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They are still too expensive kitted out as a dakka pred. They are stupid fragile for their cost.

If you are playing lists that can't kill 2 preds a turn you are not playing competitive lists.

Killshot only works if you get first turn or are playing casually.

It works great if you get first turn and castle up and are playing an army that has something to shoot with it on the board first turn (none of these things happen in competitive games).

It's so good we are seeing all the predator spam at major tournaments and really need to have a FAQ to make it weaker...

T7 3+ 11w just dies too easy. Too many guns are too good at shooting that particular toughness/save band.

Not having PoTMS means any moving against any of the -1 to hit armies reduces your shooting by half (3.6 expected wounds with rerolls of 1s for both shooting AND wounds against T7 3+ with pred AC to 1.8 having moved and -1).

Compared to other anti-tank options for 150 points i.e.

2x las cannon devs w/ cherub deal 6.17 expected wounds to the same t7 3+ for 120 points vs 4.5 for pred AC + H. bolters. Roughly 30% more expected damage for 25% less cost.

6.68 expected for las cannon + auto-cannon dread for 190 or 50% more damage for 25% more cost (and you get chapter tactics on the dread, no degrading and a 6+ FNP)

DA plasma ceptors get 21.8 expected damage (with overcharge and WfTDA) or 480% more damage for 16% more cost (and deepstrike so don't have to worry about getting alpha'd off the table, only good for one round of shooting but @ 22 wounds that's like an entire games worth [5 rounds] of shooting for that predator)

This is pretty basic stuff and is indicative why opinions on this site are so varied. Sure it works great in beer and pretzels but is a huge liability in competitive games...

Martel732 wrote:
They are still too expensive kitted out as a dakka pred. They are stupid fragile for their cost.

LRBT is 10.2 points per wound (T8)
LR is is 14.9 (T8 @ 2+)
Pred is 8.2
Hammerhead is 7.7

That puts the predator 6 points or so off from the Hammerhead if they have equivalent wounds. Hammerhead can fly, but doesn't have a variant like quad las pred (and not everything needs to be the same).

Baal is in a weird spot paying for the ability to advance faster.

I don't see how they're getting wrecked easily unless you regularly face tons of lascannons. Yes, they can die quick, but from the appropriate measure of force.


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bananathug wrote:

2x las cannon devs w/ cherub deal 6.17 expected wounds to the same t7 3+ for 120 points vs 4.5 for pred AC + H. bolters. Roughly 30% more expected damage for 25% less cost.

Ok, now compare their durability to the predator.

 Xenomancers wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Uh killshot needs no buff

It absolutely needs a buff - as it stands right now - 3 preds are required to use the fething stratagem - other than the much crappier line breaker bombardment of 3 vindicators - no other stratagem required 3 of anything to use (not that I can remember anyways. The eldar fireprism stratagem which is already twice as good (because it rerolls all hits and wounds) only requires 2. So go on and tell me how kill shot doesn't need a buff.

Zoanthropes say hi.

Datalink telemetry would be a really good stratagem if whirlwinds were not overcosted.

Judging by how they waited until after adepticon, and persoanlly seeing how many flyrants there were.. go ahead and sell them now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

(snip)
Ok, now compare their durability to the predator.

Sure, against anti-tank weapons it takes about 8 las-cannon shots to just remove the 3 extra bodies (devs in cover) losing approx 1.5 models per 4 shots so to get rid of the next two devs (the guys with the las cannons) you need 4 more las cannon shots or 12 las cannon shots.

To take out the pred, 4 shots take off 5.2 wounds so 8-9 las cannons or easier to kill than the devs. (Odds of parking the pred in cover is much less than the devs in cover.)

Why am I shooting anti-tank weapons at the devs? Because when you run nothing but infantry what else are they going to shoot them at? Also range (not much shoots @ 48" that isn't anti-tank)

So 30% more damage, 25% less expensive and 33% more resilient...

edit: typo

Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


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Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


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Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

?

Surely addressing balance issues as quickly as possible is an improvement over letting them sit for a year.

Sounds like you want a bit more time to abuse your Flyrant list, or am I mistaken?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They are still too expensive kitted out as a dakka pred. They are stupid fragile for their cost.

LRBT is 10.2 points per wound (T8)
LR is is 14.9 (T8 @ 2+)
Pred is 8.2
Hammerhead is 7.7

That puts the predator 6 points or so off from the Hammerhead if they have equivalent wounds. Hammerhead can fly, but doesn't have a variant like quad las pred (and not everything needs to be the same).

Baal is in a weird spot paying for the ability to advance faster.

I don't see how they're getting wrecked easily unless you regularly face tons of lascannons. Yes, they can die quick, but from the appropriate measure of force.


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bananathug wrote:

2x las cannon devs w/ cherub deal 6.17 expected wounds to the same t7 3+ for 120 points vs 4.5 for pred AC + H. bolters. Roughly 30% more expected damage for 25% less cost.

