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Tyran wrote:
Ironically, Hive Tyrants have unique point costs for all their weapons except Monstrous Rending Claws.

Everyone agrees that Monstrous Rending Claws should be nerfed by a point cost (currently free).

I don't agree. And this wouldn't fix spam, people would just take double devourers for 24 shots, if the aren't *already*.

No one cared about Flyrant spam until it did well in one major event that was suspect as all hell and favored durable models that don't give up kill points, and had no LOS blocking terrain. These same exact flyrant lists got curb stomped at LVO (which is a bigger event).

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Ironically, Hive Tyrants have unique point costs for all their weapons except Monstrous Rending Claws.

Everyone agrees that Monstrous Rending Claws should be nerfed by a point cost (currently free).

I don't agree. And this wouldn't fix spam, people would just take double devourers for 24 shots, if the aren't *already*.

No one cared about Flyrant spam until it did well in one major event that was suspect as all hell and favored durable models that don't give up kill points, and had no LOS blocking terrain. These same exact flyrant lists got curb stomped at LVO (which is a bigger event).

It may not fix the spam, but Monstrous Rending Claws seriously needs a point cost.

To be fair GW came out of their Nottingham ivory tower and entered the world of cut throat US play. They may have been confronted with questions and situations that they hadn't considered in the past and now they feel the need to correct some of those things. Rather than putting out 2 separate documents they decided to keep it to only one more thing to look information up in.

Yeah, after the gak show that was Chapter Approved clearly not being built with the updates most recent to it in mind, I can wait a bit longer if it means getting something that isn't such an utter failure.

Tyran wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Ironically, Hive Tyrants have unique point costs for all their weapons except Monstrous Rending Claws.

Everyone agrees that Monstrous Rending Claws should be nerfed by a point cost (currently free).

I don't agree. And this wouldn't fix spam, people would just take double devourers for 24 shots, if the aren't *already*.

No one cared about Flyrant spam until it did well in one major event that was suspect as all hell and favored durable models that don't give up kill points, and had no LOS blocking terrain. These same exact flyrant lists got curb stomped at LVO (which is a bigger event).

It may not fix the spam, but Monstrous Rending Claws seriously needs a point cost.

Why? Maybe monstrous scything talons need to be +2 strength. They're auto-take not because they're free but because monstrous scything talons are garbage.

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Ironically, Hive Tyrants have unique point costs for all their weapons except Monstrous Rending Claws.

Everyone agrees that Monstrous Rending Claws should be nerfed by a point cost (currently free).

I don't agree. And this wouldn't fix spam, people would just take double devourers for 24 shots, if the aren't *already*.

No one cared about Flyrant spam until it did well in one major event that was suspect as all hell and favored durable models that don't give up kill points, and had no LOS blocking terrain. These same exact flyrant lists got curb stomped at LVO (which is a bigger event).

Flyrants did worse at LVO because different missions were used (ICT secondaries heavily influence which units are good) plus it might be one major event in the US but from what I heard Flyrants have been doing well in the UK for some time, even back at LVO when Flyrants were brought up as an effective counter to Dark Reapers

I've been playing Tyranids for a while, i'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Flying Hive Tyrants. A 24 shot Tyrant against reapers outside of cover isn't a bad deal. But when the reapers have cover - and, when they can fire & fade, and receive Ynaari boosts - suddenly the Tyrants lose.

There's a reason why los blocking terrain / cover is a big deal, and a reason why Adepticon had wildly different results than LVO, aside from the missions.

I also play a TON of ITC format events. Adepticon favored them.

If anything this proves how far the ITC has come, and have balanced this kind of thing out of the meta with a diverse and interesting mission pack.

I do NOT agree that Tyrants are overpowered.

Yes they created a tournament where 5 out of the top 8th were based around dark reapers.

