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You make it sound like making an 8 inch charge is Impossible.

You don't need to warp time tzaangors to get the bomb off.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.

So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.

A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.

I'm making pretty damn good use out of spells and MSU rubrics. We'll see how it does at the local tournament in a couple weeks.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You make it sound like making an 8 inch charge is Impossible.

You don't need to warp time tzaangors to get the bomb off.

It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.

If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.

You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Tried a few games out with 2 big units of Enlightened with Bows (2 units of 9) - and I know they aren't popular from a fluff stand point but man from a rules stand point they get nasty. I had the 2 unit surrounding 2 Tzaangor Shamans (probably could have cut one) and Ahriman and I was very pleased with the results.

Oh yeah they are dumb, like the bows, just wounding on a 5+ for your to hit roll is crazy against high toughness units. Then giving them prescience and making it so a hit roll of 4+ is a wound, no questions asked, is crazy good.

Oh I see you have a land raider over there. Ok my 2 vortex beasts are gonna make my bows -2 AP, buffing them so they have a +2 to hit, and here comes 9 assault 3 weapons at you4+ auto wound.

Melee weapons only on the MVB ability.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.

So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.

A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.

For goodness' sake, I addressed that in my post, and I've addressed it every time someone has made the same bloody argument. Read it through again. There is literally a poster on the page my previous post was on that said Tzaangors were breaking the fluff. That was who my post was directed at, AND I commented that said people would NOT be complaining if they ALSO released more Rubricae/Astartes kits at the same time, especially as said new units would get their own stratagems and cool rules. If a "muh fluff" argument gets dropped because GW also adds some new Rubricae units, the "muh fluff" argument has zero merit; it's those people I take umbrage with. I personally am still annoyed there's no real Rubric/Scarab specific stratagems (one that triggers only when they die does not count no matter how hard their Facebook page tries to spin it) so don't even try to pull that line on me, you're preaching to the choir at this point.

And no, the Mutalith AP ability does not work on ranged weapons. Also no, an 8" charge is not "impossible" but it's not guaranteed, whereas once you've got Warptime off it pretty much is provided you took the near-mandatory Brayhorn. If you're going to "bomb", you want to make it as reliable as possible, and Warptime+Brayhorn is the Tzaangor answer to Khorne's re-roll charges + 3D6" total charge roll.

the_scotsman wrote:


It's super easy to find OP combos in the rules if you continuously get those rules wrong.

Not to mention that it's super easy to pin a unit as "OP" when you're at the same time spending 500+ points buffing said unit.

the_scotsman wrote:


It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.

If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.

You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.

Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.

Caederes wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.

If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.

You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.

Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.

Yep, that is an alternative way to do it, but (I'd argue, at least) you're going to have trouble beating the Pink Horrors with the second Tzaangor blob version of the strategy. And you're still dropping off some of the effectiveness of your second blob (your first tzaangors are likely to have cleared out everything that they're optimal to clear out if they did their job well, and if they died horribly to something, odds are good the second tzaangor blob wont do any better). Pinks on the other hand could even be deployed together with the tzaangors in the first turn, helping to clear out some of the chaff in front of the tzaangors so they can get to more useful targets behind it.

All good points. Ultimately the Deep Striking melee blobs are there both to kill stuff and stop stuff from shooting, that's why I like dual blobs - whether Horrors + Tzaangors or Tzaangors + Tzaangors - to clear chaff and then tie up tanks/artillery. It can very much depend on your meta. Alaitoc Eldar don't care about Horrors, for example, and they can easily block your first blob with Hemlocks and Rangers. Depends on the Alaitoc list though, as within 12" the Horrors will still cut through Rangers provided there aren't too many of them. Two blobs though? Now we're talking. On the flip side, Horrors will mulch a Guard infantry line and can be hard to shift in return.

Caederes wrote:


Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.

Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.

