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Going to throw this out there...

How would Marine players feel about the following rule to be added to non-vehicle/scout models?

Armour of Contempt: When a model suffers a wound from a weapon that has no Armor Penetration value, roll a D6. On a 5+, the wound is ignored.

This ability does not stack with >Insert Name of Abilities that grant FNP like abilities<.

 Primark G wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
How about if 5 man tactical squads could take a heavy weapon and a special weapon again? I think that would go a long way towards making tactical squads viable again.

And where does that leave Crusader Squads?

It leaves them fine. We are trying to fix MeQ, not Q_Q.

They're so fine that they never see play competetively.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a less SM player, but always read the rules for them b.c they are the bread and butter of 40k.

They just need a new Codex, some better stratagems, options, and traits will do.

There should be a Bonus for taking a 10man over a 5man (due to Sargent's etc.. and b.c Scouts are just as good). Like many armies that gain bonus's for having X or more, some are +1 attack, some are re-rolls. Tac Marines need a bonus just for them.

An idea could be; If the unit is not combat squad and has 10 models they gain +1 to their Move, Advance, and BS. But they can Combat Squad anytime during the game, in the turn they do so they gain +1 WS and can Re-roll charges.

That's a neat idea, make them actually good at being generalist, so you could put them in "shooty mode" or "combat mode", like Kastelans but better. The only change I'd make to your idea would be the assault tacts: +1 attack would very much help as well. Re-roll charges also would mean the Black Templars chapter tactic would have to be re-worked, I think, but it could do. Personally I've been a fan (for Black Templars) of rolling 3d6 and taking the two highest for charges, because re-rolls take more time. This would just reinforce that.

A Shooting mode and a Combat mode is also a neat idea.

Either way it is done, i feel a bonus rule will help them.

A lot of the suggestions would just lead to people who play other races complaining they want it too for their troops.

 Primark G wrote:
A lot of the suggestions would just lead to people who play other races complaining they want it too for their troops.

This reminds me of the Eldar players recently who thought Raven Guard Scouts with Camo Cloaks would get a -2 or higher to be hit at range...


I get that it might be a 'Big Deal', but it might also be a way to finally make Marines feel worth their points cost if they can potentially shrug off small arms fire.

Give tacs ability to throw one grenade per model for 1cp. 10 krak grenades thrown would be cool. Or all out on frags vs weak stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
A lot of the suggestions would just lead to people who play other races complaining they want it too for their troops.

This reminds me of the Eldar players recently who thought Raven Guard Scouts with Camo Cloaks would get a -2 or higher to be hit at range...


I get that it might be a 'Big Deal', but it might also be a way to finally make Marines feel worth their points cost if they can potentially shrug off small arms fire.

For how much they cost Camo Cloaks should definetely be -1 to hit agaisnt shooting.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I think 50 points rhinos would be insane. It would be worth it just to buy rhinos as LOS blocking terrain!

I tend to favour making things like vehicles stronger/tougher rather than making them cheaper; 50pt Rhinos brings us back to the golden days of 5e and walls of 35pt Rhinos stretching from one horizon to the other, rather than making it feel armoured and threatening. Give it its top-hatch fire points back so you don't cripple your early-game firepower by putting units into it and so your opponent can't just ignore it and it might fit 8th better.

True - at 74 points with a firepoint - it would be excellent.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I think 50 points rhinos would be insane. It would be worth it just to buy rhinos as LOS blocking terrain!

I tend to favour making things like vehicles stronger/tougher rather than making them cheaper; 50pt Rhinos brings us back to the golden days of 5e and walls of 35pt Rhinos stretching from one horizon to the other, rather than making it feel armoured and threatening. Give it its top-hatch fire points back so you don't cripple your early-game firepower by putting units into it and so your opponent can't just ignore it and it might fit 8th better.

True - at 74 points with a firepoint - it would be excellent.

