's better than any of the various other bombs available, and in some ways it's worse. Agreed
They have the same cultists everyone else has. But only really good as dead weight.
They have overcosted marines. Agreed
They have good psykers and a great daemon prince. Agreed
They have a good fast attack unit. Agreed
Their heavy support section is a complete waste of time .I think this will shape up a little differently as people explore combos, but we'll have to wait and see.

Most people run hellforged stuff for the heavy support slots, they can take all the keywords buffs etc so we really arent lacking there at all just my 2cents

It's a rushed codex to be honest. It's very small, they obviously did not want to make new models but also did not have enough for a standalone army, so they improvised. they looked around, saw what looks Tzeentchy enough and tossed it in the book. The faults are apparent, namely how you can have horrors, flamers, screamers but not heralds?(!) Or how you have 2 fast options in the whole book and neither of them are marine related. Or how you just can't have oblits or havocs any more. Or how they suggested different "cults" aka paintschemes, and they are all cyan/blue/purple with gold, except the one that is gold with blue. The whole book looks like a rushed attempt to convince everyone that there is a standalone book. Only the depth is really not in there and it shows.

The push to sell goats is also apparent to everyone. It's not just that they are better than the power armor options, it's that they are quite under costed, especially the enlightened. That being said, this is what we get, and we better have a rushed book rather than no book I guess. So in close up inspection:

Rubrics were never stellar and it only stands to reason that they will not be good this time either. They are a little bit cheaper but they don't have 4++ any more either so there's that. The aspiring sorcerers are a joke at this point, bad smite and the first Perils takes away half of the unit (no, really). Nobody is going to be casting with the Aspiring Sorcs now, so them being psykers does not really mean anything. And the whole unit is about as flexible as a brick. You can get a standard model or you can get a 33 pt flamer dude with 5" move. 33 pts. One flamer dude. Wot. All is dust is great, though. Perhaps greater than people realize at this point. 5 man strong dudes in cover holding an objective are going to be seriously impossible to shift, unless the opponents goes for really bad choices. So there's that I suppose. 5 basic dudes in a ruin for 110ish points. Not really sure how they are going to get there with 5" move though.

Scarabs are weird. First of all, they are terminators, and terminators of all flavors are bad at the moment. With that out of the way, they are not very bad costed (for terminators) and their guns are seriously badass (4 shots per dude with ap-2 straight out of deepstriking, possibly with reroll 1's and that's before any spells). The fact that you can redeploy them is also great, if they survive of course. The aspiring sorc this time is not bad, because it does only die half of the time when he perils, and only kills like one more extra dude. Somehow bearable. Still he probably needed to be able to cast twice, but then again he's free and he has a force staff which is 3 damage which is nice. They also have the most stupidly counter intuitive rule ever with All is dust. On a 2 wound model with a 2+ save already. Which means that it's equally useless against any multidamage weapons (which would be expected to target the scarab as they are multiwound models) AND useless against bolters, which is the kind of weapons All is dust was supposed to be protecting against (!?!). Overall, smells like GW were not really thinking when creating either of our two iconic units. Still badass models though.

Bright point for all aspiring sorcs: They can really really make great use of a plasma pistol. It's fairly cheap, and with the multiple sources for reroll 1's they can go overcharge happy all the time. I would seriously put a plasma pistol in each and everyone Aspiring sorcerer I play.

Then comes the overcrowded HQ slot, with Magnus, Ahriman, DP, Exalted, Sorc, Termi Sorc. 6 options for HQ, 2 options for fast attack. Nice job, GW. Also, 6 options for HQ and no dark apostle or warpsmith. Or even herald of Tzeentch. So basically 6 flavors of sorcerers with different point costs. Noice. "Would you like the chocolate icecream with chocolate toppings and chocolate syrup, sir? We can put it on a chocolate cone for you and give you a chocolate spoon to enjoy."

Daemon units also don't make much sense. We get horrors but not heralds, DP's but not loci, we get Flamers of Tzeentch when flamers is they only other weapon option we actually have aside from boltguns. We don't get flaming chariots when we are in serious need for mobility. Just why?