Ok, now compare their durability to the predator.

Leman Russ has T8 wounds, not T7, and its default weapon is better against a much wider range of targets than any given predator configuration. I use predators frequently, but I hate them for their inefficiency.

Predators are vulnerable to all kinds of crap that Leman Russ laughs at. Krak missiles, mortars, boltguns, autocannons, the list is rather long.

Am I the only one that thinks "Scions of Guilliman" should be available to all chapters? It's basically the Tactical doctrine from 7th. I'd like to see all chapters get access to it, then Ultramarines can get a stratagem not based around rerolls. We have "King rerolls himself" we don't need a stratagem based around them.

As far as Killshot and line breaker bombardment go, just make them proportional. For every X tanks add X. That way its weaker with only 2, but taking 3 would be more worth it

I also wouldn't mind stealing "Acquisition at any cost" from Ad-mech, along with "Machine Spirit Resurgence". But I don't see that happening.

And Naturally I want chapter tactics for everything like everyone else now

bananathug wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

(snip)
Ok, now compare their durability to the predator.

Sure, against anti-tank weapons it takes about 8 las-cannon shots to just remove the 3 extra bodies (devs in cover) losing approx 1.5 models per 4 shots so to get rid of the next two devs (the guys with the las cannons) you need 4 more las cannon shots or 12 las cannon shots.

To take out the pred, 4 shots take off 5.2 wounds so 8-9 las cannons or easier to kill than the devs. (Odds of parking the pred in cover is much less than the devs in cover.)

Why am I shooting anti-tank weapons at the devs? Because when you run nothing but infantry what else are they going to shoot them at? Also range (not much shoots @ 48" that isn't anti-tank)

So 30% more damage, 25% less expensive and 33% more resilient...

edit: typo

Yet predators still appear very common. It's not realistic to assume the other army only has las preds. And i'll agree about infantry with 48" weapons having an extra degree of protection - I made the same claim in the Lootas thread.

And while the 2x lascannon in a dev squad is somewhat unique you're paying 57.5 points per LC. A quad laspred pays 47.5. That's why they're still around. Devs COULD take extra LC, but unless they're taking extra ablative wounds they're losing heavy weapons sooner.


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Martel732 wrote:

Leman Russ has T8 wounds, not T7, and its default weapon is better against a much wider range of targets than any given predator configuration. I use predators frequently, but I hate them for their inefficiency.

Predators are vulnerable to all kinds of crap that Leman Russ laughs at. Krak missiles, mortars, boltguns, autocannons, the list is rather long.

I know - I called it out as T8 and it pays a higher price per wound. We might get ahead of ourselves comparing to LRBTs, which may be a bit undercosted themselves.

"We might get ahead of ourselves comparing to LRBTs, which may be a bit undercosted themselves. "

Fair enough. I'm not in the devastator camp, necessarily. Other than the fact i can stuff them in pods to make them immune to alpha. However, I've done some pretty nasty stuff with the pred autocannon. It's just never enough against the power lists.

bananathug wrote:
If you are playing lists that can't kill 2 preds a turn you are not playing competitive lists.

..

I see this statement made quite a few times and yet the top 4 players at Adepticon had lists that could not kill two Predators on turn one.

I agree that there are many strong lists that can't kill 2 preds in a turn. However, there are even MORE strong lists that a marine list has to get through to get to the top tables that make a mockery of them. Preds are not a strong choice; they are a very risky choice. Your luck just runs out too easily with them.

Spartacus wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

?

Surely addressing balance issues as quickly as possible is an improvement over letting them sit for a year.

Sounds like you want a bit more time to abuse your Flyrant list, or am I mistaken?

I play imperial guard


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The whining about how broken guard is gets so fuggin old

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

Conscripts and Scions got nerfed in an emergency FAQ even before their codex came out. The Tyranid codex is only a few weeks younger than the Eldar one.

Scions need a round 2 unfortunately.

Armigers need help bad

gendoikari87 wrote:
Armigers need help bad

You should wait for the IK book on those.

Hoping the get announced soon

gendoikari87 wrote:
Killshot kills tanks read with heavy bolters, it doesn’t need a buff

It needs a buff just by comparing it to the fire prism strategem. How else are you going to balance things if not by balancing them vs other strategems that do the exact same thing.

Linked fire - requires 2 tanks within LOS - gives reroll hits and wounds vs the same target.
kill shot - requires 3 tanks within 6 inches of each other - gives +1 to wound vs the same target.

+1 to wound is worse than reroll wounds in every situation. Reroll hits is a huge additional bonus - no grouping requirement - 1 less tank requirement.

Are you of the opinion that link fire needs to be nerfed down to the level of suck of kill shot? Or do you believe that eldar stratagems should just be better than space marines ones...because they are eldar?

