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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Manchu wrote:

I think what we're seeing here is you have some posters who trot out the "agree with me or you are a misogynist" arguments and then you have other posters who take that bait, knowingly running with it to force a thread lock.

As much as is is said that that has been said, it is not actually said often. It is much more common for some people to start complain about 'feminist agenda ruining everything.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Sorry, guy. Some of us are just simply sick of this topic rearing its head where it's not welcome or wanted, just so that one party can label detractors 'the harmful underbelly of the gaming community'.

So maybe not just click the thread? If some people want to discuss female space marines, then let them. What do you care?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:12:49


   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 mrhappyface wrote:
Can't you create a sub-forum on here called "KEEP YOUR DAMN POLITICS IN HERE!" and just let them run wild calling each other poo-poo heads?
Nope, not on DakkaDakka. It's big internet and folks can find somewhere else to run wild.

   
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 Crimson wrote:
As much as is is said that that has been said, it is not actually said often. It is much more common for some people to start complain about 'feminist agenda ruining everything.'


It's not usually that direct, though.

Think about it this way, the justification for feminism is often dressed with how 'toxic' the gaming community is, or how it's a misogynist boys' club. Constantly.

That is not just an attack on me, that's on you, too. It's saying that either you're guilty of being a toxic person or complicit in its activity, and therefore still guilty. You and I have every right to put our feet down and say, "Wait, hold up- this is not how things are, it's not the norm, and if you're going to point out problems you'd better be prepared to substantiate it with evidence and name specific people and places. Otherwise we can't help you, and we're not going to start witch hunts."

So, no- it's never straight up 'agree with me or you're sexist'. It's more like, 'gaming has a problem'. And if you disagree, often we are reminded that those who benefit from the activity are blind to it. Come on, you and I both have seen this. You may not be guilty of it, but you've seen it.

IT HAS LITERALLY HAPPENED IN THIS THREAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
So maybe not just click the thread? If some people want to discuss female space marines, then let them. What do you care?


Because I would prefer not to see female Space Marines. That's part of the discussion, friend. And personally, the extremists of the feminism topic (and any other) should be made to feel very unwelcome. Reasonable people like you and I can discuss things and disagree.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:18:34


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me egalitarianism, and I'll agree. But feminism's 'equality' is about as much 'equality' as ISIS is peaceful.


It's interesting; I'd think a statement seriously comparing Eldar players or Star Trek fans or middle-aged divorcees or what have you to ISIS would draw a hell of a lot of blowback and some sort of colored text, and yet here it is, barely remarked on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:53:58


 
   
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 Spinner wrote:
It's interesting; I'd think a statement seriously comparing Eldar players or Star Trek fans or middle-aged divorcees or what have you to ISIS would draw a hell of a lot of blowback and some sort of colored text, and yet here it is, barely remarked on.


Which one of those is an ideology? Those sound like specific groups of people, and not an idea.

If I can't attack feminism, would it be reasonable to say that a religion, book, political affiliation, etc. cannot be attacked?

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
It's interesting; I'd think a statement seriously comparing Eldar players or Star Trek fans or middle-aged divorcees or what have you to ISIS would draw a hell of a lot of blowback and some sort of colored text, and yet here it is, barely remarked on.


Which one of those is an ideology? Those sound like specific groups of people, and not an idea.

If I can't attack feminism, would it be reasonable to say that a religion, book, political affiliation, etc. cannot be attacked?


Would it be reasonable to say that the ideologies espoused by Star Trek are similar to those espoused by ISIS?

I mean, come on. This is insane.
   
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 Spinner wrote:
Would it be reasonable to say that the ideologies espoused by Star Trek are similar to those espoused by ISIS?

I mean, come on. This is insane.


"Star Trek is actual garbage, and it disgusts me. It's AIDs and Cancer and stepping on Lego, ISIS incarnate"

See? I attacked a thing.

If I said Star Trek fans are garbage, that would be a different story.

(FYI, I'm indifferent to Star Trek because I don't watch it a lot)

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
As much as is is said that that has been said, it is not actually said often. It is much more common for some people to start complain about 'feminist agenda ruining everything.'


