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Does the Wraithknights ability Titanic Feet generate an additional 3 attacks for each 6 rolled for its original 12 attacks when using the Stratagem Supreme Disdain?

The wording on Titanic Feet is to roll 3 dice to hit for each attack made with this weapon instead of 1, and Supreme Disdain is the usual rolls of a 6+ to hit generate an additional attack (which then get 3 hit rolls from Titanic Feet)?

The wording is difficult and I have seen this come up before.

Just for perspective, this came up with mortarion using his sweeping attack that multiplies one into six and scoring a 6 and generating an additional attack, this caused an argument between the players as to whether this generated an additional on or six attacks and one of the store people (This was a GW store) said it only generates one as you only make an additional attack with the weapon profile, not gain another attack and choose a profile to use.

They played it that way because you don't argue with their rulings unless you want the staff smite to be bust out (D6 mortal wounds no saves of any kind, just to keep people from dragging on) but this is possibly something that needs an FAQ if it hasn't already.

Ok so I know a few armies have similar abilities (6 either to hit or wound generate extra attacks) and i can see that the weapon profile on attacks with multiple die actually state "Make X hit rolls instead of 1 for each attack made with this weapon"

The rules are pretty specific about this. The ability in question says to resolve a single attack for the 6 rolled using the weapon profile for the unit, in this case titanic feet.

That 1 attack generates 3 to hit rolls.

Im guessing Supreme distain has something like (on a 6 to hit/ to wound you generate an additional attack with the weapon profile chosen) so RAW and RAI is saying that you roll 3 to hit rolls for each attack, and each one of those either on a 6 to wound or hit will generate another attack which uses the same profile, which is 3 to hit rolls for one attack.

You would be correct in that RAW does indeed fall under each roll can generate an additional attack that generates X 'to hit' rolls

So yes, when attacking with the Titanic Feet profile you roll 3 dice to hit per attack, which means you're rolling 12 dice for the 4 attacks on the Knighst profiles (4 attacks base * 3 hit rolls per attack).

You then generate on average 2 6's to hit, which with Supreme Disdain generate an additional attack each - using the same Titanic Feet profile you're then told to roll 3 dice per attack - so this increases the attacks generated to 6 attacks, right? (2 additional attacks * 3 hit rolls per attack).

Exactly. Each ATTACK by Titanic Feet results in 3 to-hit rolls, which means when you get to generate an additional attack with the Titanic Feet, you get 3 hit rolls per additional attack.

So on average, you can make a WK have 18 attacks with his feet. Nice.

 Galef wrote:
So on average, you can make a WK have 18 attacks with his feet. Nice.

You should see Morty in action against Imperials...

shakul wrote:
So yes, when attacking with the Titanic Feet profile you roll 3 dice to hit per attack, which means you're rolling 12 dice for the 4 attacks on the Knighst profiles (4 attacks base * 3 hit rolls per attack).

You then generate on average 2 6's to hit, which with Supreme Disdain generate an additional attack each - using the same Titanic Feet profile you're then told to roll 3 dice per attack - so this increases the attacks generated to 6 attacks, right? (2 additional attacks * 3 hit rolls per attack).

I don't think this is correct. As stated above I believe you have one extra attack at the same profile that you originally used for your wraith knight.

The same way as how the ork dakka dakka stratagem doesn't generate a number of extra shots equal to weapon profile per 6 rolled, it merely generates one extra shot at the same profile.

So 12 to hit rolls generates average of 2 extra attacks at the same profile. Not 6 extra attacks.

 Galef wrote:
So on average, you can make a WK have 18 attacks with his feet. Nice.

Also thrown in the Psytronome of Iyanden for extra chuckles..

It has been majority ruled in a lot of tournies to allow the extra attack from a 6 to give the 3 extra.

I don't personally believe it works that way, but majority does.

When it says to use the weapons profile for the "extra attack" i do not construe that to mean your adding a base attack with the weapon. It should just count as one "extra attack" using the weapons STR, AP, and Damage.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
It has been majority ruled in a lot of tournies to allow the extra attack from a 6 to give the 3 extra.

I don't personally believe it works that way, but majority does.

When it says to use the weapons profile for the "extra attack" i do not construe that to mean your adding a base attack with the weapon. It should just count as one "extra attack" using the weapons STR, AP, and Damage.

By that logic a Power Fist never has -1 to hit. A profile includes the WHOLE profile, special rules included. "Extra" attacks are not any different from "normal" attacks.

Seems pretty simple to me.

The weapon says you roll 3 dice instead of 1 every time you make an attack with that weapon. You replace the number of dice you are rolling for that singular attack.

The Supreme Disdain stratagem says you make an extra attack on given a condition. In this case, each time you roll 6+. So each time you roll a 6+, you generate another attack.

The stratagem allows for an additional attack to be made on an attack roll of 6+. The weapon says every time you make an attack with that weapon, you roll 3 dice instead of 1. You generate one new attack that rolls 3 dice instead of 1.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


The same way as how the ork dakka dakka stratagem doesn't generate a number of extra shots equal to weapon profile per 6 rolled, it merely generates one extra shot at the same profile.

