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Martel732 wrote:
Matt Ward is reasonable compared to Phil Kelly.

Ward had good internal balance (not perfect, but it was good) while external balance was kind of all over the place. Meanwhile Kelly was great for fluffy and interesting rules, but the power level was schizophrenic at best and the bookkeeping was a nightmare at times.

Basically both of them had pros and cons. I like the current rules team because they've done a reasonable job at balancing fluff and lore, but of course more fine tuning is needed. Especially as new codex updates come out and shift the meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Matt Ward is reasonable compared to Phil Kelly.

I'm not overly familiar with much of the writers. But I heard that Matt ward actually had good balance when it was 2 of his codexes against each other. But that's just hear say for the most part

Now to see what this Phil Kelly guy writes...

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Matt Ward is reasonable compared to Phil Kelly.

I'm not overly familiar with much of the writers. But I heard that Matt ward actually had good balance when it was 2 of his codexes against each other. But that's just hear say for the most part

Now to see what this Phil Kelly guy writes...

He wrote the previous Chaos Marine and Craftworld Eldar codexes.

And 5th ed Space Wolves IIRC.

Oh that bag of flaming poo.

Both are better than Cruddace and the 7 years of hell he inflected on the Tyranid players.

 p5freak wrote:

Tyran wrote:

I wouldn't say that Genestealers need a nerf. Sure they pack a punch but they are still fragile and could easily become useless. Maybe a rework so they trade their offensive for some defense?

This is already possible. You can give them extended carapaces for 2 pts. per model. They get a 4+ save, but lose their ability to advance and charge. A broodlord can cast catalyst on them, this gives the entire unit a 5+ FNP.

It is not optimal, because paying 14 (and losing advance and charge) points for a T4 4+ model is not worth it. Sure we can increase improve it with catalyst, but that's has it's own limitations.

How can a unit with a threat range of ~25-30" become useless ??

I wonder how you are getting the threat range 25-30".

8" movement + D6 advance + 2D6 charge = 18.5" in average.

Sure with Kraken stratagem (8" movement + 2 x best of 3D6 advance + 2D6 charge) we get 25" average, but that's with a stratagem. Nerfing a unit to needing a sub-faction exclusive stratagem to work is just bad design.

And that's of course ignoring that there is stuff like bubble wrapping that pretty much counters Genestealers as they cannot move over enemy units.

Tyran wrote:
Both are better than Cruddace and the 7 years of hell he inflected on the Tyranid players.

 p5freak wrote:

Tyran wrote:

I wouldn't say that Genestealers need a nerf. Sure they pack a punch but they are still fragile and could easily become useless. Maybe a rework so they trade their offensive for some defense?

This is already possible. You can give them extended carapaces for 2 pts. per model. They get a 4+ save, but lose their ability to advance and charge. A broodlord can cast catalyst on them, this gives the entire unit a 5+ FNP.

It is not optimal, because paying 14 (and losing advance and charge) points for a T4 4+ model is not worth it. Sure we can increase improve it with catalyst, but that's has it's own limitations.

How can a unit with a threat range of ~25-30" become useless ??

I wonder how you are getting the threat range 25-30".

8" movement + D6 advance + 2D6 charge = 18.5" in average.

Sure with Kraken stratagem (8" movement + 2 x best of 3D6 advance + 2D6 charge) we get 25" average, but that's with a stratagem. Nerfing a unit to needing a sub-faction exclusive stratagem to work is just bad design.

And that's of course ignoring that there is stuff like bubble wrapping that pretty much counters Genestealers as they cannot move over enemy units.

I believe the swarmlord gives them something like moving again or something similar. I'm no tyranid player though

The Swarmlord is a 14 wound T7 model with a 4++ that costs 300 freaking points. If you see him on the table count yourself lucky your opponent decided to effectively waste 15% of his list for an obvious gimmick that still won't get you passed any screens lol

For reference i love the Swarmlord. Mine is fully painted and based, just waiting for a price drop to hit the tables.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Swarmlord is a 14 wound T7 model with a 4++ that costs 300 freaking points. If you see him on the table count yourself lucky your opponent decided to effectively waste 15% of his list for an obvious gimmick that still won't get you passed any screens lol

For reference i love the Swarmlord. Mine is fully painted and based, just waiting for a price drop to hit the tables.

Sounds like the Wraith Knight

Tyran wrote:

I wonder how you are getting the threat range 25-30".

8" movement + D6 advance + 2D6 charge = 18.5" in average.

Sure with Kraken stratagem (8" movement + 2 x best of 3D6 advance + 2D6 charge) we get 25" average, but that's with a stratagem. Nerfing a unit to needing a sub-faction exclusive stratagem to work is just bad design.

