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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:You see, more and more of the important events seem to center around a small cast of character, incidently ones we know of, on the planets we know of. Rest of the universe is incidental at best and irrelevant at worst. The 400 billion stars of our galaxy are meaningless when a few places we happen to know of have bad things happen in them - suddenly there's a warpstorm bigger than Eye of Terror that is created by setting a gas cloud on fire and blowing few planets, because those happen to be some of the few we know - there for, they are of greater importance that the rest. Apparently the Eldar weren't that mighty, since they only managed to create the Eye -and War in Heaven was even less so, since that didn't create any warpstorm we know of - Old Ones sure were pathetic since Chaos worshipping humans can cause more permanent damage to the galaxy than they did.

Implying that other warzones in the galaxy weren't also centred around other small casts of characters? The third Armageddon War only really featured Ghazghkull, Helbretch (and other Black Templars by proxy), Yarrick, Tu'Shan, and other token Imperial leaders.
The Battle of Macragge only featured Ultramarines, the Swarmlord and Old One Eye.
The Battle of Ichar IV was Calgar, Prince Yriel, and the Swarmlord.

Remind me, how was 40k's lore ever anything other than important events around a select cast? The only difference now is that the consequences of the select cast are larger, which I think is better, as it leads to actual progress and narrative developments.

Even beforehand, whatever Marneus Calgar did had no bearing on what Captain Genericus did. Your Dude, Captain Genericus, can still do what he wants in the Sector Genericus, and while what he does might be irrelevant compared to whatever Dante or Abaddon is doing, it's relevant to Your Dudes. Who cares what's going on elsewhere? If you care that much about Your Dudes, it won't matter.

The Cicatrix opening up was a deliberate action, one powered by a continual stretching of the material plane by Abaddon's Balck Crusades. The Eldar oped the Eye by accident. Abaddon forced it wider by force. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.
The Old Ones weren't trying to rupture space open. Their War in Heaven was relegated almost solely in the Webway and material plane. Chaos are actively trying to rip space open. Hardly the same.

It's all just so badly written - all of 8 ed fluff is so baaaad, its like a bad superhero event comic or a saturday morning cartoon - one where "biggest baddest things evar appears out of nowhere, and is then defeated without a hitch" Ever read the DC crossover "Culling"?

Implying that the constant stalemate and "GUYS IT'S 10 SECONDS TO MIDNIGHT OMG WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN" for over a decade was better?

You can complain about the execution of it all you like. I'm still undecided if I like the execution. What I'm saying is that moving the setting forward and creating actual story events is far better, almost entirely irrespective of execution, than what we had before.

The comic book situation you describe now was far worse pre-8th than now.

When everything the Biggest. Thing. Ever. it all cease to mean anything, the immersion is broken and the thing becomes a game of escalation ad nauseum. " My Superman fires biggerer lazers than you Superman" "Oh Yeah! Well, MY Superman can timetravel with a though" "Well, so does MY Superman, and he can think faster than yours" Yuk.

But that's not what's happening? Things are happening organically, with a reason as to why and how they're occurring. Your point would be valid if things had no reasons for why they happened, but that's not what's happening.

If some random guy suddenly became a Primarch, that would be what you mean.
If the galaxy split open randomly with no cause, that would be what you mean.
If the Tau suddenly appeared on the other side of the galaxy, that would be what you mean.

However, there are REASONS and ACTIONS that dictate how we got here. Rational, narrative reasons. Honestly, your disregard for them makes it sound like you don't actually care about narratives at all.

Endless Superman+1s are bad because they react on a meta level, and are not dictated by the actual narrative. Current 40k is not that.

People who celebrate the "40k finally has a story" seem to be the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own - so they just want to see the existing background people become storys characters. Almost as horrible as crossover fanfics.

That's not a generalization, is it?

I'd like to point out that I've used the developing plot and story in 40k to develop my own homebrew "Your Dudes". My Ultramarines Acting-Captain homebrew, since Guilliman came back, and the Primaris Marines were introduced, has been selected by Guilliman to lead these Primaris Marines and secure a region of space lost in the Plague Wars, and in doing so, redeem himself for a catastrophic failure in a previous campaign.