That's not an equitable comparison, you can't say "it doesn't work like that for DDD" when no one is saying that's how SD works by itself. It's SD combined with the special weapon rule. If there was an ork gun that had a similar special rule to the feet, then the DDD strat would interact with it in the same way. You'd roll for your number of attacks if it was D-whatever shots or fixed number it tells you, then roll X dice instead of 1 for each of those attacks, and every time you rolled a 6 you'd generate an additional attack. And again, every time you make an attack with that weapon, you roll X dice instead of 1.

(Sorry for edits and stuff, mobile and formatting and changes to make my example with DDD make more sense since it's for the shooting phase and not fight phase.)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

shakul wrote:
So yes, when attacking with the Titanic Feet profile you roll 3 dice to hit per attack, which means you're rolling 12 dice for the 4 attacks on the Knighst profiles (4 attacks base * 3 hit rolls per attack).

You then generate on average 2 6's to hit, which with Supreme Disdain generate an additional attack each - using the same Titanic Feet profile you're then told to roll 3 dice per attack - so this increases the attacks generated to 6 attacks, right? (2 additional attacks * 3 hit rolls per attack).

I don't think this is correct. As stated above I believe you have one extra attack at the same profile that you originally used for your wraith knight.

The same way as how the ork dakka dakka stratagem doesn't generate a number of extra shots equal to weapon profile per 6 rolled, it merely generates one extra shot at the same profile.

So 12 to hit rolls generates average of 2 extra attacks at the same profile. Not 6 extra attacks.

We are not saying anything about generating any extra attacks, we are still only using 2 attacks but following the rules of the CC weapon in question, we roll 3 'to hit' rolls per attack, 2x3 = 6 'to hit' rolls, we are still only using 2 attacks, but those attacks each have 3 die they are rolling.

Orks Dakka Dakka works exactly how it is worded, because no shooting weapon has the same rules as CC weapons in regards to extra 'to hit' rolls. If shooting weapons indeed had this rule they would function the same way, it's why tempestus only get an extra shot while this ability in CC gives you 3 die per attack for a wraithknight, it's function is inherently different, cant compare apples to oranges

Does Supreme Disdain concern attack rolls or to hit rolls?

If it's the former then as per the logic here it wouldn't effect the stratagem at all. If it's the latter I guess you're right.

Supreme Disdain

Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model in this unit during this phase, it can immediately make an extra attack against the same target using the same weapon.

Titanic Feet

Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon, instead of 1.

So yeah, it references hit rolls. Even beyond that, I don't see how that would have made a difference. When do you make an attack roll and when do you make a hit roll?

attack roll is not a thing, it's only hit rolls.

Usually it is 1 attack = 1 to hit roll. But units have weapons that allow 1 attack = X to hit roll

It's still only 1 attack, the only difference is that it is X die per attack


And yea... supreme distain references to hit roll, it's the same for death to the false emperor

Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can, if it was targeting an IMPERIUM unit, immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks

Just to muddy this a little further then:

1 attack with 3 hit rolls is the same is the same as 3 attacks right? I mean we don't roll 3 hit rolls but then only carry on to wounding with a maximum of 1 of those hit rolls (regardless of how many hits we scored), because its still only 1 attack, do we?

The 3 to hit rolls aren't there just to improve the accuracy of the Titanic Feet - they can generate 3 attacks per attack on the Knights profile?

this has come up before with Magnus/Mortarion (I forget which). One attack with some weapons does multiple to hit rolls. There's no more to it than that... don't overthink it.

So if you get a bonus attack with the weapon in the OP you make 3 to hit rolls. Nowt more complex than that. You're just using the weapon profile as directed.

shakul wrote:
Just to muddy this a little further then:

1 attack with 3 hit rolls is the same is the same as 3 attacks right? I mean we don't roll 3 hit rolls but then only carry on to wounding with a maximum of 1 of those hit rolls (regardless of how many hits we scored), because its still only 1 attack, do we?

The 3 to hit rolls aren't there just to improve the accuracy of the Titanic Feet - they can generate 3 attacks per attack on the Knights profile?

1. Technically no. The 1 attack with 3 'to hit' rolls is still one attack. And no, you still wound with potentially all three 'to hit' rolls, even though it was only one attack.

2. No, they arent there for accuracy. Instead this is basically the 8th edition version of stomp attacks, which if you remember was a blast template on top of a unit, rolling to see what happened to them. They added these so that big units still felt like they had that 'oomph' from last edition, without making them have ridiculous amounts of attacks ( I mean can you imagine a knight with a minimum of 10+ attacks?, that would be insane if they had something like that while having a weapon that dealt 2x str and 6 dmg, nothing would survive a charge from it)

It was a compromise for big units as a result of a past mechanic actually being useful for the units in question (big LOW's, Specialised Melee units) without being bogged down by the classic tar pit. Would be pretty embarrasing if a knight could only kill four ork boys a turn as their ripping into it with their 20+ attacks)