And then come the goats. The problem with them is that they manage to fill up all the holes existing before. So now we can't really complain any more, because we really got what was missing. Shock attack troops, body count, decent hth alpha strikes, really good and cheap fast attack harassers. Only we have to stray away from what the faction actually is in order to do that. Oh well. I have been collecting models for 17 years now. I own 6 armies between WHFB and 40k, including 15k point Tyranid armies and 5-6k beastmen. I already own enough goats for a lifetime, I will not be purchasing any more, no matter how badly GW wants me to.

Heavy support slot has to be the most generic and default list ever. It probably took them 5 mins in a meeting room to decide. "how about heavy support?" -"Just the usual. But take away all the oblits and havocs. They are not TS enough" -"but sir, we just added goats and they are not TS enough eith.." -"Just write "goats exist in sorcerer planets for many years". This should fix it. Ok Larry, what's next?"

Overall, if we want to leave aside the disillusionment and the salt altogether, where does the TS book lie? Basically where it was before. Not going to be played at tournaments, gonna be ok in local games, except psychic phase is going to take a lot of time and sometimes annoy people. GW did not invent nor re-invent the wheel with this one. They just reused an old wheel and added some sparkles so it feels less old. Pretty good job if the purpose is to meet the delivery date for "all new codecs in a single year". I would guess that the guy responsible got promoted for delivering the fastest codex of the decade.

Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.

Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.

More or less agreed on all counts, although Magnus comes from a LoW spot still, so at least he's not crowding the HQ. I tried to find a place for a TS detachment in my competitive lists, but it failed to make the cut. The Tzaangor bomb just isn't good enough or different enough to be worth investing in a detachment and while Enlightened appear really good, they're still a fragile, low model count squad that's going to grab a lot of attention.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
It's a rushed codex to be honest. It's very small, they obviously did not want to make new models but also did not have enough for a standalone army, so they improvised. they looked around, saw what looks Tzeentchy enough and tossed it in the book. The faults are apparent, namely how you can have horrors, flamers, screamers but not heralds?(!) Or how you have 2 fast options in the whole book and neither of them are marine related. Or how you just can't have oblits or havocs any more. Or how they suggested different "cults" aka paintschemes, and they are all cyan/blue/purple with gold, except the one that is gold with blue. The whole book looks like a rushed attempt to convince everyone that there is a standalone book. Only the depth is really not in there and it shows.

The push to sell goats is also apparent to everyone. It's not just that they are better than the power armor options, it's that they are quite under costed, especially the enlightened. That being said, this is what we get, and we better have a rushed book rather than no book I guess. So in close up inspection:

Rubrics were never stellar and it only stands to reason that they will not be good this time either. They are a little bit cheaper but they don't have 4++ any more either so there's that. The aspiring sorcerers are a joke at this point, bad smite and the first Perils takes away half of the unit (no, really). Nobody is going to be casting with the Aspiring Sorcs now, so them being psykers does not really mean anything. And the whole unit is about as flexible as a brick. You can get a standard model or you can get a 33 pt flamer dude with 5" move. 33 pts. One flamer dude. Wot. All is dust is great, though. Perhaps greater than people realize at this point. 5 man strong dudes in cover holding an objective are going to be seriously impossible to shift, unless the opponents goes for really bad choices. So there's that I suppose. 5 basic dudes in a ruin for 110ish points. Not really sure how they are going to get there with 5" move though.

Scarabs are weird. First of all, they are terminators, and terminators of all flavors are bad at the moment. With that out of the way, they are not very bad costed (for terminators) and their guns are seriously badass (4 shots per dude with ap-2 straight out of deepstriking, possibly with reroll 1's and that's before any spells). The fact that you can redeploy them is also great, if they survive of course. The aspiring sorc this time is not bad, because it does only die half of the time when he perils, and only kills like one more extra dude. Somehow bearable. Still he probably needed to be able to cast twice, but then again he's free and he has a force staff which is 3 damage which is nice. They also have the most stupidly counter intuitive rule ever with All is dust. On a 2 wound model with a 2+ save already. Which means that it's equally useless against any multidamage weapons (which would be expected to target the scarab as they are multiwound models) AND useless against bolters, which is the kind of weapons All is dust was supposed to be protecting against (!?!). Overall, smells like GW were not really thinking when creating either of our two iconic units. Still badass models though.

