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usmcmidn wrote: I feel this thread is a lot of complaining by players who field lots of Lords of War and expecting them to single handily destroy a whole army by themselves
This
Not exactly.... I have a Lord of Skulls and have not fielded him in 8th edition.
I say this because my 3 Laspreds die too easily. Some games, they are all gone before I get my first turn. You pay a lot of points for them, they have a lot of destructive potential, but so does everything else.
For about the same price, I can field 120 Cultists. They're not going to shoot up anything from across the board, but they are not going to be blown away in a single turn. I have stratagems that let me sit them on objectives where nothing can move them.
The trade off between elite units versus lots of bodies seems to be leaning too heavily towards the bodies. That's what people are really saying.
The trade off between elite units versus lots of bodies seems to be leaning too heavily towards the bodies. That's what people are really saying.
Well this is entirely subjective though.
Every list seems to have a balance of infantry and bigger stuff.
This is just the first time smaller dudes have contributed in any meaningful way in some time.
And the "smaller dudes" aren't the ones invalidating your big stuff that dies quickly - it's the "elite dudes" who have high powered weapons, or "guard dudes" who fire insane volumes of high str/high ap dice.
This whole thread seems like it's taken quite a turn.
"My lord of skulls dies too fast. Nerf hormagants, buff elite killers." effectively what i'm hearing.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: "My lord of skulls dies too fast. Nerf hormagants, buff elite killers." effectively what i'm hearing.
Nerf is a strong word. More noticing that the meta favors large blobs of smaller units.
It affects my lists. I am running more cultists now than anything big.
People run small units out of necessity.
Alpha strike is bonkers without screening units. It's not the cheap units that are dictating this meta - they are in response to it.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
One of the biggest mistakes was not giving heavier vehicles and things like that a kind of 'invulnerable' save against items with Rend of -1 or 0. Same could go for some of the more elite/points heavy infantry with what is supposed to be really good armor saves.
Kanluwen wrote: One of the biggest mistakes was not giving heavier vehicles and things like that a kind of 'invulnerable' save against items with Rend of -1 or 0. Same could go for some of the more elite/points heavy infantry with what is supposed to be really good armor saves.
I agree. Look at Deathwatch and Deathwing. 20pts per marine.... you fail that 3+ (most likely a 4 or 5 with the amount of ap in the game) and boom! 20 or 80pts off the table off the table from a 6pt model. Terminators are even worse! 250pts per squad sometimes and I've seen them crushed by half the amount of points.
Plasma Scions vs Terminators for example: 110pts+ vs 250pts+
Scions just wait for terminators to drop in, they drop in 9" away and fire 10 plasma shots hitting 3s and wounding on 2s (obviously overcharging because there is more scions where that came from!). My maths shows 3 dead terminators, meaning about 150pts down the drain. You fire back and you're likely to not even kill 1.
These are supposed to be unstoppable killing machines that can take entire star systems with only like 2 guys and 3 are taken down by 5 humans...
This i feel is the major problem... it is not the big titan legion or super heavies own by the rich dudes... it's the people who had elite armies that can be taken down by half the points. It's not balanced... I don't own an elite army but I have a Deathwing friend whose army is taking a beating this edition.
Kanluwen wrote: One of the biggest mistakes was not giving heavier vehicles and things like that a kind of 'invulnerable' save against items with Rend of -1 or 0. Same could go for some of the more elite/points heavy infantry with what is supposed to be really good armor saves.
Anti-tank firepower is just way too strong. If people were actually chipping these big models down with low strength, low AP weapons, they'd be incredibly viable.
If Imperial Knights reduced damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1, that would be a different story. Think about how durable Eldar tanks are. or perhaps a "concentrated void shield," which gives a 4+ invulnerable save against weapons with a strength of 8 or better.
I would also give reaper Chainswords the special rule that they ignore all saves (invulnerable and otherwise), including "feel no pain". Lastly i would let a Knight fire its weapons even if it was involved in melee - but only against targets it wasn't fighting in the melee. Kind of like yeah you can stomp stuff, but it's pretty difficult to aim those guns straight down, and you run the risk of blowing off your own feet.
