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Reading all of this I'm seeing both side and the only conclusion that I can come to is that tacticals without a special rule have no function in 8th edition.

Which the more I think about it is really bad game design from the get go. But fundamentally the only reason to take troops choices is CP generation in 8th scouts do it for less points and with better rules tactical marines are never going to work out better than scouts. And that before taking soup options into consideration.

The points being made about the knock on impacts are correct, where marines hit hard by the changed to CC attack calculations etc yes, but with points adjustment vangard vets,sternguard etc can be competitive.

The only reason for a troops in 8th for marines is to give you a detachment with more CP's. So to do this tacticals have to gice you a reason to choose them over scouts which they don't.

The only way around this now is allowing them to refund CP's for stratageums used on them on a 6+(or add one to refund roll).

I agree Guilliman needs to be totally rewritten as 6 inch bubble is terrible to play and has no strategy hence why its been rapidly replaced one newer codex appeared.
Forcing marines who are usually out numbered to huddle within 6inch was a bad idea that should have never made the index let alone the codex.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
@Slayer-Fan

Your idea affects the whole game and doesn't really make Tactical Marines any better than scouts or Sororitas (since both of those can get Bolt Weapons for cheaper). Changing the boltgun changes the basic weapons for damn near every Imperial faction except Guard and Mechanicus, meaning that you're hardly making Tactical Marines better, you're just upping everything by that amount. If the problem is Tactical Marines, then buff Tactical Marines, don't buff Dominion squads and Inquisitorial Acolytes. I mean heck, your proposed rule would buff Chaos and I'm not really sure why that's desirable.

Re-organizing the tactical squad's weapon options, your other idea, makes sense and I would not be averse to trying it. I wouldn't even be averse to giving Tactical squads 2 specials in a 5-man like Scions.

I'm actually sick of the 2 specials per 5 thing at the moment. It's super over done and something Sternguard already do and to an extent Devastators (well with heavy weapons anyway).

However the Bolter only LOOKS like the basic weapon for most factions is because how split up Marines are when at least a couple can be consolidated into the Vanilla codex (Blood and Dark Angels being the absolute worst offenders). Heck I'm for Marines getting a special Bolter for them whilst Sisters actually get cheaper by a point to compensate for how Melta and Flamers work at the moment (as you can't really make them more effective but those weapons certainly need to be cheaper).

It's hard to track how many thoughts I have on my phone of course.

Martel732 wrote:
You also forget that many marines have some expensive equipment,too. The efficiency quickly climbs. Sisters usually get storm bolters, so at least they remain cheap.

But they don't get SO MUCH MORE than what SM gets. No flyers, no speeders, No plasma, no Lascannons, no ML's, i could make a list of 50+ more items.

2 specials per 5 just make them give up more points when they die to 48" or longer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also forget that many marines have some expensive equipment,too. The efficiency quickly climbs. Sisters usually get storm bolters, so at least they remain cheap.

But they don't get SO MUCH MORE than what SM gets. No flyers, no speeders, No plasma, no Lascannons, no ML's, i could make a list of 50+ more items.

Being cheap seems to trump all that in practice. Or at least most of it. Lascannons are nice, but the rest of it is very forgettable. Marines have a lot of false choices. A lot. It reminds me of pathfinder RPG.

Martel732 wrote:
2 specials per 5 just make them give up more points when they die to 48" or longer guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also forget that many marines have some expensive equipment,too. The efficiency quickly climbs. Sisters usually get storm bolters, so at least they remain cheap.

But they don't get SO MUCH MORE than what SM gets. No flyers, no speeders, No plasma, no Lascannons, no ML's, i could make a list of 50+ more items.

Being cheap seems to trump all that in practice. Or at least most of it.

I see you ignored my point.

Awesome.

Stop over-equipping your marines. That's a player error, not an army error.

Hey Martel- why don't you show us one of your typical 2000 pt lists? Then we can at least see what's being blown off the table all of the time.

"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

I don't have a typical list, but I can give an average.

This a brigade similar to others I have been experimenting with. But I have other lists that actually have DC or SG in them.

