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the Screeching phantom are codex compliant chapter founded during the cursed founding. The chapter uses a chomera gensead (combination of gensed of two primarch). One part of the genseed comes from corax and gives the phantom "the blessing of the shadow" a ability that erases the presenc of the astartes from his oponets mind psychers who poses this ability can even mask their whole squad(lets go with 10 marines to keep it balanced) . The second part of the genseed comes from non other than conrad curze traitor primarch of the nightlords. The idea of using a traitor geneseed has declined over and over again by the high lord of terra but the mecacicum convinced them that science is not at fault for their betreyal. just like the pretorians the screeching phantoms use the advantage of shadows prefering suprise atacks and sabotage over direct attack. The presence of curzes genes can be seen after the phantoms strike from the shadows with brutality thats matched by only a few other chapters. they have a special implant that is capable of realising a high pitch screetch that attacks nervus systems and causes temporaly paralyses similar to banshes of the eldars. the screeching phantoms preferd weapons are lightning claws and vibro talons and also uses jump packs to go with it. they of course use some of the normal space marine equipment. they have pale skin and bright red glowning eyses due to their deficiences. i need help with some the lore and that it is lore friendly.

Hmm... They're your dudes so you can do whatever you like with them. However, the fluff that you've set out goes against a lot of the established conventions. Not even Cawl has managed to convince the High Lords and Bobby G to allow the use of traitor genes.

In saying that, I believe the Minotaurs, being the High Lords' attack dogs, and also the Red Scorpions are heavily rumoured to have some rather unsavoury progenitors.

i knew that may be in case but cawl said he would do it one day and you cannot really say to a tech priest to not do something. he may have done it in secret with no one knowing as experiment and claiming it to be pure ravenguard geneseed and making them a ravenguard succesor. there are at least one chapter being rumored to have traitor geneseed dont remember their name but they were extremly tough.

Since the Exorcists force their initiates to become possessed by daemons I’m going to say it’s a cool idea to have a chimera gene seed of two Primarchs.

That being said 90% of Space Marine Chapters don’t know their heritage at this level of detail. Usually because GW likes vague background, but also because it’s easier to say they might be X, but it’s rumored that theyre Y. It adds mystery and uncertainty.

As far as rules go. Discuss that with your opponent. Narrative gamers usually don’t mind.
It could be cool to use he Nightlords Chapter tactic with this army: Night Lords - Terror Tactics or RAVEN GUARD - Shadow Masters (Not both at the same time though for game balance)

DontEatRawHagis wrote:


That being said 90% of Space Marine Chapters don’t know their heritage at this level of detail.

The Imperium imposes a geneseed 'tithe' upon most Space Marine chapters, which is used to form new chapters. I'm not sure if they make sure that an entire chapter is formed from geneseed descended from one single primarch, though it seems to stretch credulity that they wouldn't be able to tell which geneseed it descends from with simple examination. They have to know what Ultramarines geneseed looks like compared to Blood Angels geneseed - mutations over time nothwithstanding.

However, the people making the new chapters might not care where the geneseed comes from, and heretical tech-priest might very well mix up some geneseed for the purposes of secret experimentation, so a chapter of 'mixed' distribution of geneseed is entirely possible, and someone trying to make hybrid space marine chapters isn't beyond the pale either, though if it ever came to light I expect that chapter would be declared excommunicatus pretty quickly.

 John Prins wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:


That being said 90% of Space Marine Chapters don’t know their heritage at this level of detail.

However, the people making the new chapters might not care where the geneseed comes from, and heretical tech-priest might very well mix up some geneseed for the purposes of secret experimentation, so a chapter of 'mixed' distribution of geneseed is entirely possible, and someone trying to make hybrid space marine chapters isn't beyond the pale either, though if it ever came to light I expect that chapter would be declared excommunicatus pretty quickly.

Unless they use other chapter’s geneseed. Many a cursed founding chapter with tons of mutation is rumored to do this. The priests that catalogue them can’t tell their from multiple different chapters though.

I think I disagree that 90% of all Chapters don't know their own geneseed. That's a bit extreme.

I'd certainly say there's an amount of Chapters who don't 100% know their true ancestors, but they're certainly in the minority. Let's face it, of all the Chapters we know, the majority have clearly defined geneseed relations.

Mixed/Chimeric geneseed is certainly a thing, but it's less like "oh, sweet, I have the powers of the Raven Guard AND the Night Lords" and more like "I know we're from the same Chapter and all, but Battle Brother Darnok over there is quoting 'The Dark Knight Rises' a lot." From what I gather, it's more that there's two or more seperate gene-stocks that go around the Chapter, not that they get combined.

