Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Get a strip of masking tape and a sharpie, and rename the codex Tzeench: Daemonkin. Done.

Even makes sense, as 90% of the Thousand Sons sure aren't mortals anymore, even if they can be permanently destroyed.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.

Math for people who are being at all honest:

30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.

61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.

30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters

61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.

Now we wait for TSS to explain

A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other

B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor

C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.

Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.

*Sigh*

A.) It was just and Example to show how much more durable Tzaangors can be.

B.) Because I already said they are better in the multi damage area, " 'Letters will kill multi wound units better," why would I factor that in when I said it was better? There is no argument to have there.

C.) Okay so I see what happened I forgot to put in the part about WoF and GoT at the end of my post, at least I think that's what you're referring to, that's my fault, sorry about that. At the same time rather than calling me a liar next time, please point that out to me.

It's not a suicide unit if you cast GoT and WoF on them. You can use whatever you want to clear out most if their infantry on turn 1 Flamers Rubrics what have you, then drop the Tzaangors in turn 2 and let them wreak havoc, then on turn 3 do it again.

"Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors. The difference is "

So this is the post I'm referring to here.

You're saying that in the sentence which you started with "even when not fully buffed" you forgot to include the fact that you were still considering the Tzaangors to be buffed with two defensive spells.

And, apparently, you also forgot to mention that you've got them buffed with a couple offensive spells/auras as well, because in order for half a unit of tzaangors to swing back and kill half the bloodletters in turn, they need to be hitting on re-rollable 2s. (33 attacks, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds, 14.25 wounds which we round up to 15.)

At this point, the nitty-gritty of the comparison doesn't even matter, man. it's just tough to take any argument seriously if its components are not presented honestly. it's like entering into a discussion about whether space marines are in a good spot right now, and setting it up by saying "Well, a squad of tactical marines within 12" kills 11 guardsmen per turn, marines are fine!" and not mentioning that of course you're always going to have tactical marines within range of Guilliman, why wouldn't you?

I'm not saying Tzaangors aren't good, or able to be buffed, or able to be a lynchpin of an army, they're all those things. They're a solid unit and if you're trying to make a thousand sons list it's going to be tough to say you don't want a unit of 30. But you've really got to stretch logic past its breaking point to pretend they're some kind of magic super crazy op thing. Same with shaman, same with englightened. You want this codex to be all about these new units because you concluded that it would be the second they were announced as being in the book, and its all backed up by an evil conspiracy by GW to shove new models down your throat because apparently they have to sideline the brand new thousand sons range that came out a year or two ago. I'm just not seeing it. Are they also trying to push the editions-old Daemon Prince kit? Do they really want to make everyone convert a Terminator Sorceror? Or is it just a codex with the normal GW spaghetti-at-the-wall style balance we've seen pretty much every edition of 40k?

the_scotsman wrote:
"Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors."

So this is the post I'm referring to here.

You're saying that in the sentence which you started with "even when not fully buffed" you forgot to include the fact that you were still considering the Tzaangors to be buffed with two defensive spells.

When I say not fully buffed I mean even if you only have one buff on them. Which puts them at double the durability I believe.

With 1 buff on Tzaangors (WoF) for bloodletter attacking

61×.825×.66×.5 =16.6 Tzaangors killed, they kill 9.72 letters in return with only reroll 1s aura which is on most of our HQs

With 2 buffs GoT and WoF for Tzaangors and rerolling 1s for Bloodletters you get

61×.77×.66×.5= 15.5 Tzaangors killed, they kill 10. Again with only a reroll 1s aura

There is is little difference between the two.

the_scotsman wrote:
And, apparently, you also forgot to mention that you've got them buffed with a couple offensive spells/auras as well, because in order for half a unit of tzaangors to swing back and kill half the bloodletters in turn, they need to be hitting on re-rollable 2s. (33 attacks, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds, 14.25 wounds which we round up to 15.)