Capt Hammer
Hammer
Infernus

Capt Lame
Hammer
Inferus

Lt Dan
Hammer

Tac squad
Lascannon

Tac squad
Lascannon

Tac squad
Lascannon

Scouts

Scouts

Scouts

Dev Squad
Lascannon
Grav cannon

Dev Squad
Lascannon
Grav cannon

Dev Squad
Lascannon
Lascannon

Assault squad
Plasma gun
Plasma gun
Plasma pistol

Attack Bike
MM

Attack Bike
MM

Reivers

Reivers

Rhino
Storm Bolter

Drop Pod
Stormbolter

Vanguards
5 more
Storm shield X 6
Plasma pistol X 4
Hammer
Power axe
Power maul
Power sword

 Melissia wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Scouts are still the better unit, because their improved deployment options and weapons flexibility is more useful ingame than +1 armour save is, in my opinion.

I'd argue tacticals have better weapons flexibility; I'm personally playing a scout-heavy army right now (scouts and terminators, specifically), and I feel incredibly limited by what my scouts can actually equip that would actually be useful.

edit: removed quote pyramid

Having more options isn't exactly a plus when they're worse about those options than literally any other unit. I proved that with the Sternguard vs Tactical argument I had to have with Insectum. Objective Secured is a non-bonus, seriously. I didn't miss it with Necrons during 7th that's for sure.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

One would think that these things would make a bigger difference. But they don't seem to in practice.

Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

Sisters don't even have a codex yet, I'm just saying.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The pods and rhino hide all the devs. Everything tbat can have a pack does. Grav cannons in pods are money.

I also presume that all the TACs are 5 man units. Is this correct? Also which chapter tactics are you using?

That list is similar to the one Reece used in the most recent Frontline Gaming battle report against Custodies and won with even with an uphill battle.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The Pod is for filling a unit entry as nobody uses them.

Rhinos are okay but definitely unnecessary for most of my lists as I will find natural mobility elsewhere. At minimum they are decent for Sternguard but have no purpose to use them for Tactical Marines as it doesn't really do anything for them.

Yeah. Extra guys are listed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The Pod is for filling a unit entry as nobody uses them.

Rhinos are okay but definitely unnecessary for most of my lists as I will find natural mobility elsewhere. At minimum they are decent for Sternguard but have no purpose to use them for Tactical Marines as it doesn't really do anything for them.

I'll let you and Martel talk it out then, as the Pod doesn't fill a unit entry (it's a DT) and Martel said how he uses them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

Sisters don't even have a codex yet, I'm just saying.

And i was saying that currently b.c SM has a codex and how much survivable they are and the weapon options are mostly better. They are 20pts more per squad, but they are that much more survivable from any S3/S4/S6/S7 meaning they will over all do more damage, given Traits this makes it even more so give a 105pt Dev HB squad -1 to hit out of 12" and see how much longer it lasts vs a Ret quad for 85pts.

Bolters vs Ret: 34 to kill squad
Bolters vs Dev: 45 to kill a squad
Bolters -1 vs Dev: 60 to kill a squad

So for 20pts more with a codex its a 45% difference. Is that 45% in points? Heck no, its only a 21% difference

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

Grav Cannons are excellent weapons. They average more wounds against a tank than a Lascannon, are excellent at killing Elites, and have an extra shot over a Heavy Bolter for clearing hordes if you have to. I Drop Pod Grav Cannons all the time. You just have to commit your Devs to the front to optimize target availability, which is fine, since they're just basic Marines with more Heavy Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The Pod is for filling a unit entry as nobody uses them.

Hi! My name is Insectum and I know you know I use Pods.

Also, that's a poor answer anyways since Pods don't fill any mandatory unit entry.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The Pod is for filling a unit entry as nobody uses them.

Rhinos are okay but definitely unnecessary for most of my lists as I will find natural mobility elsewhere. At minimum they are decent for Sternguard but have no purpose to use them for Tactical Marines as it doesn't really do anything for them.

I'll let you and Martel talk it out then, as the Pod doesn't fill a unit entry (it's a DT) and Martel said how he uses them.

You knew what I meant.

And that's something I disagree with Martel on for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

Grav Cannons are excellent weapons. They average more wounds against a tank than a Lascannon, are excellent at killing Elites, and have an extra shot over a Heavy Bolter for clearing hordes if you have to. I Drop Pod Grav Cannons all the time. You just have to commit your Devs to the front to optimize target availability, which is fine, since they're just basic Marines with more Heavy Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can I ask what the pod and the rhino are for before making any calls?

A few notes also: I don't think Devastators with Grav Cannons are worth it. Do your Vanguard and ASM have jump packs?

The Pod is for filling a unit entry as nobody uses them.

Hi! My name is Insectum and I know you know I use Pods.