Aside from my "Your Dudes" Chapter, I'm also keen on creating unique regiments of guardsmen (from plate armoured laslock knights to Swiss-inspired mountain siege infantry, to drop pod using light infantry and nomadic tribe tank regiments), my own Knight House (with narrative ties to both my 30k and 40k armies), and even a renegade Tau force comprised of a high number of Gue'vesa and CQC-loving Tau.

But yeah, because I like the new story, I'm "the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own".
I can still make my stories, campaigns and narratives because nothing about these new stories stops me at all. What's stopping you?

Of and now Blood Angels can't fight Tau.

Wrong. 4th and 5th Spheres of Expansion allow for Tau to be nearly anywhere.
Funnily enough, it was more unlikely for Blood Angels to fight Tau pre-8th than currently. Great point.

And they no longer have to wrestle with Black Rage and Red Thirst since a Primarisification solves such problems. Scythes of the Emperor, Flesh Teares and Lamenter are no longer at the brink of extinction since they too got their share of that Primaris goodness, there goes that tension.

Weren't a bunch of Chapters killed off at the Devastation of Baal? Didn't the Lamenters infamously not show up to the battle, indicating some terrible fate befell them? What's stopping you making up your stories about them?

And sure, Cawl says there's no problems with the Primaris. Just like how he also says he didn't use traitor geneseed: oh hi there, Sons of the Phoenix, with your purple, gold and white scheme! Such paragons of Rogal Dorn, aren't you! /s

If you don't think that the new developments in the story have any tension, mystery or depth to them, then honestly, you ain't looking hard enough.

Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

That's been the lore for years. Long before Draigo giving Morty open heart surgery.

I believe it's also drawn from lots of real world myths or wider fantasy myths.

Oh, if only I shared your optimism - but I don't, the currect route the fluff takes won't lead to great stuff. Possibility existed for interesting things, but all was wasted. Primarch returned, better marines got created, galaxy got split in two - all of it wasted, the tension built either forgotten or brushed off with a timeskip - a hundred years and nothing of interest apparently happened.

Everything not Chaos or Imperiums is being relegated to npc status. Humans and Chaos are all that matters now in the story of 40k and rest is chaff, graciously allowed to hang about and provide the occasional help or hinderance. Mark my words, as more Primarchs are added to 40k, more it becomes centered around them.

Its understandable that GW want it to be this way - they got burned so hard on Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror global campaings which failed spectacularly. Now it's just GW pulling the shots since that way they don't need to worry about us pesky players affecting things in the universe. Like that horribly rairoaded Fate of Konor campaing.

Eye of Terror campaing book was by the by great, adding in cool armies, since back in those days GW wasn't as strict with it's "No model No Rules" policy and would release rules for cool stuff that had to be modded, like rules for feral orks, kroot mercenaries, various abhumans and animals. Oh, how those old WDs were cool.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

except it's not 40k lore the concept of true names is an ancient one, dating back to antiquity.
In egyptian mythology, for example, Isis managed to gain the true name of the God Ra through an elbaorate trick and used the complete control over him it gained to force him to put her son Horus on the Throne.

The new fluff the game has with the rift, I happen to like. It’s given “my dudes” some cool new things to deal with but I still avoid the bigger storylines. I view them as they would be on the planet my game is set on. A distant and far off event with little or no impact on them. The HH was just an mythical age.

I still like the stories about smaller less significant events and people, they tend to be better written as I think the authors have more freedom as they aren’t pushing a marketing idea. Recently read “imperator”. That did a great job of showing off life on a Titan, interactions between classes of people within the ad mech. How the ad mech functions and how “typical” people of types we see in games function. I don’t get that from the HH series or others covering the big events.

pm713 wrote:
I thought it was just 7 Companies of 120 men each, First Captain is Chapter Master plus support peeps.

Nope. If you read the codexes through the years the information is always contradictory.