It's not usually that direct, though.

Think about it this way, the justification for feminism is often dressed with how 'toxic' the gaming community is, or how it's a misogynist boys' club. Constantly.

That is not just an attack on me, that's on you, too. It's saying that either you're guilty of being a toxic person or complicit in its activity, and therefore still guilty. You and I have every right to put our feet down and say, "Wait, hold up- this is not how things are, it's not the norm, and if you're going to point out problems you'd better be prepared to substantiate it with evidence and name specific people and places. Otherwise we can't help you, and we're not going to start witch hunts."

So, no- it's never straight up 'agree with me or you're sexist'. It's more like, 'gaming has a problem'. And if you disagree, often we are reminded that those who benefit from the activity are blind to it. Come on, you and I both have seen this. You may not be guilty of it, but you've seen it.

IT HAS LITERALLY HAPPENED IN THIS THREAD.


Saying that some community has a problem, is not same as saying that everybody in that community is participating in creating that problem. But yes, sexism is a problem in many gaming communities, doesn't mean all gamers are sexist (or even most. It only takes couple of donkey-caves to poison things.)


And personally, the extremists of the feminism topic (and any other) should be made to feel very unwelcome. Reasonable people like you and I can discuss things and disagree.

Perhaps you should not preemptively assume that people are extremists. Might work better. I have seen very few such extremists on Dakka.

   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

What I'm seeing ITT is a pretty good defense of the so-called heckler's veto - although I don't agree with that term because it's not "heckling" to disgaree with an accusation actually raised.

The basic issue is, Dakka Dakka is not an appropriate venue for mounting an attack on hobbyists generally that we are sexist because, presumably, some portion of us don't believe certain models should be released for the sake of making the world more equitable.

By raising this accusation, one is inviting an angry response. It's a poison seed that yields poisoned fruit.

   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
Would it be reasonable to say that the ideologies espoused by Star Trek are similar to those espoused by ISIS?

I mean, come on. This is insane.


"Star Trek is actual garbage, and it disgusts me. It's AIDs and Cancer and stepping on Lego, ISIS incarnate"


And it's still a stupid, stupid thing to say.

I suppose the short answer is that we can't have these threads because people with a hyperbolic axe to grind come running in going on about how adding marines with different bits and bobs is the same mindset that lines up people in the street and executes them.

Or something like that.

 Manchu wrote:

The basic issue is, Dakka Dakka is not an appropriate venue for mounting an attack on hobbyists generally that we are sexist because, presumably, some portion of us don't believe certain models should be released for the sake of making the world more equitable.


Why is it bad to generalize about hobbyists, but not bad to generalize about feminists?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:29:27


 
   
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 Crimson wrote:
Saying that some community has a problem, is not same as saying that everybody in that community is participating in creating that problem. But yes, sexism is a problem in many gaming communities, doesn't mean all gamers are sexist (or even most. It only takes couple of donkey-caves to poison things.)


Saying that my neighborhood has a problem is sort of saying that I have a problem. The 'community' is us. All of us.

And it only takes a couple of jerks to ruin things if you don't have the balls to actually do anything about it. Otherwise, you are complicit in their activity. Look, dude- we don't have these problems in real communities because we deal with them.

If I may be frank, the people screaming that we 'have a problem' are the people that also claim to have the 'cure' for that problem. I've said this before, but it's snake oil salespeople. People looking to exploit the sensibilities of otherwise good folks like you and I. Simply stated, the very people that believe we have a 'problem' are the people who are here to make problems.

 Crimson wrote:
Perhaps you should not preemptively assume that people are extremists. Might work better. I have seen very few such extremists on Dakka.


I don't. I've lashed out at the one that reared its head here. They aren't here, or in most places because the system is working.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Spinner wrote:
And it's still a stupid, stupid thing to say.


Well, good job missing the point there. If you confuse 'people' with an idea, then you aren't very reasonable or rational.


 Spinner wrote:
Why is it bad to generalize about hobbyists, but not bad to generalize about feminists?


Feminism. The idea. Not the people.