Honestly I'd give both the Rhino and Chimera 2 fire points, because it just makes sense to me. That lets your special & combi-weapons for Marines, or your special & one other weapon for IG, fire out the top, but prevents IG from doing crazy shenanigans with 2 Special Weapon Teams with 6 special weapons or something like that from getting too nuts.

 Galas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Galas wrote:
How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...

Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.

Transports by their very nature should be cheap, in this edition they aren't. So why bring a transport? If a infantry squad requires it to do what they need to. Tau by their very nature don't need to be close. Breachers are the only thing that COULD use it and as far as I am aware they suck, because their efficiency is abysmal so why spend a transport's price tag on them? Especially a transport that gets a inflated price because of its combat abilities (also why I hate the landraider still it NEEDS to be cheaper).

Tac. Marines are similar. They have no business being close to the enemy, what are you gonna do? Charge them with tac. squads? A squad that will most likely cost MORE than the unit they are charging and fail to do any significant damage to (full squad will statistically get 6 HITS, not even wounds)? Shoot past the chaff with bolters? Intercept a enemy melee unit? You can do that on foot. A Rhino on its own is likely worth 70 points, but there is absolutely NOTHING worth putting in them.

Razorbacks

You see the problem there? Also Company veterans? You mean Sternguard w/ stormbolters? Ah the Old HQ Command Squad

No he means Company Veterans.

I'm not sure the Codex SM ones can get Storm Bolters and Chainswords, but apparently his DA (?) can.

 Primark G wrote:
A lot of the suggestions would just lead to people who play other races complaining they want it too for their troops.

With that mentality then no unit can have any special rules.

From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

 Primark G wrote:
From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

I really hope it doesn't, they need to look at some of the older models or finishing off the still index armies/factions whatever before releasing more like a marine but playable blahris marines

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No he means Company Veterans.

I'm not sure the Codex SM ones can get Storm Bolters and Chainswords, but apparently his DA (?) can.

Yeah, DA company veterans can get stormbolters+Chainswords. They are 18ppm. A little fragile but very good to clear chaff and hordes, and rerolling fails hits and wounds with the psychic power they can actually hold their ground agaisnt tougther targets. As I said, I use regularly both Razorbacks and Rhinos, but for different uses and units.

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

I really hope it doesn't, they need to look at some of the older models or finishing off the still index armies/factions whatever before releasing more like a marine but playable blahris marines

The writing is on the wall - Primaris is the future.

 Primark G wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

I really hope it doesn't, they need to look at some of the older models or finishing off the still index armies/factions whatever before releasing more like a marine but playable blahris marines

The writing is on the wall - Primaris is the future.

I agree with this, but they have a LONG way to go.

Codex SM ones can aswell, its a little un obvious but they can with a vet and vet sargent stat block every two models if MSU'd and they also come with the lookoutsir/bodyguard rule for the same base price as sternguard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primaris marines will either kill the marines as a line as most players are not going to replace 4 or 5k's worth of old marines quickly it would also mean every marine vehical would be obsolete as primaris can't use them.

GW probably does want to redo the entire marine lineup but with a weak codex and primaris only to be vaguely competitive, I would suspect most older marine players will just go to their other army make it their main and not bother with marines again.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

I really hope it doesn't, they need to look at some of the older models or finishing off the still index armies/factions whatever before releasing more like a marine but playable blahris marines

The writing is on the wall - Primaris is the future.

I agree with this, but they have a LONG way to go.

They'd have less of a long way to go if instead of insisting on the Primaris/normal divide they'd just said "These are the new Space Marines, they're compatible enough with preexisting arms for you to build extra special/heavy weapons out of your bits box, we're going to give you the squad organization you're expecting and give Marines slightly improved versions of all the special/heavy weapons (same way Intercessors have bolters with better range and AP-1 and Hellblasters have plasma guns with better range and better AP now)". And possibly did a sort of bigger Indomitus/Tartaros mk.2 Terminator armour and more normal jump packs instead of the fat blobby mess that is Gravus armour. They had the edition change and complete system overhaul to do an overhaul to what we expect Space Marine statlines to look like, and they kind of blew it.