7 companies, that are tied to the 7 cities of Prometheus, oh and the 1st company on the moon.

Wait so is it 8 companies?

It's never clear.

I'm kind of surprised how many people aren't familiar with "true names". They're a pretty common trope in witchcraft stories.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Ork technology working because all Orks are psykers. It was a hypothesis from a Techpriest who couldn't figure out how Ork technology worked. It was never represented as actual fact.

I'm all for Orks using Waaagh energy to bend the laws of physics. But when I keep getting people telling me they should be able to make all my Ork technology fail by making deny the witch rolls I want to slap them across the head.

Orks work better as instinctual creatures that know how their technology works without consciously thinking about it.

This is a very nit picky problem I have with Orks, but honestly its the only thing I hate about Ork lore.

I do kind of hate the super psyker thing. I'd rather it be the kind of logical failing where the red ones are faster because they paint faster things red and in turn assume that painting things red makes them faster. The reality warping belief stuff is taking them too serious.

Generally speaking, I think 40k fluff is superficially fun, but kind gets stupid when people try to rationalize the logistics. Whenever someone starts attaching numbers to things I go into a pretty heavy eyeroll. I like the setting at its core, emotional appeal, but it doesn't hold up for me when people try to treat it as more than a cool canvas for a game about gratuitous ultra violence.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Oh, if only I shared your optimism - but I don't, the currect route the fluff takes won't lead to great stuff. Possibility existed for interesting things, but all was wasted. Primarch returned, better marines got created, galaxy got split in two - all of it wasted, the tension built either forgotten or brushed off with a timeskip - a hundred years and nothing of interest apparently happened.

How did it remove tension? It added more tension and narrative drive to the story overall, not removed it.

Sure, the tension over "is Guilliman going to come back" is gone. That's be replaced with (and in my opinion, for the better) "how will Guilliman hold the Imperium together? What if someone else threatens his control? How will be finally resolve the influence of the Ecclesiarchy? How will Calgar, and other leaders he pushes out of the way, deal with this in the future?"

Then your other point - you first complain about "omg they tell too much story it should be a setting and we shouldn't need to have everything reduced", and then you complain "they didn't tell us what happened in these 100 years, it's all wasted".
They left the 100 years blank if they want to add anything, or, as you seem so concerned about,for YOUR dudes to do something in that time.

There's provision in all the new material for your dudes. Some tension was lost, but more was gained. That's an improvement, in my eyes.

Everything not Chaos or Imperiums is being relegated to npc status. Humans and Chaos are all that matters now in the story of 40k and rest is chaff, graciously allowed to hang about and provide the occasional help or hinderance. Mark my words, as more Primarchs are added to 40k, more it becomes centered around them.

Sorry to break it to you, but 40k has always been human centric. And Chaos, by virtue of their intimate connection with humanity (with most of their mortal armies BEING human) are naturally the main opponent to that. But that shouldn't come as a surprise, because 40k has ALWAYS been like that. Sure, we've had xenos codexes say "oh yeah, we could totally wipe out the whole galaxy", but none have ever been as pervasively opposed to humanity as Chaos have.

That doesn't mean everyone else is an NPC though. Think of this as ASOIAF. Fundamentally, we have two main conflicts - the fight for the Iron Throne, and winter coming. Does that mean that the Iron Islands plot and story were "just NPC" stories? No, because they add to the setting as a whole. Fundamentally, the 40k setting is humanity fighting against the encroaching darkness, that darkness primarily being the threat of Chaos. However, the Eldar have their part to play, the Tyranids add their flavour to the setting, the Tau show us potentials and a light reflection of what the Imperium *could* have been, but at it's utter core, 40k is about humans and their place in the galaxy.

Its understandable that GW want it to be this way - they got burned so hard on Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror global campaings which failed spectacularly. Now it's just GW pulling the shots since that way they don't need to worry about us pesky players affecting things in the universe. Like that horribly rairoaded Fate of Konor campaing.

How was it railroaded? Unless, because the IoM won, you just say it was railroaded.