Of course i'm not talking about terminators. Terminators are already plenty durable. If you have a stormshield and a 2+/3++, i have no sympathy for you. Do you know how hard it is for me to deal with that as Tyranids?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/19 23:28:48
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I dunno. Like, Genestealers vs Terminators with TH/SS is pretty one sided. And Genestealers are a cheap troops choice you can deepstrike that can advance and charge...
Scions just wait for terminators to drop in, they drop in 9" away and fire 10 plasma shots hitting 3s and wounding on 2s (obviously overcharging because there is more scions where that came from!). My maths shows 3 dead terminators, meaning about 150pts down the drain. You fire back and you're likely to not even kill 1.
How do they fire 10 shots? At best you'll fire 8 from a single squad.
These are supposed to be unstoppable killing machines that can take entire star systems with only like 2 guys and 3 are taken down by 5 humans...
See if you don't buy into the Marines = gods, this is perfectly fine, humans with weapons made to kill heavily armored targets kill said targets. Imagine. My. Shock.
Not saying the opposite, but writting ''humans can kill them'' is a crappy arguments, and its probably some IG players are so antogonistic towards SM players.
Genestealers are not "cheap" they are 12ppm maby compared to terminators but against most things that puts them middle of the road to expensive. You also need to pay for some sort of delivery system weather it's a Tyrannocyte at over 100pts or a Tyrgon at 170ish pts or even (with one hive fleet only) the cheapest option a brood of raviners for 71pts and a CP to do it.
I find you just need to ether build expecting the alpha ether by reserving all your expencive things or layering defences like - to hits and cover and staying behing blos terrain. It's a much different game from 7th and many people are not adjusting well.
Wile there are still some offenders I find the system at it's core to be fine.
Bobthehero wrote: Not saying the opposite, but writting ''humans can kill them'' is a crappy arguments, and its probably some IG players are so antogonistic towards SM players.
There is a big disconnect between lore and TT. Alot of those marine players get pumped up GW's bolter porn then get a nasty dose of reality when they play. Lore as it is cannot match TT. If that were the case then 100 points of marines or CSM would be wiping out 2000 point forces. If GW toned down the power fantasy that is pushed on marine players and to a extent, CSM players then this would not be a issue.
I still stand by my stance that 500 point models should last long enough to at least take a turn with them, one turn, just one. In retrospect the problem is d6 damage spikes and most d6 damage should be changed to a flat amount like 3. Ive had games where Magnus never dies due to my opponent fielding few las-cannons and I played a game two weeks ago where he died 1st turn (and I still won, because if a alpha list cant table you turn 2 then its pretty smooth sailing). I feel the killing power of most super heavies is greatly exaggerated and alot of holdout hate comes from idiotic invis Magnus and Knights. Knights do a meager amount of damage this edition and Magnus is about right for his price damage wise. Morty on the otherhand, that is some nasty damage.
And for the people saying that the proponents of decreased damage are LoW spammers who get upset when they cant table a army, is pure hyperbole at best and blatant idiocy at worst. Making sweeping generalizations with zero evidence adds literally nothing to the thread.
Melta weapons would be damage 5 or 6 at half range.
Same thing for number of shots.
Looks good.
To be honest, after battle shock, the random shots is what I dislike most about the current rules. I can live with random damage, but potentially rolling 1s and 2s for RoF is a kick in the balls, especially for weapons that depend on multiple hits to do their jobs. If they had to go with random, having a battle cannon or flamer be 1d3+3 instead of 1d6 is how I wish they would have gone.
I voted yes. too much damage especially in the first turn. I played in a tournament this weekend and one play lost 80% of his army in the first turn to a blood angels player. The biggest problem in my opinion is that too many games are decided in the first turn. wining the "who goes first dice roll" is deciding to much.
Most things don't cause too much damage. Meltas for example, can do a lot of damage, but they are not overpowered because there is a risk involved - you have to get close.
The real problem is the Lascannon/equivalent long range D6 damage. There are too many of them available and there is no risk to their use case. They just ruin vehicles/monsters from a distance. They are a no brainer.
The other issue is that plasma guns are too good, or rather, the risks of overcharging are too easily mitigated. Overcharging is fun and a great rule but every man, woman, child, kroot, has access to rerolling 1s to hit. This means they rip through 2w units like paper. It isn't that they do much damage in of themselves, but that they cause too much damage without any form of downside. They shred armour, vehicles, elite infantry etc.