Bright point for all aspiring sorcs: They can really really make great use of a plasma pistol. It's fairly cheap, and with the multiple sources for reroll 1's they can go overcharge happy all the time. I would seriously put a plasma pistol in each and everyone Aspiring sorcerer I play.

Then comes the overcrowded HQ slot, with Magnus, Ahriman, DP, Exalted, Sorc, Termi Sorc. 6 options for HQ, 2 options for fast attack. Nice job, GW. Also, 6 options for HQ and no dark apostle or warpsmith. Or even herald of Tzeentch. So basically 6 flavors of sorcerers with different point costs. Noice. "Would you like the chocolate icecream with chocolate toppings and chocolate syrup, sir? We can put it on a chocolate cone for you and give you a chocolate spoon to enjoy."

Daemon units also don't make much sense. We get horrors but not heralds, DP's but not loci, we get Flamers of Tzeentch when flamers is they only other weapon option we actually have aside from boltguns. We don't get flaming chariots when we are in serious need for mobility. Just why?

And then come the goats. The problem with them is that they manage to fill up all the holes existing before. So now we can't really complain any more, because we really got what was missing. Shock attack troops, body count, decent hth alpha strikes, really good and cheap fast attack harassers. Only we have to stray away from what the faction actually is in order to do that. Oh well. I have been collecting models for 17 years now. I own 6 armies between WHFB and 40k, including 15k point Tyranid armies and 5-6k beastmen. I already own enough goats for a lifetime, I will not be purchasing any more, no matter how badly GW wants me to.

Heavy support slot has to be the most generic and default list ever. It probably took them 5 mins in a meeting room to decide. "how about heavy support?" -"Just the usual. But take away all the oblits and havocs. They are not TS enough" -"but sir, we just added goats and they are not TS enough eith.." -"Just write "goats exist in sorcerer planets for many years". This should fix it. Ok Larry, what's next?"

Overall, if we want to leave aside the disillusionment and the salt altogether, where does the TS book lie? Basically where it was before. Not going to be played at tournaments, gonna be ok in local games, except psychic phase is going to take a lot of time and sometimes annoy people. GW did not invent nor re-invent the wheel with this one. They just reused an old wheel and added some sparkles so it feels less old. Pretty good job if the purpose is to meet the delivery date for "all new codecs in a single year". I would guess that the guy responsible got promoted for delivering the fastest codex of the decade.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.

Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.

Gimme -2/-3 pts per rubric and I will be the happiest man alive. Toss in some Perils protection (even from a stratagem would do) and I would personally give the author a massage. Or hire someone actually handsome/pretty to do it for me. Don't want it to be a punishment now do we?

I will agree though that them putting daemons into the codex was really weird because all of them are super awkward. Like the only thing your gonna get buffed by is the vortex beast, at which point again your gonna wanna run with tzaangors. I suppose the only thing taht makes sense is, you use them to get summoned in? Im not sure, its really strange since they dont have the T sons key word or anything. Its like someone said, it feels like they just threw them into the codex for flavor text and thats about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.

Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.

Gimme -2/-3 pts per rubric and I will be the happiest man alive. Toss in some Perils protection (even from a stratagem would do) and I would personally give the author a massage. Or hire someone actually handsome/pretty to do it for me. Don't want it to be a punishment now do we?

Oh i am SO with you there on dropping rubric prices. they do have some perils protection, but again, you need to bring magnus, as his rules says, re-roll rolls of 1 when taking a psyker test. That and if you combo him with the cabal strat, you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.

Still the biggest thing i think that needs to be addressed in the codex, aside from our heavy support, is the scarab occult vs rubric, they literally do the exact same job, at almost the same price, but the rubrics have more staying power. I really think they need to bring back instant death rules for force weapons and make the SoT able to cast 2 powers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Oh i am SO with you there on dropping rubric prices. they do have some perils protection, but again, you need to bring magnus, as his rules says, re-roll rolls of 1 when taking a psyker test. That and if you combo him with the cabal strat, you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.

Still the biggest thing i think that needs to be addressed in the codex, aside from our heavy support, is the scarab occult vs rubric, they literally do the exact same job, at almost the same price, but the rubrics have more staying power. I really think they need to bring back instant death rules for force weapons and make the SoT able to cast 2 powers.