Actually I have a question- How is it that Linked fire gives re-roll to hit and wound ignore LoS and other benefits all for 1 CP yet for me to use psybolts cost 2 CP? (I get +1S and 1 better AP for all of my bolter shots from 1 unit for 1 attack [bolters become S5 AP-1 Dam1])

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually I have a question- How is it that Linked fire gives re-roll to hit and wound ignore LoS and other benefits all for 1 CP yet for me to use psybolts cost 2 CP? (I get +1S and 1 better AP for all of my bolter shots from 1 unit for 1 attack [bolters become S5 AP-1 Dam1])

Probably has something to do with the guy that wrote the rules for eldar, he plays eldar.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

Guard stuff was addressed early and often. The Nid codex and Eldar codex are pretty close in age. GE only wants to make balance adjustments twice per year, so if tyrants do not get fixed in this FAQ they sit as is until November CA. So what you are suggesting is the Guard who have gotten some nerfs since their release 1 month prior to Nids, and Eldar who were released like 2 weeks earlier should get nerfed (sometimes again) in April (so “full power” for 5-6 months), but Nids should get a pass until November (so 1 full year unaddressed). That seems fair to you?

Breng77 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

Guard stuff was addressed early and often. The Nid codex and Eldar codex are pretty close in age. GE only wants to make balance adjustments twice per year, so if tyrants do not get fixed in this FAQ they sit as is until November CA. So what you are suggesting is the Guard who have gotten some nerfs since their release 1 month prior to Nids, and Eldar who were released like 2 weeks earlier should get nerfed (sometimes again) in April (so “full power” for 5-6 months), but Nids should get a pass until November (so 1 full year unaddressed). That seems fair to you?

Well Grey Knights have almost gone a full year unaddressed. They still suck but maybe there's not as many people clamoring for a GK buff as people asking for a flyrant nerf

Breng77 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

Guard stuff was addressed early and often. The Nid codex and Eldar codex are pretty close in age. GE only wants to make balance adjustments twice per year, so if tyrants do not get fixed in this FAQ they sit as is until November CA. So what you are suggesting is the Guard who have gotten some nerfs since their release 1 month prior to Nids, and Eldar who were released like 2 weeks earlier should get nerfed (sometimes again) in April (so “full power” for 5-6 months), but Nids should get a pass until November (so 1 full year unaddressed). That seems fair to you?

Guard also got nerfed before GW "set in stone" (lol) their policy of FAQs and Balance Changes. It was the rapid Guard Balance changes that caused the outcry that caused GW to specify when and where ballance changes would be, along with the "2 week" faq rule that I don't even know is followed any more.

 Xenomancers wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Killshot kills tanks read with heavy bolters, it doesn’t need a buff

It needs a buff just by comparing it to the fire prism strategem. How else are you going to balance things if not by balancing them vs other strategems that do the exact same thing.

Linked fire - requires 2 tanks within LOS - gives reroll hits and wounds vs the same target.
kill shot - requires 3 tanks within 6 inches of each other - gives +1 to wound vs the same target.

+1 to wound is worse than reroll wounds in every situation. Reroll hits is a huge additional bonus - no grouping requirement - 1 less tank requirement.

Are you of the opinion that link fire needs to be nerfed down to the level of suck of kill shot? Or do you believe that eldar stratagems should just be better than space marines ones...because they are eldar?

You are not being fair here, you are leaving out the biggest bonus of killshot, +1 damage.

And didn't Linked Fire move an ability that used to be part of the Fire Prism itself into a Stratagem? GW seems to be giving CP cost discount when they do that.

I exoect Guilliman will get another price increase, Tyranids and Eldar will get another nerf, and maybe Marines of all kind will get a small buff.

I dont think we will see many changes to the index lists, since i expect they should all be cleared out (other than sisters) by the end of the year.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I mean they let guards brokenness sit for over a year and dark reapers but suddenly flyrants are a bit powerful and that’s gotta get fixed NOW NOW NOW! ? I mean really?

Guard stuff was addressed early and often. The Nid codex and Eldar codex are pretty close in age. GE only wants to make balance adjustments twice per year, so if tyrants do not get fixed in this FAQ they sit as is until November CA. So what you are suggesting is the Guard who have gotten some nerfs since their release 1 month prior to Nids, and Eldar who were released like 2 weeks earlier should get nerfed (sometimes again) in April (so “full power” for 5-6 months), but Nids should get a pass until November (so 1 full year unaddressed). That seems fair to you?

Well Grey Knights have almost gone a full year unaddressed. They still suck but maybe there's not as many people clamoring for a GK buff as people asking for a flyrant nerf

Try GK are about 7 months old. But nerfs will always be clamored for more than buffs, they effect more people. Buffs only really get called for from people playing a faction because that is who benefits. Nerfs benefit everyone who plays against a faction with by definition is a larger group of players.