Table wrote:


I was going to write a long and boring critique of this post (not the person post, but its contents). then I just decided to cut to the chase. And here it is. That list is balls to the wall horrible. For so many reasons. I mean terrible. If he enjoys playing it, sweet. But he has no business being salty when losing with it. Because that is what is going to happen repeatedly. He is also playing a pure army vs soup which is a huge disadvantage to him. The playing here is what was the worst. Why is he playing Maggy like he is Morty? Maggy is NOT a beat stick. One look at his underwhelming melee stats (compared to other walker super heavys) could have told him that. Why is Ahriman not being screened by cultists? Where is is ranged AT that should have taken care of the Rhinos? Where is the mutalith? Where is the shaman? tzangs need support. They demand it. Just taking one big blob wont be blowing anyones socks off unsupported. And as far as cheap bodies cultists do it cheaper and have auto-guns. How is Meph putting 12 wounds on Magnus is one round of close combat? Why is Magnus targeting the Razorback when hes getting into a fight with a HQ?

Honestly, this is how a new player plays and makes a list.

Now you may think I am being hyper critical and a bit WAAC. I am not. I am pointing out how posts like these fuel the dakka hyperbole. You cannot judge the health of a codex on three games , two of them vs guard soup, where he not only brought one of the worst lists ive seen AND played horribly on top of that.

Oh I agree, it wasn't a very good list. All I wanted to do was point out my observations of what I saw.

He is a broke college kid, so he only ran what he had or was able to trade for. Thankfully his Death Guard is far better constructed and generally better played. And I agree that Magnus shouldn't be played like Mortarion, they are very different. He had just been playing his Death Guard for so long, I think he just got into the habit of throwing a daemon primarch directly into the fight.

What had happened with Magnus vs Mephiston is that he put 2 of his attacks on the Razorback, and the rest of Mephy. He finished off the Razorback and was able to wound Mephy 4 times. I saved two of the wound rolls on a 6, and the resulting 6 damage was brought down to 2 through Mephiston's feel no pain stacking with the Banner of Sacrifice's feel no pain. Since they are 2 different abilities with 2 different names they both activate and saved Mephiston's butt. Mephiston was also in range of a Captain and Lieutenant, so all of his attacks hit and wounded. The Magnus player rolled like garbage for his invul, and the resulting D3 damage rolls added up to 12 damage. It was an absolute fluke, although he killed Mephiston in my turn 1 fight phase, I spent the 2 CP on Only In Death Does Duty End to allow Mephiston to swing before he was killed and he finished off Magnus. So, like stated, an absolute fluke.

It didn't help he either failed his important powers, or they got denied with the 3 denials I had on the field at the time.

My Rhinos were also behind line of sight blocking terrain so the 2 twin-las/missile Helbrutes couldn't see them. And the one he could see got super-smited off the board by Magnus.

He also though he had blocked off Ahriman from being charged by the Death Company, but accidentally left a small corridor for them to deploy behind him and make it in with a 3D6" charge.

With the terrain and how I deployed, I was able to mitigate a lot of the stuff he had and allow my army to take some punches if I went second (like I did). So that was a real lesson for him.

I was just sharing what it is that I saw in my game, and his other two games. I had feared Magnus since (surprisingly) it was the first time I had faced him in 8th. It was really just the perfect storm of bad rolls on his part, and some bad positioning, stacked with a lackluster list.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Caederes wrote:


Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.

Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.

I think the key here (assuming you play with this dual blob style, I myself do) is having some smaller chaff screens around (I tend to have about 4 units of 10 man cultists on the table) to help keep your characters wrapped up.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:


I think the key here (assuming you play with this dual blob style, I myself do) is having some smaller chaff screens around (I tend to have about 4 units of 10 man cultists on the table) to help keep your characters wrapped up.

Yea, but if you're supporting a deepstrike they are not likely in place to do so.

Daedalus81 wrote:


Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.

You're underselling the Thousand Sons Legion trait. Barring Warptime, all but one of those buff powers can come from 24" away. Even Warptime gets a 9" range under Thousand Sons rules, and it shouldn't be too hard to keep the caster back far enough or in a good enough spot that they don't have to worry too much about a counter-offensive.