Wow, man- are you intentionally dodging the point?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:33:22


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






How is saying that some gamers might be sexists attack on gamers in general? I mean you must know that some people are sexist, and it would be pretty weird assumption that 40K gamers alone in whole humanity would be completely free of that malady.

   
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 Crimson wrote:
How is saying that some gamers might be sexists attack on gamers in general? I mean you must know that some people are sexist, and it would be pretty weird assumption that 40K gamers alone in whole humanity would be completely free of that malady.


No one disagrees that some gamers might be sexist. They might be thieves. Murderers, even. They are a collection of people, and just like any collection of people, there will be 'those guys' in the mix.

The problem is when we get our community reputation tarnished by fantastic articles like 'Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem' or the 'problem' is grossly blown out of proportion by individuals who cannot seem to manifest names, locations, or any other shred of evidence.

The problem is when we have more people that would rather not have female Space Marines, and other individuals accuse them of being 'sexist' or labeling it as a misogyny problem.

Let's be fair, gaming communities are like any other. Some scummy people exist. But we're not plagued any more than any other, in fact we might be much better people by comparison. While we agree that the problem individuals must be dealt with when they arise- the difference is that one group of people says 'we shouldn't tolerate bad people', the other says 'we should change the game because of the bad people'.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Let's be fair, gaming communities are like any other. Some scummy people exist. But we're not plagued any more than any other, in fact we might be much better people by comparison. While we agree that the problem individuals must be dealt with when they arise- the difference is that one group of people says 'we shouldn't tolerate bad people', the other says 'we should change the game because of the bad people'.

Those things are tangentially related at best. Sure, we should not tolerate bad people and sure there should be better gender representation in the game. Both of those things would probably make the women feel more welcome, but they're not directly related (and the former issue is obviously much more important than the latter.)

   
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 Spinner wrote:
It's interesting; I'd think a statement seriously comparing Eldar players or Star Trek fans or middle-aged divorcees or what have you to ISIS would draw a hell of a lot of blowback and some sort of colored text, and yet here it is, barely remarked on.


This thread is moving pretty fast now but this is my current take-away.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Well, this thread left me sadder and wiser.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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 Crimson wrote:
Those things are tangentially related at best. Sure, we should not tolerate bad people and sure there should be better gender representation in the game. Both of those things would probably make the women feel more welcome, but they're not directly related (and the former issue is obviously much more important than the latter.)


Right. And there is one thing you need to keep in mind. Let's take you and I, for example.

We can easily sit here and say, "Dude, we could use more female guard models. Like, that'd mean they would have to make new guardsmen and that would be awesome". And "We don't have enough Inquisitors, it would be awesome to have female and male Inquisitor kits".

You could tell me, "Dude, that guy Larry in the back is saying something lewd and hateful", and I'd have your back.

We have zero disagreements here.

And neither one of us need 'feminism' to be this way. We are perfectly capable of being rational adults, dealing with problems, and expressing what we think would be cool without feminism coming into the equation.

Because there's a HUGE difference once 'feminism' comes into the game, and in my experience it is never enough for them. Feminists whined because we didn't have enough models. Then they whined about Eschers and the Darkoath Warqueen. They will whine and complain and never stop.

That's why you and I may agree on things, but I just don't want that ideology involved.

 Actinium wrote:
This thread is moving pretty fast now but this is my current take-away.


If you can't differentiate between an idea, and actual people- you will have a very difficult time.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, this thread left me sadder and wiser.


No, it didn't.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:56:33


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Philadelphia PA

Feminism. The idea. Not the people.

Wow, man- are you intentionally dodging the point?


I don't. I've lashed out at the one [extremist] that reared its head here.


The "I'm not touching you" defense is kind of falling apart here huh?

Oh I just hate the idea that certain people are valid human being beings with rights, it certainly has no relation at all to these cancerous idiot extremists who are badwrong evil people.

See I'm just attacking the idea right?

--

This thread is moving pretty fast now but this is my current take-away.


That's the bottom line, apparently any troll can dish it out about those evil feminists, but anyone pointing out how that's exactly the problem (the generalizations, intentional misunderstandings and fabrications) is "attacking the whole community".