Also, that's a poor answer anyways since Pods don't fill any mandatory unit entry.

Seriously I mean filling a unit entry in the codex.

And Pods are terrible and NO I don't care how anything works in your casual meta.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seriously I mean filling a unit entry in the codex.

And Pods are terrible and NO I don't care how anything works in your casual meta.

And the question was asked in regards to Martels list, so it's still a bad answer.

You could probably use a Pod yourself to reinforce your Lias Drop, seriously. Since he's limited to three units you'd get some mileage bringing in a Lieutennant and some additional Devastators, etc.

Give +1 wounds to all non-character infantries & bikers. Exclude scouts.
Add the lines "when targeting non-vehicles, this weapon's AP value is improved by 1 (i.e. heavy bolter is -2 AP)" to all bolt weapon entries.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seriously I mean filling a unit entry in the codex.

And Pods are terrible and NO I don't care how anything works in your casual meta.

And the question was asked in regards to Martels list, so it's still a bad answer.

You could probably use a Pod yourself to reinforce your Lias Drop, seriously. Since he's limited to three units you'd get some mileage bringing in a Lieutennant and some additional Devastators, etc.

Or I could pay 15 points for a Jump Pack for the Lieutenant and just use a Command Point as necessary for extra Infiltration, seeing as most of the Marine Strategems aren't worth using. Therefore that saves me 100 points to spend on something else.

 skchsan wrote:
Give +1 wounds to all non-character infantries & bikers. Exclude scouts.

While three wound terminators are amusing and make my list even harder to kill, this would just be ridiculous.

 Melissia wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Give +1 wounds to all non-character infantries & bikers. Exclude scouts.

While three wound terminators are amusing and make my list even harder to kill, this would just be ridiculous.

And then you have a spill-over to 4 wound Paladins.

NOW we end up stepping on the toes of Custodes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Give +1 wounds to all non-character infantries & bikers. Exclude scouts.

While three wound terminators are amusing and make my list even harder to kill, this would just be ridiculous.

And then you have a spill-over to 4 wound Paladins.

NOW we end up stepping on the toes of Custodes.

Indeed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seriously I mean filling a unit entry in the codex.

And Pods are terrible and NO I don't care how anything works in your casual meta.

And the question was asked in regards to Martels list, so it's still a bad answer.

You could probably use a Pod yourself to reinforce your Lias Drop, seriously. Since he's limited to three units you'd get some mileage bringing in a Lieutennant and some additional Devastators, etc.

Or I could pay 15 points for a Jump Pack for the Lieutenant and just use a Command Point as necessary for extra Infiltration, seeing as most of the Marine Strategems aren't worth using. Therefore that saves me 100 points to spend on something else.

The Infiltration strat is nice but it doesn't protect your models the same way. Only 67 points, btw, once you spend your (18 for JP) on a Lt.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seriously I mean filling a unit entry in the codex.

And Pods are terrible and NO I don't care how anything works in your casual meta.

And the question was asked in regards to Martels list, so it's still a bad answer.

You could probably use a Pod yourself to reinforce your Lias Drop, seriously. Since he's limited to three units you'd get some mileage bringing in a Lieutennant and some additional Devastators, etc.

Or I could pay 15 points for a Jump Pack for the Lieutenant and just use a Command Point as necessary for extra Infiltration, seeing as most of the Marine Strategems aren't worth using. Therefore that saves me 100 points to spend on something else.

The Infiltration strat is nice but it doesn't protect your models the same way. Only 67 points, btw, once you spend your (18 for JP) on a Lt.

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

I'm going to predict that again marines will not perform like 13 ppm models.

For the record, BA have a bunch of stratagems worth using.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

Sisters don't even have a codex yet, I'm just saying.

And i was saying that currently b.c SM has a codex and how much survivable they are and the weapon options are mostly better. They are 20pts more per squad, but they are that much more survivable from any S3/S4/S6/S7 meaning they will over all do more damage, given Traits this makes it even more so give a 105pt Dev HB squad -1 to hit out of 12" and see how much longer it lasts vs a Ret quad for 85pts.

Bolters vs Ret: 34 to kill squad
Bolters vs Dev: 45 to kill a squad
Bolters -1 vs Dev: 60 to kill a squad

So for 20pts more with a codex its a 45% difference. Is that 45% in points? Heck no, its only a 21% difference

Everytime I play sisters they keep coming back to life. That seems infinitely more durable to me.