Alpha strike armies by their nature take new risks and minimize other risks, it's a completely different way to play the game. Your characters can be exposed if you're not careful, but you also protect key units from getting destroyed before they can do anything. If your Terminator Sorcerer manages to Warptime a Tzaangor blob into the enemy lines, he's paid for himself already. All your other buff powers should come from elsewhere if you build the list right.

In the competitive list I'm building, my only Deep Striking characters are a Herald of Tzeentch to give my Pink Horrors +1 Strength as well as Flickering Flames and the Sorcerer in Terminator Armour to give me Warptime on the go. If my Tzaangor blob comes down second turn after my Horror blob has done some damage, either the Sorcerer Lord can hide with what's left of the Horrors or he'll be joined by my waves of Cultists advancing up the field while I keep Brimstones back on my homefield objectives. All my buffs aside from Warptime and Flickering Flames come from characters that hide behind the Cultist wall and have the mobility to surge forward if I need them to.

If you're too worried about the blob(s) failing and the character(s) getting exposed (if you combine a Horror and Tzaangor blob together, that shouldn't happen) you can give the Dark Matter Crystal to someone else and simply teleport a Cultist blob up-field to protect that/those forward character(s).

the_scotsman wrote:
Who could have thought you'd come to that conclusion.

You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"

Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.

No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.

They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic or GK modified smite mechanic is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it.

To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. We have 1 model which has access to spells, and most of them don't directly benefit that model. The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH.

To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire, and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.

per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors

Overwatch is unaffected by to-hit modifiers, Glamour does nothing to it.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.

They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic or GK modified smite mechanic is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it.

To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. We have 1 model which has access to spells, and most of them don't directly benefit that model. The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH.

To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire, and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.

per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors

In Age of Sigmar, the game system where said Familiar pack comes from, I want you to tally up the amount of wizards that can actually use Chaos Familiars.
I'll wait............hint; it's not that many.
The Sorcerer in Terminator Armour kit comes with a Familiar, that's literally the entire reason he alone has access to it (because the other Sorcerer kits our army uses don't come with them)
If you want to jump down that rabbit hole, go and ask Death Guard players how they feel about half their codex not having Disgustingly Resilient, and show them how our generic unit entries shared with other Chaos factions (Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, etc) get access to Inferno weapons/improved invulnerable saves/can cast more spells.

We do have a unique spell mechanic. We add +6" to our spell ranges Also we do have modified Smites; in fact, three of our unique units have special versions of Smite. Magnus has Perils protection and a re-roll casting rolls of 1 aura. We have a bunch of characters with in-built casting bonuses. We have the most versatile psykers in the entire game. Who cares about unique if we do the psychic phase so well? Of note, the only "unique" thing about Thousand Sons casting in 7th Edition was we had a psyker that manifested warp charges on 2+ and completely ignored Perils.

What are you talking about with "1 model which has access to spells"? Do you mean Daemon Princes? Don't forget Magnus! Also, don't forget the Chaos Familiar stratagem. Also also wik. But seriously, who cares if a spell like Flickering Flames doesn't buff our Daemon Prince? He can cast it on a Forgefiend/Defiler/Decimator or other Daemon Engine.

That's the key point here. "When fully buffed" Tzaangors need; 1CP (or 3CP if you put another unit in the Webway) to Deep Strike, Warptime to make their charge go from unlikely to extremely likely, Prescience so they hit on 2s, 1CP for Veterans of the Long War so they get +1 to-wound, +1 Strength from a Mutalith so they are Strength 5, +1 to their AP from a second Mutalith so they are AP-2, Weaver of Fates for +1 to their invulnerable saves, Glamour of Tzeentch so enemies are -1 to-hit them and 2CP to fight twice. That's 2CP, 2 Mutaliths (300 dollary-doos) and either Ahriman/Magnus with the "cast an extra power" stratagem or, much more likely, two psykers (so minimum 200+ gummi bears) That's fully buffed. At minimum, they need Warptime and 1/3CP to teleport, but then they'll have nowhere near the hitting power of the Bloodletters and their staying power won't be that much better (T3 VS T4) which gets worse seeing as they would be killing a lot less than the Bloodletters.