I shouldn't have wrote half. Meant 1/3 not even sure why I wrote half.

the_scotsman wrote:
At this point, the nitty-gritty of the comparison doesn't even matter, man. it's just tough to take any argument seriously if its components are not presented honestly. it's like entering into a discussion about whether space marines are in a good spot right now, and setting it up by saying "Well, a squad of tactical marines within 12" kills 11 guardsmen per turn, marines are fine!" and not mentioning that of course you're always going to have tactical marines within range of Guilliman, why wouldn't you?

It's not the same because G-man can only be taken once, and you have tons of options besides him. TS don't we have 2 auras, and Reroll 1s to hit is almost unavoidable in our army.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm not saying Tzaangors aren't good, or able to be buffed, or able to be a lynchpin of an army, they're all those things. They're a solid unit and if you're trying to make a thousand sons list it's going to be tough to say you don't want a unit of 30. But you've really got to stretch logic past its breaking point to pretend they're some kind of magic super crazy op thing. Same with shaman, same with englightened.

Bloodletters problem is they are super killy and can only become more killy, but you only need so much to kill a Guardsman. Letters are amazing at killing multi-wound models even if they have a good arnor save.

Tzaangors on the other hand can be almost as killy with a little support, and be much more durable, with the very same units that provide the auras which make them more killy. Which means they get another turn of attacking things.

the_scotsman wrote:
You want this codex to be all about these new units because you concluded that it would be the second they were announced as being in the book, and its all backed up by an evil conspiracy by GW to shove new models down your throat because apparently they have to sideline the brand new thousand sons range that came out a year or two ago.

Actually I don't want to be right about how the codex is structured. I simply am right. Mutalith, Tzaangor Shaman, Exalted Sorcerers, DP, Ahriman, and 1 of Magnus' auras benefit Tzaangors, and in ways they do not benefit Rubricae in our army. Mutalith and Tzaangor Shamans do nothing for Rubicae, but are amazing for Tzaangors in general. Tzaangors get way more out of the reroll 1s aura because when combined with the +1 to hit aura they are now hitting on 2s rerolling, which is extreamly good. No dice have been rolled to achive this, it simply is. DPs got access to Tzeentch Discipline, which we had access to before, none of which help our Rubricae, but those new enlightened sure can benefit from them.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm just not seeing it. Are they also trying to push the editions-old Daemon Prince kit? Do they really want to make everyone convert a Terminator Sorceror? Or is it just a codex with the normal GW spaghetti-at-the-wall style balance we've seen pretty much every edition of 40k?

Except its not spagetti at the wall everything is directed at the Tzaangors, perticularly the new ones. The old ones simply benefit more because of the unit size. There are things with explicit bonus' that only work on Tzaangors. They removed the two things which made Rubrics more viable. 5 man reaper squads and the reroll 1s for invul saves. They did work on the codex it was just all geared towards making Rubricae near useless beyond a single squad.

No they want to sell models, so if you have the option of buying a 10 dollar kit which you can split between 3 people and give 3 of your Exalted Sorcerers a familiar are you going to do that, Or are you going to spend 50 dollars on 2 new Sorcs in Termie armor which you probably didnt have before?

At this point we should drop this topic and just let it play out on the tables. It's clear we're no one is convincing anyone else.

I like the terminators. I don't think they are great against elder - but against imperial armies I think they will do very well.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Actually I don't want to be right about how the codex is structured. I simply am right. Mutalith, Tzaangor Shaman, Exalted Sorcerers, DP, Ahriman, and 1 of Magnus' auras benefit Tzaangors, and in ways they do not benefit Rubricae in our army. Mutalith and Tzaangor Shamans do nothing for Rubicae, but are amazing for Tzaangors in general. Tzaangors get way more out of the reroll 1s aura because when combined with the +1 to hit aura they are now hitting on 2s rerolling, which is extreamly good. No dice have been rolled to achive this, it simply is. DPs got access to Tzeentch Discipline, which we had access to before, none of which help our Rubricae, but those new enlightened sure can benefit from them.