Oh boy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 23:57:28


I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy. 
   
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 ScarletRose wrote:
The "I'm not touching you" defense is kind of falling apart here huh?

Oh I just hate the idea that certain people are valid human being beings with rights, it certainly has no relation at all to these cancerous idiot extremists who are badwrong evil people.

See I'm just attacking the idea right?


Yes, and I can pick that argument apart and tear into it. Just like any other idea. An idea does not need protection, if it does- it is a weak idea and should not only be torn apart, but mocked. Into oblivion, to the point where people would be outright ashamed to admit they believed in it.

 ScarletRose wrote:
That's the bottom line, apparently any troll can dish it out about those evil feminists, but anyone pointing out how that's exactly the problem (generalizations, intentional misunderstandings and fabrications) is "attacking the whole community".

Oh boy.



Anyone who disagrees is a troll. See how you're doing that?

Circular logic is a fallacy.

Just because people do not welcome your ideology does not mean they have a problem. Your ideology is not essential for civil adults to interact. Please take it elsewhere.

Not wanting feminism involved in your hobby =/= 'a problem'. It's only a problem for people who can't let that ideology go. It's actually no different than asking for no politics or religion involved in discussions at the FLGS. If you cannot leave it at the door, the community does not have a problem. YOU do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 00:02:11


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Philadelphia PA


Yes, and I can pick that argument apart and tear into it. Just like any other idea. An idea does not need protection, if it does- it is a weak idea and should not only be torn apart, but mocked. Into oblivion, to the point where people would be outright ashamed to admit they believed in it.


So completely pretend there wasn't a quote calling a person an extremist and stick to the pseudo-intelctual "It's all ideas" argument?

Ok.

Just because people do not welcome your ideology does not mean they have a problem. Your ideology is not essential for civil adults to interact. Please take it elsewhere.


You first, I'm sure there's some men's "rights" group looking for it's wandering knight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 00:03:52


I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy. 
   
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You first, I'm sure there's some men's "rights" group looking for it's wandering knight.
There's irony in this post, but this topic has completely devolved down pretty much overtime as to be expected.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Right. And there is one thing you need to keep in mind. Let's take you and I, for example.

We can easily sit here and say, "Dude, we could use more female guard models. Like, that'd mean they would have to make new guardsmen and that would be awesome". And "We don't have enough Inquisitors, it would be awesome to have female and male Inquisitor kits".

You could tell me, "Dude, that guy Larry in the back is saying something lewd and hateful", and I'd have your back.

We have zero disagreements here.

And neither one of us need 'feminism' to be this way. We are perfectly capable of being rational adults, dealing with problems, and expressing what we think would be cool without feminism coming into the equation.

Because there's a HUGE difference once 'feminism' comes into the game, and in my experience it is never enough for them. Feminists whined because we didn't have enough models. Then they whined about Eschers and the Darkoath Warqueen. They will whine and complain and never stop.

That's why you and I may agree on things, but I just don't want that ideology involved.

Deciding that what Larry says is somehow a problem would be based on ideology whether you want to call it such or not. And you're seriously confused about feminism. Also, different people can actually have different opinions, even if they'd all identify as feminists. I'm sure there were some feminists who didn't like the Eschers or the Warqueen and plenty of others who did. Individual's opinion does not define the core of the ideology.

   
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 ScarletRose wrote:
So completely pretend there wasn't a quote calling a person an extremist and stick to the pseudo-intelctual "It's all ideas" argument?


That person was an actual extremist and I'll gladly stand by that accusation, regardless of what anyone thinks. And yes, ALL ideas. No idea is beyond question, criticism, or even mockery. If so, it is a weak idea and deserves every shred of ridicule thrown at it.


 ScarletRose wrote:
You first, I'm sure there's some men's rights group looking for it's wandering knight.


Well, throw in 'Alt-Right' and you've got the whole shebang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:

Deciding that what Larry says is somehow a problem would be based on ideology whether you want to call it such or not. And you're seriously confused about feminism. Also, different people can actually have different opinions, even if they'd all identify as feminists. I'm sure there were some feminists who didn't like the Eschers or the Warqueen and plenty of others who did. Individual's opinion does not define the core of the ideology.