Let's contrast this to Bloodletters! Bloodletters need; 1/2CP to teleport (based on unit size) 1CP for the relic banner and 3CP to fight twice. That's it.
That can't be right!? It sure is though! Without needing any investment, they charge 3D6 total with re-rolls meaning they are nearly guaranteed to charge compared to a Tzaangor unit (average of 3D6 is 10.5/11 and after Deep Strike they are 9" away, with a re-roll your chances of failure are miniscule) with a Brayhorn that's been unaffected by Warptime (i.e. if an opponent stops the power, which some armies are very good at doing!) they already hit on 2+ (in a big unit) they are already Strength 5 on the charge and they have -3AP base. Buffed Tzaangors are much harder to kill but they still don't hit as hard and the Bloodletters require far less investment to function properly than Tzaangors, they are a straight up unit-deleting bomb that is very much "point and click" in comparison to Tzaangors. This also means that if you do have buffs to throw around, you can put them on other stuff that actually needs them!

Also, Overwatch is unaffected by modifiers unless said modifiers specifically state they affect Overwatch. Glamour doesn't.
As I've been telling you from the moment you cried "Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit because that would be too good" (paraphrasing) Bloodletters literally exist in the Thousand Sons' sister codex and are an overall better unit (in a Deep Strike bomb list) that needs far less points investment. The only points in Tzaangors favour is that they can be a lot harder to kill than Bloodletters (in some match-ups the Toughness 4 over Toughness 3 makes no difference) and the Bloodletters tend to be more CP intensive. It just so happens that having a Tzeentch equivalent of the Bloodletter bomb that can have an even more reliable charge (IF you get Warptime off) and can be much harder to kill has a lot of merit to it, hence why I've been trying it out lately.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors

Wrong math on this, I think?

It's 4.4 on the Tzaangors. Even if you're counting on a 4++ it's 3.3.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Who could have thought you'd come to that conclusion.

You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"

Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.

No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.

They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic You mean like the mechanic where their support mini-HQs get access to one spell discipline and their full HQs get another? Yeah, ours is totally different from that, in that it is the same...but better, because our HQs got access to BOTH the mini-HQ discipline and the regular one. or GK modified smite mechanic You're literally referring to the mechanic where Grey Knights get a less powerful version of smite that can have its range increased. That's what you're talking about here? you mean that thing that we have except again, better, because our HQs DONT have to deal with mini-smite? is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it. This is a dice game. If you disqualify die shifts and rerolls as "oh just the same thing other people have" even if they work differently from anyone elses (sorcerous elixir and Familiar are in fact different from what anyone else has, and nobody else can get a permanent casting bonus mid-game like we can from boon) then you're just engaging in sloppy ad-hoc reasoning to maintain your hate boner. and that's just frankly sad to watch.

To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?! Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. ....so we just have access to the nurgle and slaanesh daemon powers, or...? We have 1 model which has access to spells, Two. Is being honest with your arguments REALLY this difficult? You keep forgetting Magnus, the primarch of the entire legion, his model is like a foot tall and he has giant 3" long nipple horns, man, he's pretty distinctive! and most of them don't directly benefit that model. Well, three of them don't. One because it only affects shooting attacks from daemons (which is quite beneficial for 3 units found within the Thousand Sons codex in particular) and two because they deal mortal wounds. Frankly, I'm glad the mortal wounds don't affect me, though if we're getting pedantic, AND BOY OH BOY ARE WE, infernal gateway totally does affect the caster if the target is within 3". The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH. Right, because it affects a whole unit. I'd kind of hope the buff that only works on one model would be stronger.