You're not right the mutalith affect all Tzeentch units which include our Ruricae. I charge my occult terminators into close combat all the time. I also charge my regulars into close combat all the time too. Not to mention giving a rubric squad +1 str or + 1 ap in CC might be the difference between them killing the unit they are stuck in cc with or having to fall back thus making them useless the next turn. Grant it 8 times out of ten I am probably buffing my pink horrors with it. But that is what tactics are about using your tools to fit the situation.
Our Exalteds' aura of reroll to hits is way better than the reroll invulnerable saves IMO. Magnus's new aura does nothing for the tzaangors that are not psykers so again that affects 2 units of rubrics and 1 unit of tzaangors. The only CP that affects tzaangors specifically is the cycle of slaughter so one. But wait we have 5 stratagems that affect our vehicles and not our rubrics but you are not up in arms about that. However, we have many that affect psykers in our army so our 2 units of rubrics compared to our 1 tzaangor psyker. The Tzeentch disipline affects daemons which out of our codex are Daemon princes, shamans, enlightened, defilers, forgefiend, maulerfiend, heldrake, and Magnus. So hold the phone here you mean a whole two units of tzaangors out of 8 thousand sons specific units clearly gw is pushing the new models onto us.

Listen I get it you are angry that gw didn't make the codex to your specific view of how it is supposed to be. I am disappointed in a couple things as well. But please stop making up bull gak and trying to find things that are not there.

The Salt Mine wrote:
You're not right. The mutalith affects all Tzeentch units which include our Ruricae. I charge my occult terminators into close combat all the time. I also charge my regulars into close combat all the time too. Not to mention giving a rubric squad +1 str or + 1 ap in CC might be the difference between them killing the unit they are stuck in cc with or having to fall back thus making them useless the next turn. Granted 8 times out of ten I am probably buffing my pink horrors with it. But that is what tactics are about using your tools to fit the situation.

Okay, I never said it can't affect Rubrics. I said they benefit Tzaangors in ways that Rubrics do not benefit from them. In other words using the Mutalith to buff a 10 man squad of Tzaangors is better than buffing a 20 man squad of Rubrics. Rubrics are either the last or one of the last units you will use that on behind things like Tanks and Transports. Magnus is the only unit that is geared towards the Rubrics and once people figure out how important he is to the Rubrics he will die turn 1, 2 at the latest.

Tactics are "an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end." Tactics are not what you use, they are what you do. What you use are tools. Rubrics have very few tools in their own army, and most of those are very limited. What your talking about is adapting which you can't really plan to do beyond saying to yourself "I plan to adapt".

The Salt Mine wrote:
Our Exalteds' aura of reroll to hits is way better than the reroll invulnerable saves IMO. Magnus's new aura does nothing for the tzaangors that are not psykers so again that affects 2 units of rubrics and 1 unit of tzaangors. The only CP that affects tzaangors specifically is the cycle of slaughter so one. But wait we have 5 stratagems that affect our vehicles and not our rubrics but you are not up in arms about that. However, we have many that affect psykers in our army so our 2 units of rubrics compared to our 1 tzaangor psyker. The Tzeentch discipline affects daemons which out of our codex are Daemon princes, shamans, enlightened, defilers, forgefiend, maulerfiend, heldrake, and Magnus. So hold the phone here you mean a whole two units of tzaangors out of 8 thousand sons specific units clearly gw is pushing the new models onto us.

Lets assume for a moment that the reroll 1s to hit aura is objectively better than the reroll invul saves of 1. The problem is we once had 2 auras available to us, and now we don't, this objectively is a nerf. We had access to something and we lost it. BTW I agree given the option one or the other reroll 1s to hit is better.