This can be a fun plot hook - say the Master Apothecary KNOWS about this, and keeps it under wraps from everybody, only passing on this knowledge to the next Master Apothecary (or even the whole order of Apothecaries), and ensuring that only the "pure" Loyalist geneseed is sent off to Terra, so ensure their Loyalty. They have to secretly nurture their illegal cache of Night Lords geneseed, because Terra won't supply them any (heresy!), and they have to make sure that they have enough Raven Guard geneseed to send out to Terra, to avoid suspicion.
You end up with Apothecaries taking a bit TOO much of an active role in logistics, training, and they obsess over certain members of the Chapter more than others - a good mystery plot.

As for being Chimeric AND Traitor Legion: it's not impossible, but it IS stretching the bounds of the lore, and not only that, it's a little Mary Sue too, if not pulled off well. It can often seem like "my guys are going to be super COOL and EDGY because they have EVIL geneseed so they're all DARK ANTIHEROES".
Again, the main question is "how did they get traitor legion geneseed?" Cawl wasn't really active, or in as much control as he is now, during the Cursed Founding. We don't really have much to go on, so I'm not really sold on the "Cawl did it, because Cawl" idea. It's certainly POSSIBLE that a Techpriest can mix up the geneseed a bit, but don't forget, the training and founding of a Chapter is also overseen by the Astartes too. Unless something really bad happened, them having Traitor Legion geneseed should be caught by the Space Marines overseeing it.

Again, most Chapters rumoured to have Traitor Geneseed is just that - rumours. The Carcharadons were rumoured to have it, and then in the FW books, it's pretty much confirmed that they're Raven Guard who got too close to Horus. The only Chapter I could say are more likely imbued with traitor geneseed is the Blood Ravens with Thousand Sons geneseed, but it's not yet confirmed, and given the TS are the founders of ANOTHER loyal group (again, pretty much confirmed), there could be room for error.

So, back to "traitor geneseed" - how did they get it? How do they maintain it? They need supplies coming back in from Terra, so how would they get Traitor seed back from Terra, now under Guilliman's watchful eye? Also, in the OP, you say that they were "convinced"? So it's not even a secret? Why haven't they been purged yet by Guilliman?

Furthermore, there IS precedent for Marines to mask psykers and be "Blank" - the Exorcists are known for this. But they need to undergo a full daemonic possession to do this - your guys just get it naturally because you're half related to Corax, and it's something no other Raven Guard descendant has had? It could do with some tweaking.

There is per-Heresy untainted Traitor gene seed on Mars and Titan. In reality, the Reivers are VERY Night Lords-y. I wouldn't have put it past Cawl to have used Traitor Legion gene seed in Primaris Marines. After all, its untainted by Chaos as the day it was first made. If you like your idea, run with it. People forget, many or the original Founding members of the Grey Knights were pulled from the Death Guard and Emperor's Children. Hell, the first Supreme Grand Master was a Thousand Son.

It might also be interesting to explore some of the less obviously negative traits of your chosen 'traitor' legion when considering the influence of chimeric geneseed on your chapter. Konrad Kurze wasn't initially motivated by sadism, after all, but by a sense of justice (the infamous psychotic sadism of the later Night Lords was primarily a result of their rather dumb recruitment practices, not their geneseed). He turned against the Emperor (and later willingly embraced death) because he could not tolerate what he saw as the revolting hypocrisy of the Imperium.

These traits actually align quite nicely with ex-freedom fighter Corvus Corax and the Raven Guard as well.

Perhaps your chapter don't like what the Imperium has become over the millennia. Maybe they refuse to fight alongside the forces of the Adeptus Ministorum. Perhaps Inquisitors who try to requisition their aid or to investigate them tend to suffer unfortunate 'accidents'. Have they flat-out refused to carry out missions they deem unjust (such as punishing a whole planetary population for the actions of a single traitor)? Or the converse, have they refused to turn a blind eye to what they see as deviancy in the name of expediency (for example, did they destroy a valuable mining colony to ensure the eradication of a Chaos cult even though the Mechanicum demanded they avoid collateral damage?)

The subtle psychological influences of geneseed can be much more interesting than the more obvious physical traits like pale skin or oddly-coloured eyes.

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
There is per-Heresy untainted Traitor gene seed on Mars and Titan. In reality, the Reivers are VERY Night Lords-y. I wouldn't have put it past Cawl to have used Traitor Legion gene seed in Primaris Marines. After all, its untainted by Chaos as the day it was first made. If you like your idea, run with it. People forget, many or the original Founding members of the Grey Knights were pulled from the Death Guard and Emperor's Children. Hell, the first Supreme Grand Master was a Thousand Son.