To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) Literally only if you're buffing them with 385 points of support models that you have to get within 6-9". You need to get them within range of the Shaman and two mutaliths to get equivalent damage to what Bloodletters get right out of the box. 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS Tzaangors have a weighted 83.4% chance of getting into combat off deep strike (71.7% chance to auto-succeed with Warptime, 41% chance to get their 8" charge off if you fail warptime.) Bloodletters have a 71.2% chance of getting in with their 3D6" charge, and a 91.8% chance to get in if there is any Khorne Daemon character with the locus within range. There is no significant distinction between the two units' reliability of getting in off the charge, particularly if we're already granting the Tzaangors a character to give them Warptime (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch Wrong again. Overwatch can't be modified normally, only by rules that explicitly say they affect overwatch. Glamour doesn't. (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. ToT is the single least reliable spell in the game. Also, you can't declare him as a target for your charge OR pile in towards him, because until the end of the turn he's not counted as an enemy model. Though you can just have him charge, assuming that you succeed at the usually around 19% chance of getting Treason off. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire Do you ever try doing the math before making a statement? I'm assuming your estimate here is figuring that every Tzaangor squad in existence has Glamour and Weaver on at all times? Because otherwise they take 1.33x more shots to kill. , and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.

per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors

This is a highly honest comparison. I'm sure whenever you factor in wounds vs GEQ, you always assume that they have both Nightshroud and Barrier up to make sure the numbers are padded - I mean, taking account of all normal factors.

Oh, I see. He counted glamour and weaver in that math.

You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.

Daedalus81 wrote:

You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.

When you're so desperate to make anything fit your narrative that you're starting to look like a troll, you can...

Regarding the Tzaangor bomb and its effectiveness (I posted about this in the TSons tactics thread as well) - I played a game with a 30 man bomb with the only support as Warptime and Prescience (one from a deepstriking terminator and one from Ahriman) and they were able to help me take a game by clearing one of my opponents two big units of guardians.

More to the point of why I used them over the Bloodletter bomb - I like 2 of the TSons relics quite a bit (the Dark Crystal and the Helm). I also like having a pretty good fistful of CP and I need a TSons detachment to get access to their relics (by virtue of accessing their stratagems) and I don't want to spend 3 CP to do so. Not especially given than I'm spending 3 on my Tzaangors early already. So ultimately I do think the 'letters hit a little harder the Tzaangors are an acceptable substitute that allow me access to some other traits and relics that I want at the same time. Hope this isn't too rambling and makes a bit of sense regarding a more tangible benefit of Tzaangors versus 'Letters.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Overwatch is unaffected by to-hit modifiers, Glamour does nothing to it.

Your right totally forgot about that.

Caederes wrote:
In Age of Sigmar, the game system where said Familiar pack comes from, I want you to tally up the amount of wizards that can actually use Chaos Familiars.
I'll wait............hint; it's not that many.

And how does that stop our units from getting it? That isn't an argument that's on observation, and one that doesn't even prevent us from getting the familiars.

Caederes wrote:
The Sorcerer in Terminator Armour kit comes with a Familiar, that's literally the entire reason he alone has access to it (because the other Sorcerer kits our army uses don't come with them)
If you want to jump down that rabbit hole, go and ask Death Guard players how they feel about half their codex not having Disgustingly Resilient, and show them how our generic unit entries shared with other Chaos factions (Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, etc) get access to Inferno weapons/improved invulnerable saves/can cast more spells.

So your saying the reason we can't have the Familiars is because we have to buy an upgrade pack? Like when GW linked the AoS battle force box and said buy this 12.50 spure to get Chainswords for your Tzaangors?

Caederes wrote:
We do have a unique spell mechanic. We add +6" to our spell ranges Also we do have modified Smites; in fact, three of our unique units have special versions of Smite. Magnus has Perils protection and a re-roll casting rolls of 1 aura. We have a bunch of characters with in-built casting bonuses. We have the most versatile psykers in the entire game. Who cares about unique if we do the psychic phase so well? Of note, the only "unique" thing about Thousand Sons casting in 7th Edition was we had a psyker that manifested warp charges on 2+ and completely ignored Perils.

Neither of the things you mentioned is unique. Bonus' and rerolls are plentiful in this game, so are modified Smites. Magnus' perils protection is useful but is not game changing or really appealing to anyone that dosent want to run Magnus.

