Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galas wrote:

The problem with Black Templars, really, is that they are a meele sub-faction in a shooting Codex. Thats why they suffer so much for being rolled back in the Vanilla Marines Codex. They could be in much better possition fi they get mixed with Space Wolves as "Meele oriented Codex Deviant Chapters"

Or -a shockin idea- the Space Marine codex could have options for building an effective melee focused army! I mean melee focused chapter that are not Blood Angel succesors, Space Wolves or even Black Templars do in fact exist in the fluff!

Generally I feel that rolling variant marines in one codex is a good idea, if that is accompanied by increased flexibility and customisation. Just make most things available to all chapters, and then just let people choose what stuff they actually want to use. There really is no reason why Blood Angels are the only chapter who have librarian dreadnoughts or hand flamers (Salamanders would like those) or that Dark Angels cannot have Centurions etc.

Oh yeah, ideally all space marines would be in the same Codex with a ton of options all of them balanced.

In the other hand I don't think GW can do that, so the best option for them to make a viable space marine meele force would be having something like... a special Codex for a marine mele force, like Blood Angels. If I would to use a Meele based marine force, in 8th, right now, I would use the BA codex, even if my marines aren't by their fluff BA sucessors.

And I agree, with things like heavy flamers being open for everybody, etc...

 Galas wrote:
Oh yeah, ideally all space marines would be in the same Codex with a ton of options all of them balanced.

In the other hand I don't think GW can do that, so the best option for them to make a viable space marine meele force would be having something like... a special Codex for a marine mele force, like Blood Angels. If I would to use a Meele based marine force, in 8th, right now, I would use the BA codex, even if my marines aren't by their fluff BA sucessors.

And I agree, with things like heavy flamers being open for everybody, etc...

They were literally an option in 5th edition that disappeared for no good reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tacticals can already have 4 plasma guns per 10 models by simply taking two squads.

I really don't understand the desire for 2 Specials in a 10 man squad when the heavies only have a -1 hit mod when moving, and can be more effective than the specials anyways. The Grav Cannon is a fantastic weapon, even on the move, and a Plasma Cannon is largely just a Plasma Gun with much better range.

Because all those heavy weapons outside the Heavy Bolter are too expensive to really get a -1 to hit per shooting phase when you're constantly on the move (which seems to be their main purpose). Otherwise, you have Devastators to do camping with Heavy Weapons.

Want to know why Grey Hunters functioned even with all their nerfs in the 7th editiom codex (as necessary as they needed to be hit)? Part of it is the two special weapons in a squad that clearly wanted to be up close. If you have them heavy weapons you'd have only ever seen the Razorback configuration that was popular, but you definitely saw Rhinos and Pods for them.

The whole squad doesnt have to move the whole time, as long as the heavy stays put it's firing at full effect. The Grav Cannon even on the move has better damage output than a plasmagun most of the time, maybe all of the time. The extra points make sense when it can do double duty as a stationary defensive weapon with 4x the shots of a Plasmagun at 24". Easy purchase.

And again, if you really want 4 specials to ten guys, buy two squads with special+combi. The capability is already in the list options.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The whole squad doesnt have to move the whole time, as long as the heavy stays put it's firing at full effect. The Grav Cannon even on the move has better damage output than a plasmagun most of the time, maybe all of the time. The extra points make sense when it can do double duty as a stationary defensive weapon with 4x the shots of a Plasmagun at 24". Easy purchase.

And again, if you really want 4 specials to ten guys, buy two squads with special+combi. The capability is already in the list options.

Unfounately, unlike the last edition, the time that a Grav Cannons will outperform the plasma guns are when firing against the MEQ (T4 Sv3+) and TEQ or T9 Sv3+/2+. Against other tough units like MCs the Grav Cannon is no better. It is worth paying special notice that against T7/6 Sv3+ units, whuch are the currently scary stuff like Nidz / Daemon MCs, Dreadnoughts variant stuffs, the Grav Cannon have only around 45% chance of causing 2 wounds or more, but overcharge Plasma guns have more than 60% chances of achieve this.