Again, the problems they had were that those campaigns had stakes that were too large. If Chaos took Cadia, able to control access to and from the Eye of Terror - well, we saw what happened. In their position at the time, GW did not advance the setting, presumably because they hadn't set up a storyboard for the wider universe, and the events of Cadia would alter the entire universe in it's wake. It's why I believe they Konor campaign was on a far smaller scale. Instead of a critical world that would have lasting, galaxy spanning consequences, they chose an important world, but one which didn't have such far reaching implications.

Besides, I got the opinion that you didn't like galaxy-spanning incidents? Konor was perfect in this regard - a small, self-contained story, with no massively lasting consequences in the grand scheme of things.

Eye of Terror campaing book was by the by great, adding in cool armies, since back in those days GW wasn't as strict with it's "No model No Rules" policy and would release rules for cool stuff that had to be modded, like rules for feral orks, kroot mercenaries, various abhumans and animals. Oh, how those old WDs were cool.

Most of what you described there isn't about the setting or lore. That's about the game. And since then, there's been a larger influx of 3rd party groups which GW sees/saw as a threat: Chapterhouse being the main one. Now, this isn't the place for that discussion, but it hasn't got much to do with the setting anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.

Of all the things GW could have added to the game the primaris marines are the most dull and boring options and this is coming from a marine player. Fluff wise super marines with no flaws, no faults and the imperium suddenly being cool with progress and change is annoying. To me the main appeal for 40k was the good times have came and gone and humanity is slowly but surely losing the good fight.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.

Which would you prefer, the Centurion approach ("they were there the whole time!") or the Primaris approach that actually has a story with potential narrative hooks with it?

Dunno about you, but I prefer the Primaris approach.

As for the Sisters, they *did* pop up for a spell during the War of the Beast, I believe, but I think the argument as to why they've been hiding out is because they weren't called upon to act by a high Imperial authority - like what happened with the Custodes.

Unless you'll only be satisfied with "yeah, we didn't make models for them, and we repurposed our 30k stock to introduce this 40k army in 40k", in which case, why are you in the lore section?

Once all the Primarchs are introduced they will be at the center of everything. Since Horus Heresy has been such a success the Primarchs have become too well known and too media sexy to ever suffer anything anymore. Once back in the setting they will hogg all the attention.

The story won't progress, it won't go forward - Primarchs come back and then they'll be the new stagnant status quo. Except now the whole setting is reduced to a single storyline that revolves around them beating their each other up again, and again, and again... and again.

Don't you see - Nothing will change, the setting will never really progress anywhere. The old stagnant atleast had an illusion that some of the threats could overcome the humans, in a nebulous "eventually" - that Tyranids will "eventually" swarm across the galaxy, devouring all life in it, or Necrons will "eventually" take over the galaxy - now, such thing will never happen, the illusion is broken. All that remains is Primarchs, killing chaff and fighting their each other in endless repetition.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Once all the Primarchs are introduced they will be at the center of everything. Since Horus Heresy has been such a success the Primarchs have become too well known and too media sexy to ever suffer anything anymore. Once back in the setting they will hogg all the attention.

If. If all the Primarchs return. And if they do, I still doubt it'll be all about them. In 30k, it's that way because the xenos presence in the game itself is limited. In 40k, because of lots of xenos factions, they can't risk not appeasing them too.

And frankly, if they did bring them back(barring the ones who are dead, don't want them coming back), is that a bad thing? They're some of the more developed characters in 40k, with plenty of narrative connections and relationships they can use, they make for popular models and therefore good revenue.
Furthermore, they're not stopping you making your own stories. Hell, even in 30k, the fact that no Primarchs were dead still doesn't stop me having my own stories and "Your Dudes". Just because GW want to make stories about some of the more developed and interesting characters in their setting doesn't stop me from making stories of my dudes.

Seriously, just because GW focus on something doesn't mean you have to.

The story won't progress, it won't go forward - Primarchs come back and then they'll be the new stagnant status quo. Except now the whole setting is reduced to a single storyline that revolves around them beating their each other up again, and again, and again... and again.