Caederes wrote:
What are you talking about with "1 model which has access to spells"? Do you mean Daemon Princes? Don't forget Magnus! Also, don't forget the Chaos Familiar stratagem. Also also wik. But seriously, who cares if a spell like Flickering Flames doesn't buff our Daemon Prince? He can cast it on a Forgefiend/Defiler/Decimator or other Daemon Engine.

Look I realize lots of people run Magnus, I don't. I never remember Magnus. I ran him a couple times, and never will agian, I dont like titan models in general. We do not have the CP to be spend on exchanging spells which we already chose.

Caederes wrote:
That's the key point here. "When fully buffed" Tzaangors need; 1CP (or 3CP if you put another unit in the Webway) to Deep Strike, Warptime to make their charge go from unlikely to extremely likely, Prescience so they hit on 2s, 1CP for Veterans of the Long War so they get +1 to-wound, +1 Strength from a Mutalith so they are Strength 5, +1 to their AP from a second Mutalith so they are AP-2, Weaver of Fates for +1 to their invulnerable saves, Glamour of Tzeentch so enemies are -1 to-hit them and 2CP to fight twice. That's 2CP, 2 Mutaliths (300 dollary-doos) and either Ahriman/Magnus with the "cast an extra power" stratagem or, much more likely, two psykers (so minimum 200+ gummi bears) That's fully buffed. At minimum, they need Warptime and 1/3CP to teleport, but then they'll have nowhere near the hitting power of the Bloodletters and their staying power won't be that much better (T3 VS T4) which gets worse seeing as they would be killing a lot less than the Bloodletters.

Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors. The difference is

Caederes wrote:
Let's contrast this to Bloodletters! Bloodletters need; 1/2CP to teleport (based on unit size) 1CP for the relic banner and 3CP to fight twice. That's it.
That can't be right!? It sure is though! Without needing any investment, they charge 3D6 total with re-rolls meaning they are nearly guaranteed to charge compared to a Tzaangor unit (average of 3D6 is 10.5/11 and after Deep Strike they are 9" away, with a re-roll your chances of failure are miniscule) with a Brayhorn that's been unaffected by Warptime (i.e. if an opponent stops the power, which some armies are very good at doing!) they already hit on 2+ (in a big unit) they are already Strength 5 on the charge and they have -3AP base. Buffed Tzaangors are much harder to kill but they still don't hit as hard and the Bloodletters require far less investment to function properly than Tzaangors, they are a straight up unit-deleting bomb that is very much "point and click" in comparison to Tzaangors. This also means that if you do have buffs to throw around, you can put them on other stuff that actually needs them!

Yes, I get they have a lower threshold, but they have no way to buff their durability, and are limited to one of those charges per game, and will die immediately afterward to 30 guardsman worth of small arms fire. The Tzaangors will require 90 Guardsman. I'm not saying that Tzaangors are better at killing everything im saying overall Tzaangors win out they can do most of what Bloodletters can do, they can do it multiple times, and they take 3x the damage when buffed. The simple fact is with two Mutaliths I can flex the Tzaangors so they have the most effective setup against what ever they are fighting. I think being able to pick between having -3 ap or having S6 attacks and having 3x the durability is better than having S6 and AP -3 attacks, but getting deleted immediately after you kill something is rather annoying

Caederes wrote:
Also, Overwatch is unaffected by modifiers unless said modifiers specifically state they affect Overwatch. Glamour doesn't.
As I've been telling you from the moment you cried "Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit because that would be too good" (paraphrasing) Bloodletters literally exist in the Thousand Sons' sister codex and are an overall better unit (in a Deep Strike bomb list) that needs far less points investment. The only points in Tzaangors favour is that they can be a lot harder to kill than Bloodletters (in some match-ups the Toughness 4 over Toughness 3 makes no difference) and the Bloodletters tend to be more CP intensive. It just so happens that having a Tzeentch equivalent of the Bloodletter bomb that can have an even more reliable charge (IF you get Warptime off) and can be much harder to kill has a lot of merit to it, hence why I've been trying it out lately.