Just, because one thing affects some other units doesn't mean they don't have a specific unit in mind. What about Tzaangor Shamans? Which unit gets more out of the rerolls 1s to hit aura Tzaangors or Rubrics? The common thread over all of these units is Tzaangors.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Listen I get it you are angry that gw didn't make the codex to your specific view of how it is supposed to be. I am disappointed in a couple things as well. But please stop making up bull gak and trying to find things that are not there.

It has nothing to do with my specific view. Thinking that was going to happen is unreasonable and egotistical at best. It's how lazy this entire codex is. How everything in the book centers around Tzaangors, most of it is copy and paste.

Again no they don't benefit Tzaangors in different ways that Rubrics. They both are getting the same exact buff. Your argument about tactics is literally the exact same thing I said and being able to adapt to the situation at hand is what wins you games. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
As we have established the rubrics have the same amount of tools as the tzaangors more so if you are counting all the things that affect psychic powers. We had an aura that wasn't great replaced with something that is amazing but it still somehow a nerf just because we don't have access to it anymore. The only thing that aura was good for was magnus.

Just, because one thing affects some other units doesn't mean they don't have a specific unit in mind

Congrats that is literally the same argument everyone else has been making against you but I guess its only relevant when you want to use it? BTW I think it effects rubrics more since you know they are shooting and shooting is by nature more flexible than cc and there is two shooting rubric units and only 1 shooting tzaangor unit. And the reroll ones on psychic tests definitely affects rubrics more than shamans considering shamans have an inbuilt reroll mechanic already and I would rather avoid perils with rubrics than the shaman any day of the week.

Your entire argument has to do with your specific view. You keep saying this codex focuses on nothing but tzaangors which time and time again people have called you out on and proven false. This codex wasn't any more of a copy paste job than any other codex so far. We were always going to share things with the other Chaos space marine chapters. The Death guard codex came with most of the daemons of Nurgle entries as well and had most of the same stratagems as the CSM codex as well. Almost every loyal sm chapter codex so far shares stuff with the first codex SM but I guess they are all copy paste too? But that's fine we can ignore all the stuff they did change specifically for our codex because I guess it works with your argument right?

The Salt Mine wrote:
Again no they don't benefit Tzaangors in different ways that Rubrics.

I believe the point he's attempting to make (and not expressing clearly), is that the 3 buffs that the Mutalith provides are of very limited usefulness to Rubric units. Specifically, +1 Strength, re-roll charges, and -1 AP to melee weapons. I don't think there's an argument to be made here that these buffs are somehow good for Rubric units, at best these buffs would be used on Rubrics because you have no place else to use them. But yes, technically they benefit Rubrics the same way they do Tzaangors.

Anyhow, this thread has clearly gone off the rails at this point. Good luck folks, it was interesting to get a lot of opinions, there's some good stuff in the codex, but not enough to justify including a detachment over one of the existing CSM legions.

I still think it's a lazy, unimaginative codex that provides the bare minimum required to put an army on the table. It's got the psychic dominance angle locked down, but there just isn't enough there to really build around it I think.

Side note: Lost aura, not gained. Can't gain what was already had (Daemon Prince). More of the same is still having the same.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Side note: Lost aura, not gained. Can't gain what was already had (Daemon Prince). More of the same is still having the same.

Unless you didn't previously take a daemon prince to hang out next to your gunline (which I didn't, he always had wings and if he was benefiting anyone besides himself with his aura, it was my Tzaangors as they would be up front in melee.)

If you didn't, and instead you had Ahriman/An Exalted Sorc sitting in your backline, you did actually end up with a much better aura for your rubrics than the only occasionally useful reroll invlun aura.

It's a bit like if the Imperial Guard company commander got a "reroll 1s to hit" aura. Sure, you could argue that they had access to Yarrick before, but Yarrick is only one character, and he pays for a lot of extra stuff (the now-nerfed commissar aura, extra defenses and melee stats). It'd be tough to argue that its inclusion would not be a buff to the army as a whole.