Honestly the only thing the scarabs need is a different implementation for All is dust. Like this: "All is dust: Scarab Occult Terminators suffer 1 less wound than normal from all attacks, to a minimum of one". POW. Have yourself an extremely useful unit, which completely synergizes with the rubrics (because who are you shooting with your 2dmg weapons now?), is durable and can be played both as MSU deep strike shanenaninenigans and as a 10 strong mainstay unit.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.

I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :

Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.

tl;dr : this power sucks.

 Nym wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.

I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :

Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.

tl;dr : this power sucks.

...and the same holds true with most of the lore. I think they purposefully upped all the casting costs under the thinking that we do get bonuses to cast. But then the models got costed around having a bonus to cast. Hmmm.

 Nym wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.

I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :

Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.

tl;dr : this power sucks.

Oh gak so it is closest model i stand corrected. Well that does kinda blow chunks.

Discipline of Tzeentch does indeed suck. Gaze of Fate is nice, the rest of the powers are either very situational or outright garbage

Altough it doesn't really matter to me personally as the only ones who can take powers from it are Daemon Princes and Magnus, so it's not like I could take all the powers even if I wanted too.

As for the whole "there are tzeentch daemons in the codex but we cant take them without loosing brotherhood of psykers" - this is indeed weird and a pity, but it's at the very least consistent with CSM and DG.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Discipline of Tzeentch does indeed suck. Gaze of Fate is nice, the rest of the powers are either very situational or outright garbage

Altough it doesn't really matter to me personally as the only ones who can take powers from it are Daemon Princes and Magnus, so it's not like I could take all the powers even if I wanted too.

As for the whole "there are tzeentch daemons in the codex but we cant take them without loosing brotherhood of psykers" - this is indeed weird and a pity, but it's at the very least consistent with CSM and DG.

Yeah TBH they really should allow exalted to pull from the daemon powers as well. As it stands now i need to use a command point to get a daemon power on a exalted

The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.

No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.

No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.

They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.

No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.

They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.

Good point. But then why give TS DP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.

No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.

They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.

Good point. But then why give TS DP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?

So that you can have more synergy? I hope they FAQ in the nurgle DP having access to Nurgle discipline too.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Good point. But then why give TS DP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?

So you can take powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch without forcing you to take a Daemon detatchment perhaps?
I won't take a Daemon detatchment so I'm glad my TS Daemon Prince still got access to the powers should I want them.

I was incredibly disappointed by the Sons. I was playing a VERY casual Blood Angels army against a Sons player who had:

-Magnus
-Ahriman
-2x Daemon Princes

-2x big blobs of Goats
-1x 5 man Rubric squad
-1x 5 man Scarab squad

-2x Helbrute
-1x Maulerfiend

He went first, failed most of his high cost powers (or they got denied), he got Magnus into my lines against a Razorback and Mephiston. Killed the Razorback, and only did 2 wounds to Mephiston. Mephy in return did 12 to him, and killed Magnus in my turn 1.

The rest of his army really didn't do much besides the two Daemon Princes, the Rubrics died horribly to Overcharged Plasma. Ahriman easily died to Chainsword Death Company, and the goats were penned in by some Rhinos. It was a pretty lackluster showing of the sons.

The other two games the guy played against Guard/Black Templars and Guard/Custodes went even worse than the one he played against me. I watched the first game, and just over half the army died top of turn 1, and the goats did nothing when they came in from deep strike besides kill a screening unit of guardsmen because the other unit failed the charge.

Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.

Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.

Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.

I agree. But from what I saw from the rest of it, I really wasn't impressed. He is going to proxy some of his Death Guard stuff as Sons and drop Magnus for a while, in an attempt to improve how it does. Our group is pretty casual, but Magnus still keeps getting blown away game after game.

 Primark G wrote:
It looks like a great codex to me overall.

You think grey knights look pretty great.

It's true, Magnus is paper thin. I think a really cool, both fluffy and mechanic wise, allow SoT two wounds for him.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.

Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure to field a competitive Thousand Sons list you're going to need to spend a LOT of money on Tzaangor Enlightened. I'm not going to besmirch someone who'd rather shelve what they have than dump all their money on models that aren't even the reason they started playing the army.