Yeah, that has been pointed out already not sure why I thought it did. I never said "can't" I said "aren't" and if I I said it would make Tzaangors way to strong and it did. As long as you have goats on the table you are hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, and I have this crazy Idea that no army should have access to something that allows people to have everything they put on the table hit on 2s and reroll 1s.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Who could have thought you'd come to that conclusion.

You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"

Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.

No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.

They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic You mean like the mechanic where their support mini-HQs get access to one spell discipline and their full HQs get another? Yeah, ours is totally different from that, in that it is the same...but better, because our HQs got access to BOTH the mini-HQ discipline and the regular one. or GK modified smite mechanic You're literally referring to the mechanic where Grey Knights get a less powerful version of smite that can have its range increased. That's what you're talking about here? you mean that thing that we have except again, better, because our HQs DONT have to deal with mini-smite? is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it. This is a dice game. If you disqualify die shifts and rerolls as "oh just the same thing other people have" even if they work differently from anyone elses (sorcerous elixir and Familiar are in fact different from what anyone else has, and nobody else can get a permanent casting bonus mid-game like we can from boon) then you're just engaging in sloppy ad-hoc reasoning to maintain your hate boner. and that's just frankly sad to watch.

To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?! Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. ....so we just have access to the nurgle and slaanesh daemon powers, or...? We have 1 model which has access to spells, Two. Is being honest with your arguments REALLY this difficult? You keep forgetting Magnus, the primarch of the entire legion, his model is like a foot tall and he has giant 3" long nipple horns, man, he's pretty distinctive! and most of them don't directly benefit that model. Well, three of them don't. One because it only affects shooting attacks from daemons (which is quite beneficial for 3 units found within the Thousand Sons codex in particular) and two because they deal mortal wounds. Frankly, I'm glad the mortal wounds don't affect me, though if we're getting pedantic, AND BOY OH BOY ARE WE, infernal gateway totally does affect the caster if the target is within 3". The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH. Right, because it affects a whole unit. I'd kind of hope the buff that only works on one model would be stronger.

To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) Literally only if you're buffing them with 385 points of support models that you have to get within 6-9". You need to get them within range of the Shaman and two mutaliths to get equivalent damage to what Bloodletters get right out of the box. 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS Tzaangors have a weighted 83.4% chance of getting into combat off deep strike (71.7% chance to auto-succeed with Warptime, 41% chance to get their 8" charge off if you fail warptime.) Bloodletters have a 71.2% chance of getting in with their 3D6" charge, and a 91.8% chance to get in if there is any Khorne Daemon character with the locus within range. There is no significant distinction between the two units' reliability of getting in off the charge, particularly if we're already granting the Tzaangors a character to give them Warptime (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch Wrong again. Overwatch can't be modified normally, only by rules that explicitly say they affect overwatch. Glamour doesn't. (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. ToT is the single least reliable spell in the game. Also, you can't declare him as a target for your charge OR pile in towards him, because until the end of the turn he's not counted as an enemy model. Though you can just have him charge, assuming that you succeed at the usually around 19% chance of getting Treason off. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire Do you ever try doing the math before making a statement? I'm assuming your estimate here is figuring that every Tzaangor squad in existence has Glamour and Weaver on at all times? Because otherwise they take 1.33x more shots to kill. , and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.

per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors

This is a highly honest comparison. I'm sure whenever you factor in wounds vs GEQ, you always assume that they have both Nightshroud and Barrier up to make sure the numbers are padded - I mean, taking account of all normal factors.

No I don't mean like having mini-HQ units I mean like having spells with a unique mechanic like I said.

I never said it was a good mechanic I said it was a mechanic.

I'm not saying its not a mechanic im saying its not a unique mechanic.

"So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?!" *Sigh* Really? Did you have Tzeentch marked Daemons in your army prior to the Codex? Could you Summon a HoT? Then what stopped you from using the spells on the units people intend to now? Defilers with FF or Mauler Fiends with BoC, or just casting GoF. What actually changed with the codex? We got a more expensive platform to cast the spells from.

I forget Magnus a lot. Mostly because I never run him. So I don't really think about him.