The Grey Knights are clearly an exception to the norm, however. Not to mention that it was their Founders who were traitor-descended, not their actual geneseed. What happened with the Grey Knights probably wouldn't happen to a Cursed Founding Chapter created millenia down the line.

There may the untainted geneseed (and in fact, untainted or not, the Night Lords actually had a very stable geneseed. It was just the fact they recruited absolute psychopaths that messed them up), but just because it's there doesn't mean it would ever be used, and most likely not to the point where the HLOT know of it's use in a Chimeric Chapter.

Again, the taboo against geneseed is a precaution the Imperium take. Regardless if it's been vaulted away and there's no trace of it being corrupt, if it's related to Chaos, it's heresy to use it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think I disagree that 90% of all Chapters don't know their own geneseed. That's a bit extreme.

I'd certainly say there's an amount of Chapters who don't 100% know their true ancestors, but they're certainly in the minority. Let's face it, of all the Chapters we know, the majority have clearly defined geneseed relations.
.

Consider how many chapters have Unknown for “Successor of” in Lexicanum. Many just assume that they are Ultramarines if there isn’t a record.

The big Successor Chapters like Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Nova Marines, etc... have the benefit of knowing exactly where they come from. Then you have chapters like the Blood Ravens, Black Dragons, Minotaurs, etc... Who may not know who their Primarch was. Or care to know. I’ve seen stuff written that states chapters who don’t know their Primarch try to focus on the Emperor more so.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think I disagree that 90% of all Chapters don't know their own geneseed. That's a bit extreme.

I'd certainly say there's an amount of Chapters who don't 100% know their true ancestors, but they're certainly in the minority. Let's face it, of all the Chapters we know, the majority have clearly defined geneseed relations.
.

Consider how many chapters have Unknown for “Successor of” in Lexicanum. Many just assume that they are Ultramarines if there isn’t a record.

The big Successor Chapters like Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Nova Marines, etc... have the benefit of knowing exactly where they come from. Then you have chapters like the Blood Ravens, Black Dragons, Minotaurs, etc... Who may not know who their Primarch was. Or care to know. I’ve seen stuff written that states chapters who don’t know their Primarch try to focus on the Emperor more so.

I don't think it's the case nesscarily so much as GW shows us a chapter, doesn't mention who they're a sucessor of and we list it as unknown for the next 10 years until a random line in a codex gives away that they're a X sucessor chapter. Knights of the Raven are a good example. they where listed as unknown but the 7th edition SM codex just says "raven guard sucessor" no secret there

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think I disagree that 90% of all Chapters don't know their own geneseed. That's a bit extreme.

I'd certainly say there's an amount of Chapters who don't 100% know their true ancestors, but they're certainly in the minority. Let's face it, of all the Chapters we know, the majority have clearly defined geneseed relations.
.

Consider how many chapters have Unknown for “Successor of” in Lexicanum. Many just assume that they are Ultramarines if there isn’t a record.

The big Successor Chapters like Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Nova Marines, etc... have the benefit of knowing exactly where they come from. Then you have chapters like the Blood Ravens, Black Dragons, Minotaurs, etc... Who may not know who their Primarch was. Or care to know. I’ve seen stuff written that states chapters who don’t know their Primarch try to focus on the Emperor more so.

Just done a count of all the Chapters in Lexicanum, only Loyalist, and that could be ones who have fallen, been lost, corrupted, etc etc.

I know the list isn't perfect (Sons of Orar marked as Unknown? Really? We know they're Ultramarine stock), but out of the 300+ I counted, only 62% were Unknown.

So, not 90%.
Furthermore, just because WE don't know their ancestor doesn't mean they don't. Plus, considering that with many of these Chapters, all we get is a name (looking at you "Reparators" and "Falling Star"), I think their lack of a named ancestor isn't because it's unknown in universe - it's most likely because that Chapter hasn't been fleshed out beyond a name (not even a colour scheme!).

I could look into each of these 218-odd Unknown Chapters to see how much data is actually provided on each, and see if their "Unknown" status is affirmed in lore, or if it's just writers dropping names with no background.

I think I'd assume that most Chapters know their patronage - after all, it only rarely shows up where the Space Marines actually say they don't know, rather than the writer not filling in the blank.

After all, if we were to assume without information, we should assume that the Chapter Masters for all these Chapters are dead, because they have none listed.

also if chapters not knowing their primarch was common it'd make the blood raverns lore a bit... odd