If you roll 3D6 chances are pretty good you will end up with a 4 or 5 as the highest result. You can reroll one dice in the movement phase. In the charge phase you can also also reroll one dice. Getting at least 25" is easy.

Tyran wrote:

And that's of course ignoring that there is stuff like bubble wrapping that pretty much counters Genestealers as they cannot move over enemy units.

What bubble ? Genestealers are so cheap that the nid player can easily have 2*20 or even 3*20 models. The first 20 remove the bubble, the second 20 run around them, and attack whatever was bubbled. Or the nid player spends 2 CP to let the first 20 models fight again. Nid players usually have 10+ CP.

A squad of 20 Genestealers is 240 points base. Is it really worth it to throw 240 points away on a 40 point screen? Let's say you kill 2 screens. That's 80 points. You've just spent 240 points to clear 80 points, in a pretty optimal scenario, since the Genestealers are dead next turn. If 240 points is cheap to you, i'm curious what faction you're playing.

Secondly, it costs 3CP to fight again, and you must be within 1" of something. Meaning, the squad didn't clear their target. Unlikely since we're fighting screens. For Nid players to usually have 10+ cp means they're running a brigade. Saying "most Nid players run a brigade" is not even close to accurate.

Finally, if you're running 3 squads of genestealers, that's 720 points of models that die horribly to alpha, because you've spent a huge chunk of your list on things that actually require screening. And you have no answer to Fire Raptors or other flyers.

Anyone who tells you first turn charges are a real strategy for Tyranids simply doesn't play the army. And if people are doing this to you, just deploy further back, if you're insisting on not running the 8e mandatory screens. You can literally deny this tactic by being aware that it exists. Even in the most unfavorable board layout, you can negate this strategy by deploying further back. I mean seriously.

Every faction - Imperium, Chaos, Xenos - all have a great answer to massed Genestealers, without even going outside the meta.

 p5freak wrote:

If you roll 3D6 chances are pretty good you will end up with a 4 or 5 as the highest result. You can reroll one dice in the movement phase. In the charge phase you can also also reroll one dice. Getting at least 25" is easy.

And wasting 3 CP in the process, in one unit.

What bubble ? Genestealers are so cheap that the nid player can easily have 2*20 or even 3*20 models. The first 20 remove the bubble, the second 20 run around them, and attack whatever was bubbled. Or the nid player spends 2 CP to let the first 20 models fight again. Nid players usually have 10+ CP.

They are slightly cheaper than Space Marines, that's not cheap for infantry.
And that's not how the Charge and Fight phases work, and that's another 3CP. 6CP used on a 240 pt unit is quite an investment and more than half of the CP pool of most Tyranid lists.

What I expect:

1. Smite nerf (beta rules - though I believe there may be an exception for GK given how it would affect them more than most)
2. Character targeting (beta rules)
3. Fireraptor update (+points likely)
4. Stratagem update (possibly restricted to the faction's detachment, but who knows)
5. Possible +points for Morty
6. Other Q&A that have been brought up

Other than that, not sure.

I hope they restrict souping. It shouldn't be infeasible, but there should at least be some kind of trade off here.

 Marmatag wrote:
A squad of 20 Genestealers is 240 points base. Is it really worth it to throw 240 points away on a 40 point screen?

How does a space marine player get a 40 point screen ? That screen is two models, a unit of two models company veterans are 32

 Marmatag wrote:

Let's say you kill 2 screens. That's 80 points. You've just spent 240 points to clear 80 points, in a pretty optimal scenario, since the Genestealers are dead next turn. If 240 points is cheap to you, i'm curious what faction you're playing.

240 is very cheap for 80 attacks with S4 AP-1, 20 of them at AP-3, for free. Every wound roll of 6 is AP-4. BA DC cant advance and charge, they have no AP weapons for free, they have no invuln sv, they cant race 25" across the battlefield every turn. To get 80 attacks i need 20 DC models, which are 400 pts with JP.

 Marmatag wrote:

Secondly, it costs 3CP to fight again, and you must be within 1" of something. Meaning, the squad didn't clear their target. Unlikely since we're fighting screens. For Nid players to usually have 10+ cp means they're running a brigade. Saying "most Nid players run a brigade" is not even close to accurate.

You're right, its 2 CP to shoot again. Getting two battalions at 1,5k is no problem. Thats 9 CP. As a SM player i can only dream of 9 CP at 1,5k.

 Marmatag wrote:

Finally, if you're running 3 squads of genestealers, that's 720 points of models that die horribly to alpha, because you've spent a huge chunk of your list on things that actually require screening. And you have no answer to Fire Raptors or other flyers.