And your proof being?
Since Primarchs came back, we've seen more story progression than every before.

And funny you should say about "reduced to a single storyline" - implying that it wasn't like that before the Gathering Storm? I mean, sure, we had several battlefields and notable planets, but everything seemed to draw into them. And yet, as you and I prove, we could have "Your Dudes" in that setting. So what would stop you from doing the same later?

If you want Your Dudes, have them. Who cares if GW only tell stories about the Primarchs? Your Dudes could be fighting for them, or they could do their own thing. Imagination, forging narratives and all that.

Don't you see - Nothing will change, the setting will never really progress anywhere. The old stagnant atleast had an illusion that some of the threats could overcome the humans, in a nebulous "eventually" - that Tyranids will "eventually" swarm across the galaxy, devouring all life in it, or Necrons will "eventually" take over the galaxy - now, such thing will never happen, the illusion is broken. All that remains is Primarchs, killing chaff and fighting their each other in endless repetition.

Again, implying that it wasn't stagnant before, and everything happened in "endless repetition"?

There's still the illusion things will end badly for humanity - Orks are getting bigger and more united, Tyranids are pushing further and further in, more Necron tombs are awakening, the Ynnari are coming closer to killing Slaanesh, and Chaos have split the galaxy in half. But yeah, some taller Space Marines and a single Primarch coming back mean the Imperium is saved! /s

I don't understand your argument. First you complain that GW advance the story too much, and railroad "Your Dudes" (which is false). Then you complain that the setting won't change, and everything will just remain stagnant (which is exactly what we had before, and also a false assumption). Considering the contradiction, it just sounds like you want to complain about the fact that things changed for the sake of complaining.

I'll say it again: whatever GW decide to tell in their story, the setting is still open to you. You can have Your Dudes be pre-Gathering Storm, mid-Indomitus Crusade, current timeline, or even during the War of the Beast/Beheading. GW cannot stop that. What's stopping you?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.

Which would you prefer, the Centurion approach ("they were there the whole time!") or the Primaris approach that actually has a story with potential narrative hooks with it?

Dunno about you, but I prefer the Primaris approach.

As for the Sisters, they *did* pop up for a spell during the War of the Beast, I believe, but I think the argument as to why they've been hiding out is because they weren't called upon to act by a high Imperial authority - like what happened with the Custodes.

Unless you'll only be satisfied with "yeah, we didn't make models for them, and we repurposed our 30k stock to introduce this 40k army in 40k", in which case, why are you in the lore section?

It doesn't have any hooks because they just appeared as better than everyone. They were effectively the same as Centurions.

If they'd been a tech priest finding an STC or something that enabled a new kind of armour I'd agree because thats better than Primaris.

The Beast War was thousands of years ago so Sisters have just been chilling doing nothing by themselves?

Honestly, I'd rather that honesty from GW. But that won't happen so I'd take the idea that the Sisters are the result of new experiments, Custodes are out to keep an eye on Roboute and Cawl and rather than have 100% guaranteed loyal Roboute have a more important split between the Imperiums sides. If they insist of abandoning the idea of a setting they can at least put a decent effort into it.

pm713 wrote:
It doesn't have any hooks because they just appeared as better than everyone. They were effectively the same as Centurions.

So what about the narratives of integrating the new Primaris Marines, many of whom were around during the time of the Great Crusade?
The narratives of the old Marines and their place in the changing world?
The possibility of Cawl being wrong about the Primaris being "perfect"?

Plenty of room there.

If they'd been a tech priest finding an STC or something that enabled a new kind of armour I'd agree because thats better than Primaris.

Maybe so. But I think having Primaris is better than nothing changing at all.

The Beast War was thousands of years ago so Sisters have just been chilling doing nothing by themselves?

Yup. Or, if you take initiative, maybe Your Dudes found a group of Sisters of Silence before Guilliman roused all of them to action, and they fought together? Or Your Dudes of Sisters of Silence were out there doing things in the meantime.
Just because GW didn't say that's what they did doesn't mean you can't have Your Dudes do it.