WE are not getting pedantic YOU are. So I'll say this again in a different way, what spells do you have access to now without taking any Daemon Detachments that you didn't have access to prior to the codex? The answer is none. Turn 1 summon HoT in Movement Phase, pick spells you want him to cast. Cast spell you want to in Psychic Phase. We gained the ability to move and cast that's it.

What do the chances become if you use a +1 to cast WT or a +2 for that matter?

I guess it's a good thing we choose the order of the spells. Cast ToT first goes off? Great beat the LD of the Character? Even better now I don't need to use GoT or WoF on them I can buff other units with those spells. ToT doesn't go off? well that sucks cast GoT and WoF on the Tzaangors.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh, I see. He counted glamour and weaver in that math.

You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.

Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.

 MinscS2 wrote:
When you're so desperate to make anything fit your narrative that you're starting to look like a troll, you can...

Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?

I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.

Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.

LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.

It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.

LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.

It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.

Okay what bonus' do bloodletters get for durability maybe I'm missing something. GoT is WC 7 WoF is WC 6. A Termie Sorc Warlord with the proper trait and a familiar can cast both those spells on a 5 which is an 83.3 % cast rate for both spells. When you say not casting your talking about edge cases which wont usually happen.

Not to mention support for the bloodletters at minimum need a DP which is 156 points of support, and if you don't want to risk losing the +1 to hit you have to overwatch you need a Skulltaker as well pushing the total up to 240 points, so its not like they are getting no support. Problem for bloodletters is they have, to my knowledge nothing which buffs thier durability, which is way more effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?

I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.

Fair enough. Although it's also possible, i simply didn't see your posts.

I know GW has the stupid "No Models, No Rules" stance and so I get that the Sorcerer in TA is the only datasheet that allows for a familiar. Even though there is a kit with nothing but familiars so we actually have models. The part that bugs me though is the consistency aspect between all the various Sorcs we have. I think its fine Aspiring Sorcs don't get a familiar, but if the regular Sorcs can why not the Exalted? At the very least give the Exalted Sorcs the same rule built in or something to differentiate them from regular Sorcs.

Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.

Math for people who are being at all honest:

30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.

61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.

30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters

61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.

Now we wait for TSS to explain

A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other

B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor

C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.

Then we can start digging into why your style of argumentation is fundamentally dishonest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.

LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.

It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.

Okay what bonus' do bloodletters get for durability maybe I'm missing something. GoT is WC 7 WoF is WC 6. A Termie Sorc Warlord with the proper trait and a familiar can cast both those spells on a 5 which is an 83.3 % cast rate for both spells. When you say not casting your talking about edge cases which wont usually happen.

Not to mention support for the bloodletters at minimum need a DP which is 156 points of support, and if you don't want to risk losing the +1 to hit you have to overwatch you need a Skulltaker as well pushing the total up to 240 points, so its not like they are getting no support. Problem for bloodletters is they have, to my knowledge nothing which buffs thier durability, which is way more effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?

I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.

Fair enough. Although it's also possible, i simply didn't see your posts.

Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.

There's been too much rudeness in this thread. Dropping into this discussion late in the game, I'm seeing more than one person going off the rails.

Take a step back, deep breath, and then return while being POLITE.

I'm not going to ding anyone this time, but if it persists I will.

the_scotsman wrote:
Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.

Math for people who are being at all honest:

30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.

61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.

30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters

61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.

Now we wait for TSS to explain

A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other

B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor

C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.

Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.

*Sigh*

A.) It was just and Example to show how much more durable Tzaangors can be.

B.) Because I already said they are better in the multi damage area, " 'Letters will kill multi wound units better," why would I factor that in when I said it was better? There is no argument to have there.

C.) Okay so I see what happened I forgot to put in the part about WoF and GoT at the end of my post, at least I think that's what you're referring to, that's my fault, sorry about that. At the same time rather than calling me a liar next time, please point that out to me.

It's not a suicide unit if you cast GoT and WoF on them. You can use whatever you want to clear out most if their infantry on turn 1 Flamers Rubrics what have you, then drop the Tzaangors in turn 2 and let them wreak havoc, then on turn 3 do it again.