Ever heard of infestation nodes ? Or deepstriking with a trygon ?

 Marmatag wrote:

Anyone who tells you first turn charges are a real strategy for Tyranids simply doesn't play the army. And if people are doing this to you, just deploy further back, if you're insisting on not running the 8e mandatory screens. You can literally deny this tactic by being aware that it exists. Even in the most unfavorable board layout, you can negate this strategy by deploying further back. I mean seriously.

Right. Tyranids have no way of deepstriking with a trygon and another unit, or flyrants, and charge with +1, reroll for free, with their hive fleet ability, if necessary.

 Marmatag wrote:
I hope they restrict souping. It shouldn't be infeasible, but there should at least be some kind of trade off here.

This. The problem isn't with one codex, it's when you soup several together that it borders on the edge. Not sure how you would do this though without going the other way and make it pointless to do.

How does a space marine player get a 40 point screen ? That screen is two models, a unit of two models company veterans are 32

Scouts are 55 points and provide a good bubble against deep strike. You can however add IG into the mix which should give you a lot of screening units.

240 is very cheap for 80 attacks with S4 AP-1, 20 of them at AP-3, for free. Every wound roll of 6 is AP-4. BA DC cant advance and charge, they have no AP weapons for free, they have no invuln sv, they cant race 25" across the battlefield every turn. To get 80 attacks i need 20 DC models, which are 400 pts with JP.

You do the mistake of thinking that all units exist within a bubble when in fact they exist within an army. BA DC might not have some of the things you mentioned, but they have an army of options that synergizes with them. BA DC also has access to ranged weapons, jumppacks, and a host of different weaponry. I mean, if you want to look at this in the most narrow way possible then yes Genestealers are stronger, but that's only if you want to willfully ignore other aspects of Blood Angels as well as Death Company.

Your army is a bit more than a single unit. Unless you are playing at 250 point level.

You're right, its 2 CP to shoot again. Getting two battalions at 1,5k is no problem. Thats 9 CP. As a SM player i can only dream of 9 CP at 1,5k.

Sure, getting 9 CP is easy, but the question is what you sacrifice as you aim for CP instead of unit/army synergy. Technically you can get 9 CP as a SM player but the army won't have much to do on the battlefield. By your very definition it is easy for an SM player to get 9 CP.

Ever heard of infestation nodes ? Or deepstriking with a trygon ?

Infestation Nodes are not deep striking like you think deep striking works. Also, a Trygon is an expensive beast. If I commit a unit of 240 genestealers and a Trygon it should be doing some damage since it is dedicating 1/3rd of the army for a one trick pony. My trygon has yet to survive a whole turn after deep striking as it is shot into oblivion. Personally I've found devilgaunts with Trygon a bit more effective with a Trygon deep strike, especially if I use the shoot again stratagem.

Right. Tyranids have no way of deepstriking with a trygon and another unit, or flyrants, and charge with +1, reroll for free, with their hive fleet ability, if necessary.

You sound like you are arguing that a 5 man BA DC should be beating 240 points of Genestealers, a Flyrant, and a Trygon like the heroes of legend they are. All of these things are synergy which cost a lot of points. You as a BA player have units within your army that have the same job of providing synergy unless you are willfully ignoring the rest of your codex.

I played against Tyranids last weekend in a tournament. The guy brought Genestealers, a broodlord who was slamming catalyst, and enough chaff to distract me. I still won with a simple force of Noise Marines, Chaos Rhinos, and cultists. I have also played Genestealer hordes and it's a bit harder to get those genestealers where you want them even when I am running Kraken fleets. The reason - and this one trick might surprise you - but the tyranid player's opponent gets to deploy their units as they wish and in a way attempt to minimize the genestealer bum rush effectiveness.

Wait.. what?

There are Death Guard models in power armour that are lower than t5????!?!!!!??!!!!one!!!

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait.. what?

There are Death Guard models in power armour that are lower than t5????!?!!!!??!!!!one!!!

And without DR. Basically any unit that is in the vanilla CSM codex that was ported across is exactly the same. Linking DR and T5 to the Death Guard Keyword would have fixed this though.. but meh. Hopefully one day they will fix it.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait.. what?

There are Death Guard models in power armour that are lower than t5????!?!!!!??!!!!one!!!

And without DR. Basically any unit that is in the vanilla CSM codex that was ported across is exactly the same. Linking DR and T5 to the Death Guard Keyword would have fixed this though.. but meh. Hopefully one day they will fix it.

I think they probably will, based on the Thousand Sons codex where the base sorcerers got a Tzeentchy invuln save and the ability to take inferno weapons. They must have changed their mind on that front at some point in the development cycle.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I hope they restrict souping. It shouldn't be infeasible, but there should at least be some kind of trade off here.

