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 Niiai wrote:
In the good old days the SM where police. There is a particularly good picture of 2 SM laying down the law on one artist with a canister of paint. I cannot help but feel all of this that have come later might not be for the better.

That's Rogue trader picture.

Without a doubt Cawl and the Primaris Marines. They were just shoehorned in with so much background missing, and a heaping serving of deus ex machina to boot. As it stands, there's nothing currently interesting or compelling about them. Moreover, the arrangement of their fighting formations flies in the face of everything we know about the Codex Astartes. I also think they make very little sense as Guilliman's pet project since Intercessor and Hellblaster squads, in particular, are so different that their Tactical and Devastator counterparts.

Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

As far as the two lost legions are concerned, I wish GW would just go ahead and solidify some information about them. I think it's fairly well known that the two missing legions were considered expunged so that players could have creative freedom to make their own Legion and associated Primarch. But this hasn't panned out, really. For as long as I've been in the hobby, attempts to make custom Legions/Primarchs have largely been met with derision and contempt, with rare exception.

Some things that annoy me:

That everyone loves Primaris. I'd be ok with them if they were their own new armies, hated and feared by "Old" space marines. That would fit 40k. Or if at least there was some serious friction. It is hard to see one group of supermen welcoming a bigger bunch of supermen, or magically turning marines into even bigger marines. Weak sauce justification of bigger models.

Current Grey Knight fluff is weak, especially compared to how they work on the table top. Why would the greatest (until Custodes) warriors in the galaxy ride in a rhino? They made more sense with Landraiders and Storm Ravens.

Most accounts of worlds falling are dumb and hard to believe.

The darkening of the Tau Fluff. I liked them as niave to the point of stupidity, not as "Yet another gang of genocidal jerks".

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
In the good old days the SM where police. There is a particularly good picture of 2 SM laying down the law on one artist with a canister of paint. I cannot help but feel all of this that have come later might not be for the better.

That's Rogue trader picture.

Yes. After that it gets a bit muddled with lore welded onto other lore.

The SM were the "worst of the worst" brainwiped, reprogrammed and reutilised as humanity's elite warriors in the beginning. They weren't even T4 and terminator armour didn't even exist yet.

Then 2nd ed hit and the long slow slide turning them into crusading space knights began (adding "religiousity" into the game, the cult of the corpse-emperor and their equally blind many-angled-star worshippers).

It's never been "literature", but it certainly started to smell worse in the mid-90s.

The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.

 chromedog wrote:
Then 2nd ed ... (adding "religiousity" into the game, the cult of the corpse-emperor and their equally blind many-angled-star worshippers).

This is nonsense. Imperial citizens being a bunch of superstitious pseudo-mediaeval-peasants ruled by the Adeptus Terra, "the Priesthood of Earth"; universal and mandatory worship of the Corpse-Emperor on the Golden Throne; technology and science being misunderstood and controlled by a sect of crazy priests; Space Marines being referred to as "Angels of Death" and "battle-brothers" and living in "fortress-monasteries" - all these things are in the "What is Warhammer 40,000" article in WD93 that introduced the original Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader book way back in 1987.

It's things like the Emperor and the Space Marines being atheists that is a (relatively) recent retcon. The pervasive religiosity was there from the start.

Always disliked (hated) Kellys 5th ed DE codex.
The way he wrote the lore you'd swear they were one step away from conquering the Galaxy (or at least had the potential too).
The newer fluff is much more enjoyable with the infighting, backstabbing and Commorragh on the brink.

Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The worst lore is the Ynnari being able to reverse the Rubric. Completely cheapens Ahriman's quest that some cat lady can just snap her fingers and solve the entire problem.

Dead right. This was one of the most frustrating things to have seen in the new lore.

Well, maybe Ahriman should have spent more time in the (black) Library, then? What's his excuse!

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.

Agreed. Not a big fan of this.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.

I'm kind of holding onto hope that come the siege of Terra the whole perpetual thing becomes important and actually ends up explaining something, or acheiving something, because right now I agree it seems largely "pointless space magic"

Agreed on Perpetuals.

"Too important to die. So he can't."

IOW, "Plot armor is canon".