 Marmatag wrote:
I've been playing Tyranids for a while, i'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Flying Hive Tyrants. A 24 shot Tyrant against reapers outside of cover isn't a bad deal. But when the reapers have cover - and, when they can fire & fade, and receive Ynaari boosts - suddenly the Tyrants lose.

There's a reason why los blocking terrain / cover is a big deal, and a reason why Adepticon had wildly different results than LVO, aside from the missions.

I also play a TON of ITC format events. Adepticon favored them.

If anything this proves how far the ITC has come, and have balanced this kind of thing out of the meta with a diverse and interesting mission pack.

I do NOT agree that Tyrants are overpowered.

Coming from a Tyranid player who likes ITC rules, this doesn't come across as massively unbiased, either. It's lots of opinion, with little facts, and as the other poster noted, ITC just ended up with a totally different kind of spam, so not really fixing the issue.

 Marmatag wrote:


No one cared about Flyrant spam until it did well in one major event

To be fair this is the first mainstream exposure for people.

 Marmatag wrote:
I've been playing Tyranids for a while, i'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Flying Hive Tyrants. A 24 shot Tyrant against reapers outside of cover isn't a bad deal. But when the reapers have cover - and, when they can fire & fade, and receive Ynaari boosts - suddenly the Tyrants lose.

There's a reason why los blocking terrain / cover is a big deal, and a reason why Adepticon had wildly different results than LVO, aside from the missions.

I also play a TON of ITC format events. Adepticon favored them.

If anything this proves how far the ITC has come, and have balanced this kind of thing out of the meta with a diverse and interesting mission pack.

I do NOT agree that Tyrants are overpowered.

I think they are mildly undercosted. And that mild undercosting is getting multiplied by 7 in these lists. Flyrants are better than you think.

I except that Grenade Launchers will be back at range of 36".

That is all that is needed.

 EnTyme wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
They specifically said they were taking time to consider Adepticon feedback and were pushing the FAQ back as a result.

Irrelevant. They knew when adepticon was. they knew the deadline they set. AND THEY MISSED THE FIRST ONE. C'Mon people.that does NOT engender faith in the new system

And as has been previously mentioned, had they released the FAQ this week without having a chance to consider Adepticon, there would have been an uproar about how "issue x, which Adepticon clearly showed, was in no way addressed by this FAQ!" There would have been questions about why they didn't delay and complaints about how we now have to wait until September to see the fix.

See here's why that's a bad idea. by the time they're done "fixing" things from the adepticon spam, there will be another they'll have to fix, and another and another and OOOPS it's september and we don't have the march faq.

Pinch it off already, yes it's not complete, no fething gak, it's never going to be. Drop it now, address flyrants in sept.

Could be that it's not just spam/broken balance their addressing... The design team was there at the doubles right? Perhaps they are addressing something toxic about tournament play? Perhaps a rules paradox came up in their games and they want to resolve it? Hell, maybe some of the FAQ questions we sent in started to make sense once they got to play against anyone but themselves.

Give them the benefit of the doubt once; if it becomes a regular habbit then give them flack

It's always "wait for x" or "give them slackfor now". This keeps going for decades. Would be nice for a change of pace for this mythical "one day" to actually appear rather than players constantly giving slack "for now"

tneva82 wrote:
It's always "wait for x" or "give them slackfor now". This keeps going for decades. Would be nice for a change of pace for this mythical "one day" to actually appear rather than players constantly giving slack "for now"

You mean like them putting out two codices a month? Or like them engaging on social media? Or them committing to a FAQ on a schedule instead of by the will of the gods? Or them offering list building tools? Or them answering questions on at shows and events? Or them engaging part of the community for playtesting?

yeah you're right, the gak they were up to 3 years ago certainly should be the meter stick by which we judge them now.