Well, there's a pretty common standard on what's acceptable to say in certain environments, so we'll have to decide Larry's that actual pig/perv/douchebag.

Also, I'll concede that feminism is what you say. Maybe there are all different sorts. I would say I know feminists who are great, and they are focused on actual womens' rights and encouraging women to succeed, while bringing attention to women suffering in places with limited rights for women. Those are good feminists.

However, I think a clear view of what I want is "No identity politics in my community". A feminist like I mentioned above, and even you would be welcome. Someone whose entire purpose in the community is to rabble-rouse and invent problems like 'microaggressions' or twist peoples' words would not be. In other words, 'no extremists welcome'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 00:09:33


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Oh my God, I'm an actual extremist.

How exciting! I wonder if I'll get on a watchlist? Is there a weekly meeting or a badge or something? Do I get a participation trophy, or do I have to perform well? Do I have to spell it that way? I grew up in the nineties, so there's a strong predisposition to drop the first 'e' and add a hyphen.
   
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 Spinner wrote:
Oh my God, I'm an actual extremist.


I don't think you're who we were talking about. You're not an extremist. I just disagree with your understanding of groups and ideas.

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Philadelphia PA

That person was an actual extremist and I'll gladly stand by that accusation, regardless of what anyone thinks. And yes, ALL ideas. No idea is beyond question, criticism, or even mockery. If so, it is a weak idea and deserves every shred of ridicule thrown at it.



I can attack any idea (because ideas that are weak need to be purged, grrr) but personal attacks are totally ok because... ideas.

So considering this has gotten to just repetition without any self-awareness I don't think the conversation has very far to go from here.

Well, throw in 'Alt-Right' and you've got the whole shebang.


Meh, there haven't been any of the buzzwords they typically throw around. I don't see a point in false accusation since I'm not wrapped up in some narcissistic conspiracy about people coming for "my community".


I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not wanting feminism involved in your hobby =/= 'a problem'.

Just no. Feminism is about equality of sexes. Saying that you want feminism in your hobby is saying you don't want equality of sexes in your hobby. You're basically saying that you want discrimination based on gender. Not OK, just like saying that you want to discrimination based on ethnicity or sexuality would not be OK.

   
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 Crimson wrote:

Just no. Feminism is about equality of sexes. Saying that you want feminism in your hobby is saying you don't want equality of sexes in your hobby. You're basically saying that you want discrimination based on gender. Not OK, just like saying that you want to discrimination based on ethnicity or sexuality would not be OK.


Wrong.

Feminism, my friend, is literally focused entirely on one gender. ONE gender.

I want egalitarianism in my hobby. I want all person treated with dignity and respect. I do not want anything focused entirely on ONE group of persons, I want ALL people cared for and welcomed.

Back in the old days, we called this being polite and treating people with respect. But 'equality for all' is not good enough for feminists?

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
Oh my God, I'm an actual extremist.


I don't think you're who we were talking about. You're not an extremist. I just disagree with your understanding of groups and ideas.


Aw, well, that's not fair. You can't get me all hyped up like that and then hit me with that letdown.

I wanted to make placards.
   
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 ScarletRose wrote:
I can attack any idea (because ideas that are weak need to be purged, grrr) but personal attacks are totally ok because... ideas.


Who was personally attacked? Are you lying to make your point have some shred of validity?

Also, IRONY.

 ScarletRose wrote:
So considering this has gotten to just repetition without any self-awareness I don't think the conversation has very far to go from here.


IRONY.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Meh, there haven't been any of the buzzwords they typically throw around. I don't see a point in false accusation since I'm not wrapped up in some narcissistic conspiracy about people coming for "my community".


Nah, you're just attempting to discredit the argument, while actually embodying the very toxic behavior that this thread is about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Spinner wrote:
I wanted to make placards.


Placards? Son, we get special LICENSE PLATES.

It says "extremist" in Old English letters, next to your state.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 00:17:22


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