As is the Marine Codex has a weirdly split personality where the units with the effective weapons want the Primaris statlines and the units with the Primaris statlines want the effective weapons, not to mention the problem where the Primaris vehicles don't have the cost-effectiveness of the normal Marine vehicles or the Invuls/FNPs of the Forge World vehicles behind them so they don't really do a lot.

A few arguments i've seen the last few pages that I'd like to respond to:

1) We can't buff tacs without them infringing on elite units.

Let's be honest here guys, sternguard aren't as bad off as tacs, but they're still not great. They aren't even a clear choice over intercessors (especially for BA.) I'm fine with the elite versions of MeQs getting buffed as well, and then increasing their points as needed.

2) Tacs cannot be balanced because of their weapon options.

I think this is just silly. This hasn't been a problem in previous editions. It certainly makes it tougher than if they didn't, but not undoable. In the past, the 10 man tac squad with a special and heavy has been a useful unit, even if not great. They weren't good on their own with just bolters, but that's okay. I also think a lot of this challenge could be avoided if we allowed tac special and heavy weapons to be priced differently again, like in the past. More importantly, we shouldn't settle for having an iconic unit become generic just because it's inconvenient to balance around. What's the point of space marines being space marines if we're just going to gut them over minor inconveniences?

3) If Tacs go down in price, they infringe on scouts.

This i agree with. These units need to get more useful, not cheaper.

I also think the points about the usefulness of Tacs being related to transports are good, although it doesn't apply to all MeQ statline units.

Some good suggestions too. I really like the idea of giving them bonuses for being 10 men strong. That could be discounts on weapons, transports, or bonuses to attack amount. Having hit rolls of 6 generate extra attacks for bolters and melee is a nice idea for 10 strong or not.

The system of taking more guys unlocking more special/heavy weapons already exists and is good. In the past it was worth buying the the extra 5 guys to get the extra weapon. Now it is not. This is partly due to the usefulness of the MeQ, but also largely to do with the cost of the special weapons, as those have mostly gone up in price and down in usefulness (except plasma.) So any changes to cost or discounts could go a long way here. We've already seen GW put in different costs of weapons for different units, so don't see any reason they can't do it here too.

I'm also a big fan of +1 CP for using 10 man MeQ squads.

Devastators are worth a mention as being in a different situation from Tacs/Assault/Vets. They are still useful. But they are useful because heavy weapons are good, not because their statline is good. If the MeQ statline or the bolter marines get a bit better, I don't think it'll break Devs. It may make them slightly more resistant to melee counters, which is probably fine. And it especially won't be a problem if the increase in strength is tied to 10 man units, as devs usually aren't taken at full strength.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
From what I have heard there will be some new stuff for Primaris which I am excited about and hope it happens.

I really hope it doesn't, they need to look at some of the older models or finishing off the still index armies/factions whatever before releasing more like a marine but playable blahris marines

The writing is on the wall - Primaris is the future.

I agree with this, but they have a LONG way to go.

It's a grey area at this point, but I think this is true. Give it time and Primaris will phase out all older SM kits. Once they start getting expanded upon and you can load up Intercessors with heavy weapons like Las Talons, Gatling Cannons, Macro Plasma Cannons etc to give much more unit diversity / flexibility and they will definitely start being used more often. A point decrease later down the track would also not be surprising, I can see the base cost for an intercessor dropping down to 15 points to begin the phase out. Give Inceptors the ability to take storm shields and power glaives etc and you have hard hitting melee units to replace vanguard units etc.

Only a matter of time until there is a terminator variant of Primaris, 2+ sv 3w with the ability to take gatling cannons and fists etc. No doubt there will be Primaris vehicles down the pipeline as well, specific Rhino's and speeders I could see happening as both of those kits are quite old (but have definitely stood the test of time as they haven't aged at all).

They've only just touched the surface with the Primaris range, and only a matter of time until they are proper faction.