You don't need permission from GW to have your characters do things. If they go against the hard limits of the setting, or affect named characters irrevocably, then that could be an issue, but a team of Sisters of Silence out there doing something? Sure, go ahead.

Honestly, I'd rather that honesty from GW. But that won't happen so I'd take the idea that the Sisters are the result of new experiments, Custodes are out to keep an eye on Roboute and Cawl and rather than have 100% guaranteed loyal Roboute have a more important split between the Imperiums sides. If they insist of abandoning the idea of a setting they can at least put a decent effort into it.

Sure, you can believe what you want to. But I personally think that, at least with Guilliman having 100% (well, slightly less than 100%, but hyperbole) loyalty, it makes sense.

They've not abandoned the setting. They've moved on the stagnant mess it was, and introduced some dynamic motion to it. If you don't like that, you can have all your stuff set before then. If you don't like it, ignore it, and play your games in 999999.M41.

The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.

Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(

pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority

Hear me . named characters in nonnarrative games is and the model for Girlymahn is

pm713 wrote:
The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.

I'll agree that, to avoid story stagnancy, setting more campaigns and stories in the years between the Heresy and the Gathering Storm would have been a good idea.

However, that was only a potential option, and I have nothing against moving the setting and story forward beyond the previous stagnant limits. Of course, you do seem to, and I doubt we will agree on that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.

I'll agree that, to avoid story stagnancy, setting more campaigns and stories in the years between the Heresy and the Gathering Storm would have been a good idea.

However, that was only a potential option, and I have nothing against moving the setting and story forward beyond the previous stagnant limits. Of course, you do seem to, and I doubt we will agree on that.

Without disagreeing about things there'd never anything to discuss.

But there always going to be that bit of me thinking "instead of all this Gathering Storm stuff we could have had Cardinal Bucharis".

I do have to agree that Gathering and its follow up was a logical - but still too extreme, in my opinion - way to go forward.

Sadly making campaings and stories like Beast Rising tend to hit a snag with GWs modern policy of only making fluff to support models - for example, atleast according to a rumor, the intended ending with Men of Iron had to be cut from Beast Rising, since they don't have models. I doubt modern Gw is willing to make Eye of Terror type campaings full of armylist and units that need to be converted and proxied - let alone making models of limited use for, say, soldiers of Nova Terra for a supplement set during Nova Terra Interregnum.

That seems like a poor policy to me. For example for a Nova Terra campaign you could use Guard models or just live with things being in stories without models. It doesn't all have to be about models.

For Gw it is

BrianDavion wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

except it's not 40k lore the concept of true names is an ancient one, dating back to antiquity.
In egyptian mythology, for example, Isis managed to gain the true name of the God Ra through an elbaorate trick and used the complete control over him it gained to force him to put her son Horus on the Throne.

Yes, it IS part of the 40k lore. As has been pointed out, it was relevant in a couple of recent stories. If you are saying that anything that was inspired by real life or prior fiction doesn't count as part of the lore, than nothing is 40k lore.

 jeff white wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.

Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(

pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority

Hear me . named characters in nonnarrative games is and the model for Girlymahn is

Oh look the anti-named character person. Lemme guess: everything has been bad after 3rd edition?

Also Roboute's model really isn't bad outside maybe the face, but I hate bare faces so helmets every time for me.

Problem with a historical focus can be summed up in one word. Xenos. Aside from the Eldar, and the Orks, most Xenos races are reasonably new to the scene.

Tyranids, first recorded contact? M 41 754
Tau: We know the first major military confrontation was the Damocles crusade of 742 M41. even if we're generous and assume they'd been on the scene for over a century before that it's still second half of M41.
Necrons: The first open conflict was Sanctuary 101. in 897 M 41


so a lotta the Xenos races are restricted to the second half of M41 which would be a snag if you wanted to do historical based supplements, eneugh of one that if I was running GW I'd be a bit concerned. That said, I would like to see some sourcebooks for historic battles. I'd LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE a "1st war for armageddon" book, and IMHO I'd be a perfect way to give Grey Knights some love, AND finally stat out Angron.

Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.

Andykp wrote:
Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.

Most special characters aren't even that good. Never got the irrational hate that they inspire.

pm713 wrote:But there always going to be that bit of me thinking "instead of all this Gathering Storm stuff we could have had Cardinal Bucharis".

That could have been cool, but the issue I felt was that 999.M41 felt too saturated - like pressure building up in a valve. Filling stuff up behind the valve wouldn't have prevented the build-up of lore at 999.M41. Gathering Storm gave enough breathing room to flesh out and add more to the "current" timeline.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:I do have to agree that Gathering and its follow up was a logical - but still too extreme, in my opinion - way to go forward.

That's fair enough. It was logical, and I think it was okay, but if you disagree, you're allowed that opinion.

Sadly making campaings and stories like Beast Rising tend to hit a snag with GWs modern policy of only making fluff to support models - for example, atleast according to a rumor, the intended ending with Men of Iron had to be cut from Beast Rising, since they don't have models. I doubt modern Gw is willing to make Eye of Terror type campaings full of armylist and units that need to be converted and proxied - let alone making models of limited use for, say, soldiers of Nova Terra for a supplement set during Nova Terra Interregnum.

And how would the models/units from 40k look any different than the ones in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

As we know, by the Scouring, Mark 7 Aquila armour was in circulation, guardsmen can already be in a massive variety of uniforms and aesthetic, so that's no difference. I doubt any other faction changed aesthetic sufficiently, so it probably isn't the models completely affecting things. I won't deny that Beast Rising was like that, but considering that GW hadn't really done any Eye of Terror things for quite a while in 5th-7th (and then did a similar one for the Fate of Konor), I don't think it's a nu-GW problem.

Why do you need to wait for GW to make a campaign? There's enough room in the setting to forge your own.

Andykp wrote:Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.

Why not? If you're taking an Ultramarines battle company, and you're taking a Captain, you have a 1 in 10 chance of that captain being Sicarius. In fact, it's closer to 1 in 4, because the Captains of the 1st and 10th Companies only really deploy with their respective companies (which don't form battle companies), and the reserve companies are less often deployed, so your main options are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies. Therefore, in an Ultramarines Battle Company, you have a 25% chance that it would be Sicarius who is commanding it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And how would the models/units from 40k look any different than the ones in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

As we know, by the Scouring, Mark 7 Aquila armour was in circulation, guardsmen can already be in a massive variety of uniforms and aesthetic, so that's no difference. I doubt any other faction changed aesthetic sufficiently, so it probably isn't the models completely affecting things. I won't deny that Beast Rising was like that, but considering that GW hadn't really done any Eye of Terror things for quite a while in 5th-7th (and then did a similar one for the Fate of Konor), I don't think it's a nu-GW problem.

Why do you need to wait for GW to make a campaign? There's enough room in the setting to forge your own.

Point is not that fans couldn't do what they want on their own - It's that GW is wasting a perfectly good material - instead they are pulling changes that, at first, seem titanic, like splitting the whole galaxy apart, which in the end still won't affect the all mighty status quo making them pointless if the point of the story was to change the setting.

If the setting had to become a advancing storyline, it should have happened slowly and carefully, over both a long in-universe, and a real life time, as in real life large changes happen often happen too slowly for average joe to even notice - I mean, no one woke up one day in 14th centuary and was like "Oh, the Renaissance arrived" . Now, now we're stuck with a hurried story, in which no matter what happens, nothing will change - especially when the Primarchs are concerned, since with the success of HH they have become too media sexy for anything to happen to them - whereas the likes of Aun'va and Tycho could be killed off, as they were, it is not so with the Primarchs since the only thing that can provide a challenge for them besides their each other, is some BigBad on a level of Primorks, who will end up getting killed with MacGuffins, as Primeorks did.

It so sad to see the potential wasted only so GW gets a chance to pull some fast fancy sounding media stunts like "The Primarchs Return" which are eye-catching but soddily executed and full of hot air. Its mediocre and lazy and should be criticised as such.