Agreed. Perpetuals is probably the worst single thing.

It's practically impossible to narrow down any one single thing with so much bad, most of which (that I can think of) has been brought up already.

I think at this point it seems we can all (most) collectively agree to just reset back to around 3rd ED and try this whole thing again from there? Yeah? Good.

 Mattlov wrote:
The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.

Basically all the Primarchs have this though.

Rogal Dorn?

Rogal (compound word formed from royal and regal), Dorn (native Briton word for fist).

Et cetera.

By today's standards? Most Rogue Trader stuff. I'm sure back then it was 'awesome', but now it's mostly cringe-inducing.

Other than that- Perpetuals, yeah.

And a lot of that weird stuff Ward wrote.

nareik wrote:

 Mattlov wrote:
The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.

Basically all the Primarchs have this though.

Rogal Dorn?

Rogal (compound word formed from royal and regal), Dorn (native Briton word for fist).

Et cetera.

Huh, never knew that. Ok, so where does Robute Guilliman come from?

 Commander Endova wrote:
Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

I could see him "coming back" but not as a primarch per se. Master Of Mankind hints that you could, in theory, have a sort of Ghost Ferrus as a lord of war for the Legion Of The Damned.
The Animus Malorem being Ferrus' Skull would make a wierd sort of sense.

I can't think of anything that is as bad as the ongoing trash that is the flandersiation of the Space Wolves and to a lesser but still embressing level the Blood and Dark Angels.

There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

Perpetuals. How.. how how how HOW could they come up with something that pathetically bad. Just BAD in every sense of the word.

I mean WHO thought that they'd be a good addition to this universe?

Are they supposed to be some desperate way to write in superheroes into 40k, since those are really popular at the moment?

Say, an ancient mystic who achieved immortality by achieving some "oneness with the universe" stuff - ok, fine why not, or some alien artifact or... just something more than "they were born that way"

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Perpetuals. How.. how how how HOW could they come up with something that pathetically bad. Just BAD in every sense of the word.

I mean WHO thought that they'd be a good addition to this universe?

Are they supposed to be some desperate way to write in superheroes into 40k, since those are really popular at the moment?

Say, an ancient mystic who achieved immortality by achieving some "oneness with the universe" stuff - ok, fine why not, or some alien artifact or... just something more than "they were born that way"

30 beers, a little recreational marijuana, and a 12 hour Highlander Marathon. That's my theory.

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

I hate to say it, but that's what I got from the GK fluff was that they weren't so much corrupted so much as soaking in it just like any other Sorcerers.

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

It's an audiobook, I think. It makes it seem slightly less ridiculous than the concept sounds on paper, but I think that's due in part to both the voice-work and the way Mortarion is portrayed.

Slipspace wrote:You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons.

Nah, that's fair. Crowe's concept is cool, but it makes very little sense when applied logically.

Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos.

Got to disagree there. Firstly, Mordrak isn't dead. You're thinking of Thawn, a regular Justicar who is rumoured to be a Perpetual (you can air your grievances with Perpetuals, but it is explained why he can come back). But Mordrak's Ghost Knights are no more related to Chaos than the Legion of the Damned are - who are actually ghosts guided by the Emperor, not Chaos. If the LOTD are fine, then surely the Ghost Knights are too, right?

Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection".

Considering the Imperium and the Warp, it absolutely makes sense that such a ritual might need to be done, and might actually work.
The issues with it are that the Grey Knights are said to be incorruptible anyways, so them needing protection is a little counterintuitive* and that they slaughtered Sisters of Battle, who are also incredibly resistant to corruption.**

Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

Which gets expanded upon and actually given further detail and depth. If your issue is with Draigo being able to carve his forebear's name into Mortarion's heart (which he should find easier to do than any other Space Marine, considering that he's a Grey Knight, armed with prodigious amounts of specifically anti-Daemon weaponry, and armed with Mortarion's true name, I believe.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

Corrupting the Chapter is just pointlessly edgy. Without light, there can be no darkness, yadda yadda - and besides, the "darkness" of the Grey Knights comes from their actions in things like the aftermath of the Armageddon War, not from some kind of corruption. You can be pure from the Warp, but your actions may be horrific.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.