This. The problem isn't with one codex, it's when you soup several together that it borders on the edge. Not sure how you would do this though without going the other way and make it pointless to do.

One solution would be detachments must be mono-faction, and you are allowed 2 detachments at 2000 points instead of 3 if you soup. Not necessarily a great idea, but just an example of how it remains effective but with drawbacks.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait.. what?

There are Death Guard models in power armour that are lower than t5????!?!!!!??!!!!one!!!

And without DR. Basically any unit that is in the vanilla CSM codex that was ported across is exactly the same. Linking DR and T5 to the Death Guard Keyword would have fixed this though.. but meh. Hopefully one day they will fix it.

Literally smashing my head on my desk right now. Why are they in the codex then? Oh GW you fething sorry sots...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I guess I know what I want the FAQ to fix now...

 Marmatag wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I hope they restrict souping. It shouldn't be infeasible, but there should at least be some kind of trade off here.

This. The problem isn't with one codex, it's when you soup several together that it borders on the edge. Not sure how you would do this though without going the other way and make it pointless to do.

One solution would be detachments must be mono-faction, and you are allowed 2 detachments at 2000 points instead of 3 if you soup. Not necessarily a great idea, but just an example of how it remains effective but with drawbacks.

I would be careful with that though. Armies like IG and AM have several smaller factions commonly included in their ranks. For example, with IG, where does the keyword matter? Because I can take Adeptus Ministorum, Cult Mechanicus, Aeronautical, and militarum tempestus units that are all technically different branches straight from my codex.

Another example with AM, their codex is split 3 ways between skitarii, cult mechanicus, and knights.

I get what you're trying to do, and like the idea, just pointing out it could easily be screwed up if GW ain't careful.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait.. what?

There are Death Guard models in power armour that are lower than t5????!?!!!!??!!!!one!!!

And without DR. Basically any unit that is in the vanilla CSM codex that was ported across is exactly the same. Linking DR and T5 to the Death Guard Keyword would have fixed this though.. but meh. Hopefully one day they will fix it.

I think they probably will, based on the Thousand Sons codex where the base sorcerers got a Tzeentchy invuln save and the ability to take inferno weapons. They must have changed their mind on that front at some point in the development cycle.

Hopefully they fix it. It would be a simple errata to slot into the FAQ.

I understand the thought process behind it. They wanted "Possessed Marines" to have a consistent data sheet for streamlining. The ability to say, "oh that's a Chaos Lord? Yep, I know it's rules." instead of "Right, so what does this Chaos Lord do differently? oh, what does that weapon do now?" - but at the cost of flavour. I don't understand how a Plague Marine can rise through the ranks, gain favour of Mortarion and be given a Vectorium to command and 'well now you lost your papa nurgle blessings" .. well

I am really missing my Phil Kelly Chaos Random Table Codex with Chaos Marks right now.

You know the dumb thing is I just kit bashed a Sorc for my nurgle army and I looked at that data card a dozen times trying to make sure I was modeling on the right weapons. My mind must have just blanked it out because it was so strange, like a reverse UFO sighting or something...

 darkcloak wrote:
I am really missing my Phil Kelly Chaos Random Table Codex with Chaos Marks right now.

You know the dumb thing is I just kit bashed a Sorc for my nurgle army and I looked at that data card a dozen times trying to make sure I was modeling on the right weapons. My mind must have just blanked it out because it was so strange, like a reverse UFO sighting or something...

Boon table is still there as a stratagem (and easier to trigger)

You could just run that sorcerer as a Malignant Plaguecaster and get all the goodies that datasheet has. (Plaguecaster is way better than a standard sorc anyway due to free MW on a 7+)

Matt Ward killed 7th ed of Fantasy with the Daemons of Chaos Codex.

 Marmatag wrote:
I hope they restrict souping. It shouldn't be infeasible, but there should at least be some kind of trade off here.

There's a tournament I saw recently (Broadside Bash, I think it was) that had an addendum that Chaos/Imperium does not count as a faction keyword for Battleforged. I wonder if that's based on insider knowledge, or just something to try and fix it independently.

So far, Phil Kelly is the only person to actually write any sort of ork rules that are both strong and fun to play.

 Jidmah wrote:
So far, Phil Kelly is the only person to actually write any sort of ork rules that are both strong and fun to play.

To an extent. He is well known to heavily invest in his pet project armies more so than others. (Eldar in 6th/7th)

If he had gotten his hands (or claws?) on Nids back then they would have been power houses as well (they are decent in 8th now though)