Nice to see a slim glimmer of positive thoughts on Primaris here. It seems like more than 95% or even more of the focus is one why an army is the suck and what GW should do to fix it.

 Primark G wrote:
Nice to see a slim glimmer of positive thoughts on Primaris here. It seems like more than 95% or even more of the focus is one why an army is the suck and what GW should do to fix it.

The serious problems Primaris marine currently have are the lack of 1. Cheap Transports like Rhino or unique transport like Droppod. 2. shooty Weapon choices and 3. Fast dedicated melee unit. Of course, if the line expands, these can be solved.

 Primark G wrote:
Nice to see a slim glimmer of positive thoughts on Primaris here. It seems like more than 95% or even more of the focus is one why an army is the suck and what GW should do to fix it.

...You know that this entire thread is complaining about the non-Primaris infantry profiles, right?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No he means Company Veterans.

I'm not sure the Codex SM ones can get Storm Bolters and Chainswords, but apparently his DA (?) can.

Command Squads can do that. They're probably the best delivery platform for Storm Bolters. If they had access to Grav Cannons that's what I'd be infiltrating with Lias in lists with him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No he means Company Veterans.

I'm not sure the Codex SM ones can get Storm Bolters and Chainswords, but apparently his DA (?) can.

Command Squads can do that. They're probably the best delivery platform for Storm Bolters. If they had access to Grav Cannons that's what I'd be infiltrating with Lias in lists with him.

Addendum: Be aware that "Company Veterans" is what Codex: Space Marines calls the "Command Squad" now. (Not the Honour Guard, that's a different unit.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No he means Company Veterans.

I'm not sure the Codex SM ones can get Storm Bolters and Chainswords, but apparently his DA (?) can.

Command Squads can do that. They're probably the best delivery platform for Storm Bolters. If they had access to Grav Cannons that's what I'd be infiltrating with Lias in lists with him.

Addendum: Be aware that "Company Veterans" is what Codex: Space Marines calls the "Command Squad" now. (Not the Honour Guard, that's a different unit.)

I know it's their equivalent. Just letting them know as they didn't.

"The serious problems Primaris marine currently have are the lack of 1. Cheap Transports like Rhino or unique transport like Droppod. 2. shooty Weapon choices and 3. Fast dedicated melee unit. Of course, if the line expands, these can be solved."

This sums it up well what are the big challenges. Here are my counter points.

1) If you look at some of the most competitive builds they don’t have a lot of transports. The Ynnari Altioc build has two wave serpents to protect the Dark Reapers. Blood Angels aren’t using transports. CSM you see the Fire Raptor a lot now but it’s not a transport.

2) Hellblasters and plasma Inceptors are very hard hitting with good range. Plasma is one of the go to ranged weapons for the current meta. You don’t or even shouldn’t think you have to play pure Primaris units, which gives you access to other weapons like lascannons.

3) This is not possible but there’s no reason not to use another codex to fill in for these units.

 Primark G wrote:
"The serious problems Primaris marine currently have are the lack of 1. Cheap Transports like Rhino or unique transport like Droppod. 2. shooty Weapon choices and 3. Fast dedicated melee unit. Of course, if the line expands, these can be solved."

This sums it up well what are the big challenges. Here are my counter points.

1) If you look at some of the most competitive builds they don’t have a lot of transports. The Ynnari Altioc build has two wave serpents to protect the Dark Reapers. Blood Angels aren’t using transports. CSM you see the Fire Raptor a lot now but it’s not a transport.

2) Hellblasters and plasma Inceptors are very hard hitting with good range. Plasma is one of the go to ranged weapons for the current meta. You don’t or even shouldn’t think you have to play pure Primaris units, which gives you access to other weapons like lascannons.

3) This is not possible but there’s no reason not to use another codex to fill in for these units.

There's the issue of those units really not being that hard-hitting for the cost, on top of PAYING for melee stats.

Is the real problem that Scouts went from WS/BS 4+ to 3+ a while back?

Certainly something which dramatically impacted Tacs