Some kind of night fighting return would go a long way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/20 13:32:09
Bobthehero wrote: Not saying the opposite, but writting ''humans can kill them'' is a crappy arguments, and its probably some IG players are so antogonistic towards SM players.
Not really... This argument was meant to be taken as a whole alongside my arguments with points. Terminators are meant to be super elite unbeatable troops (hence why only 5 can be pointed at 200-300pts). While humans are plentiful and why they're half the value of a marine. So if 1 cheap model (AKA Human) can beat 1 elite super heavy model (AKA Terminator) then it's both unbalanced and lore breaking.
I don't play terminators (as mentioned) and I play Orks! So get that mind set old excuse out of your head immediately. But if a troop is being decimated by another troop that is a fraction of the cost then there is something wrong and makes it seem like humans are just as strong as marines. But, if you needed 250pts of humans to beat 250pts of terminators then that would both be balanced and seem lore friendly (as you would need lots of humans to take down 1 marine but not so many you're sinking points into.
What happens when the Terminators go first vs the Scions? I am curious. And I certainly don't view Terminators dying to a single plasma gun lorebreaking.
Edit: Your numbers are also wrong, as a mininal squad of Terminators is 200 pts, not 250 pts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/20 14:50:42
Bobthehero wrote: What happens when the Terminators go first vs the Scions? I am curious. And I certainly don't view Terminators dying to a single plasma gun lorebreaking.
Edit: Your numbers are also wrong, as a mininal squad of Terminators is 200 pts, not 250 pts.
The points depends entirely on weapons. If you go for the cheapest possible options (which is unlikely seen as the Scions haven't) then yes it will be 200pts If the termis go first you're likely to kill 4 scions... Which for a unit worth double the points isn't much seen as the Scions can just have another squad to do even more damage. But the whole scions vs terminators was just an example... there are plenty like it where Elite units are valued at Elite points but don't do nearly the same damage output (or even have defence against) as troops that are half the value.
Bobthehero wrote: What happens when the Terminators go first vs the Scions? I am curious. And I certainly don't view Terminators dying to a single plasma gun lorebreaking.
Edit: Your numbers are also wrong, as a mininal squad of Terminators is 200 pts, not 250 pts.
The points depends entirely on weapons. If you go for the cheapest possible options (which is unlikely seen as the Scions haven't) then yes it will be 200pts If the termis go first you're likely to kill 4 scions... Which for a unit worth double the points isn't much seen as the Scions can just have another squad to do even more damage. But the whole scions vs terminators was just an example... there are plenty like it where Elite units are valued at Elite points but don't do nearly the same damage output (or even have defence against) as troops that are half the value.
You're looking at only part of the picture, though.
The elites are paying for damage and resiliency both, while the cheaper troops have only damage. However, they have to choose how to tailor this damage, and one option (Plasma Guns) happens to let them be tailored against Elites. So yes, a cheaper, ultra-specialized unit will do better in its role than a generalist unit with much greater durability. And if it's role is "kill elite units" then a specialist cheap unit should (and does) beat a generalist elite unit.
Now, set them both up as generalist units, e.g. give the Scions hot-shot volleyguns or flamers or something, and keep the Terminators as a generalist unit (say, an assault cannon + 4 Storm Bolters or something). See how well the cheaper scions do then. And yes, I do see your retort coming: "scions only use plasma/you never see generalist scions/flamers are bad." But none of those are actually problems with the cheaper unit - rather, they are problems with the weapons. I do maintain that a specialist tailored to kill elites should beat generalist elites 9 times out of 10 though. Since they're specializing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 15:29:56
Units shouldn't have the ability to 1 turn kill units that are double or triple their points! Or you're having games where elite only armies stand no chance. I believe there should be anti elite units but they should be appropriately priced. And when I say unit, I mean weapons included in that unit so I mean overall points not base unit. If a terminator unit had a higher toughness to defend against plasma or all had 6 heavy shots each, then it wouldn't be a problem because a cheap unit isn't going to 1 turn kill it and it can fight back.
But i use this as an example for the overall problem. Deathwatch marines is another example.
But i hear gw fixed this problem with golden Mehriens.
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