In actual fact, we lost access to the reroll 1s invuln aura (which was really most useful on Magnus and Tzaangors, since Rubrics would only benefit from it at all against AP-2 or better weaponry) and gained access to an aura useful to our shooting units...on models we actually want back with those shooting units. it's pretty interesting to see this change spun as some kind of Tzaangors Only benefit, when Tzaangors kept the character most likely to be giving them that buff (DP) and lost the other aura which they'd often get from Disc Ahriman or Magnus in the index.

Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.

Turned out nice!

the_scotsman wrote:


Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.

Turned out nice!

Oh damn. I'm stealing that vulture idea!

the_scotsman wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Side note: Lost aura, not gained. Can't gain what was already had (Daemon Prince). More of the same is still having the same.

Unless you didn't previously take a daemon prince to hang out next to your gunline (which I didn't, he always had wings and if he was benefiting anyone besides himself with his aura, it was my Tzaangors as they would be up front in melee.)

If you didn't, and instead you had Ahriman/An Exalted Sorc sitting in your backline, you did actually end up with a much better aura for your rubrics than the only occasionally useful reroll invlun aura.

It's a bit like if the Imperial Guard company commander got a "reroll 1s to hit" aura. Sure, you could argue that they had access to Yarrick before, but Yarrick is only one character, and he pays for a lot of extra stuff (the now-nerfed commissar aura, extra defenses and melee stats). It'd be tough to argue that its inclusion would not be a buff to the army as a whole.

In actual fact, we lost access to the reroll 1s invuln aura (which was really most useful on Magnus and Tzaangors, since Rubrics would only benefit from it at all against AP-2 or better weaponry) and gained access to an aura useful to our shooting units...on models we actually want back with those shooting units. it's pretty interesting to see this change spun as some kind of Tzaangors Only benefit, when Tzaangors kept the character most likely to be giving them that buff (DP) and lost the other aura which they'd often get from Disc Ahriman or Magnus in the index.

Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.

Turned out nice!

Did you use the Kairic bird as a familiar? If so, that is a great idea. My plan is to use Kairic acolytes with the Tzaangor sword-and-pistol sprue as CC cultists. The bird and shields (and that goofy scroll) will be left over. Using it as a familiar is brilliant.

HOLY That converted Sorc looks AWESOME!!!! Well done. I too will probably be stealing that idea!

The codex actually has a term sorcerer where they just stuck the face plate on him

Odds of psychic dreads just got a lot more possible.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/adeptus-custodes-forge-world-beta-rules-and-codex-faqgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

Daedalus81 wrote:
Odds of psychic dreads just got a lot more possible.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/adeptus-custodes-forge-world-beta-rules-and-codex-faqgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.

*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*

the_scotsman wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Odds of psychic dreads just got a lot more possible.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/adeptus-custodes-forge-world-beta-rules-and-codex-faqgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.

*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*

So you think that they listen only to SM demands?

If you were asked yesterday if you thought FW would port over 30K models without GW co-opting it in plastic would you have said that it's possible?

The odds are no longer zero.

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Odds of psychic dreads just got a lot more possible.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/adeptus-custodes-forge-world-beta-rules-and-codex-faqgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.

*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*

So you think that they listen only to SM demands?

If you were asked yesterday if you thought FW would port over 30K models without GW co-opting it in plastic would you have said that it's possible?

The odds are no longer zero.

Given that most forgeworld stuff for Marines has 40k equivalents, yeah. The vast majority of the kits they release do have rules. Just the vehicles mind you - which is exactly what custodes got here.

Provided you are a marine anyway. If you're not you might just have models sitting around for months with no rules in either system.

the_scotsman wrote:

Just the vehicles mind you - which is exactly what custodes got here.

Provided you are a marine anyway. If you're not you might just have models sitting around for months with no rules in either system.

Well fortunately a psychic dread is both a marine and a vehicle.