They missed ONE deadline that they set themselves, and they let us know right away why the missed it... Further that why amounts to "we found something that needs to be addressed"... When I started playing GW wouldn't have EVER looked at something that needed to be addressed, much less be actively trying to fix it. They CERTAINLY wouldn't have let us know about it.

gendoikari87 wrote:
See here's why that's a bad idea. by the time they're done "fixing" things from the adepticon spam, there will be another they'll have to fix, and another and another and OOOPS it's september and we don't have the march faq.

Pinch it off already, yes it's not complete, no fething gak, it's never going to be. Drop it now, address flyrants in sept.

1)
2) There will always be things to address - some less severe than others. That's why they committed to three touch points a year.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like a very big deal. Like, releasing a codex with major imbalances is a big deal. Best-case, that's not getting fixed for months, and if the unit is underpowered it might not be getting fixed for years. Delaying an update for a week or two is just whatever. It's annoying if you have a scheduled event, but TOs should obviously be setting cutoff dates for new rules that are well in advance of the event anyway.

I'd rather they take another month and give us a better product, personally.

It’s gw, there are ALWAYS balance issues to fix, always. If you wait for it to be perfect April will turn to may to September to Jan to never. If your going to pick March and sep as your faq times, hit your deadline and drop what you have. What’s left can be fixed in September


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If six months is bad for hive tyrant spam, over a year of IG brokenness is utterly absurd


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a perfect case of where the best is the enemy of good enough

Rocmistro 751335 9903622 wrote:

The only SM Stratagem that really needs fixing (as in, a nerf) is RG Strike from the Shadows. That's the only one that can be "spammed". And if they nerf that, then they need to buff at least 7 other Space Marine stratagems that never get used because they are so unit-model specific and/or crappy;

Linebreaker
Killshot
Orbital Bombardment
Empyric Channeling
Datalink Telemetry
Tactical Flexibility
Armor of Contempt

I've used Armor of Contempt with Sammael. When he's in his speeder, he has the Vehicle keyword. Other than that, though, yeah, those strats are pretty underwhelming.

Uh killshot needs no buff

Killshot is actually good. The only problem is it NEEDS three Predators. Kill one and it's gone.

Linebreaker suffers from Vindicators not being good.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Uh killshot needs no buff

It absolutely needs a buff - as it stands right now - 3 preds are required to use the fething stratagem - other than the much crappier line breaker bombardment of 3 vindicators - no other stratagem required 3 of anything to use (not that I can remember anyways. The eldar fireprism stratagem which is already twice as good (because it rerolls all hits and wounds) only requires 2. So go on and tell me how kill shot doesn't need a buff.

Killshot kills tanks read with heavy bolters, it doesn’t need a buff

 Xenomancers wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Uh killshot needs no buff

It absolutely needs a buff - as it stands right now - 3 preds are required to use the fething stratagem - other than the much crappier line breaker bombardment of 3 vindicators - no other stratagem required 3 of anything to use (not that I can remember anyways. The eldar fireprism stratagem which is already twice as good (because it rerolls all hits and wounds) only requires 2. So go on and tell me how kill shot doesn't need a buff.

As a guy whose using Killshot as a corner stone of his list, I'm perfectly fine with where it is.

I think the predator needs to be cheaper, being T7 3+ W11, rather than a killshot change.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the predator needs to be cheaper, being T7 3+ W11, rather than a killshot change.

I don't buy that one. Predator is good where it is and is. If you want to cheaper take HBs and Pred AC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the predator needs to be cheaper, being T7 3+ W11, rather than a killshot change.

I don't buy that one. Predator is good where it is and is. If you want to cheaper take HBs and Pred AC.

I agree, it's priced appropriately. It's still a SM tank, not a drukhari paper thing

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the predator needs to be cheaper, being T7 3+ W11, rather than a killshot change.

I don't buy that one. Predator is good where it is and is. If you want to cheaper take HBs and Pred AC.

Yeah, that's exactly how I roll mine. 3 of them had zero issue dropping a Tesseract Vault, twice, yesterday. Spending all the points on the quad las preds is just silly IMO.