So, it can be anticipated that the Gravcannon just made the environment of MEQs even worse in this edition, this weapons are only better against the units similar to themselves, instead of significantly buff their ability against MC (which was the meta of last edition) in the last edition.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The whole squad doesnt have to move the whole time, as long as the heavy stays put it's firing at full effect. The Grav Cannon even on the move has better damage output than a plasmagun most of the time, maybe all of the time. The extra points make sense when it can do double duty as a stationary defensive weapon with 4x the shots of a Plasmagun at 24". Easy purchase.

And again, if you really want 4 specials to ten guys, buy two squads with special+combi. The capability is already in the list options.

1. Which means the whole squad is hampered by not getting into range with their weapons as you can only space yourself so far. That begs the question of why not Devastators again?
2. The Grav Cannon is literally more than twice the cost of a Plasma Gun. That's 28 points to 26, and only outperforms in specific situations (which is basically outside 12") and then when you're in Rapid Fire (where a squad like Tacticals are supposed to be in order to increase damage output), 4 Plasma shots is better than 4 Grav shots. Especially when moving, where you like to take advantage of that Objective Secured you're so attached to.
3. We are discussing manners to actually make 10 man squads worth taking, and one of them is allowing specialization for the troops. The current, outdated template makes it so they cannot specialize and they now perform mediocre to below mediocre to BAD at any task, rather than JUST a few of them.
That's why I say to allow a weapon of any type at 5, 7, and 10.

Sure, tacticals are so bad you're on your third attempt at making a Sternguard squad that outperforms them for comparable cost.

If Grav Cannons are so bad, why do you put two of them on your Sternguard squads?

You're mistaking *being* flexible with "having lots of options".

And if you want to spam plasma on power armored dudes, you can already do it with: Devastators, Sternguard w/combi-weapons, Company Veterans, Hellblasters, Interceptors and even Bikes... or even Tactical Squads if you take two 5-man units.

10 man squads are great, they just take more thought than "spam weapon x".

Give Tacticals more board control by not letting units "Deep strike" within 12.

I have nothing to back this it's just a random thought

A rule specific to Tactical Marines, or all units?

Because only Tacticals would be kind of weird... what would the justification be? While applied to everyone doesn't boost the usefulness of Tacticals.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galas wrote:

The problem with Black Templars, really, is that they are a meele sub-faction in a shooting Codex. Thats why they suffer so much for being rolled back in the Vanilla Marines Codex. They could be in much better possition fi they get mixed with Space Wolves as "Meele oriented Codex Deviant Chapters"

Or -a shockin idea- the Space Marine codex could have options for building an effective melee focused army! I mean melee focused chapter that are not Blood Angel succesors, Space Wolves or even Black Templars do in fact exist in the fluff!

Generally I feel that rolling variant marines in one codex is a good idea, if that is accompanied by increased flexibility and customisation. Just make most things available to all chapters, and then just let people choose what stuff they actually want to use. There really is no reason why Blood Angels are the only chapter who have librarian dreadnoughts or hand flamers (Salamanders would like those) or that Dark Angels cannot have Centurions etc.

@galas The templars are not a pure melee faction. They are just marines with some cool characters and crusader squads. They still use bolters, predators and most marines shooting options. You can give them more chainswords than tac marines but you don't have to. So like other marines they use a healthy mix of melee and shooting, the one building the army have options for specialising them.

@crimson Yes great point! All marine armies should have proper ways to build melee focused. Chapter tactics aside though, are units like assult terminators, chaplains, vanguard veterans not considered good melee options? I wish assult marines were sightly better. And maybe regular sergeants should have 3 attacks to help the regular units with melee. They are supposed to be veteran sergeants after all, or at least have that upgrade option?

As a templar player, having a codex mostly annoyed me since I could not use scout bikers or whirlwind tanks even though I had the models (used them as regular marines first, then bought codex). Baking in blood angels would be nice. They could make baal predetor a universal marine unit as the land raider crusader has become. Hand flamer, heavy flamer and librarian dreads become regular options. sanguinary guard and death company gets to be the pure blood angels unit similar to crusader squads for BT. Keep the blood angel characters of course. Uniting in the marine subfactions would just increase options for army building, which I would consider good.

So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

Because when you put everything in one book you no longer need unique rules. At most you might have a single line for chapter tactics, but TBH even that isn't really needed. Marines are marines, their paint scheme shouldn't matter.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

Pros
We don't have to have repeated marine Dexes that clog the system and mean that other factions take so long or may not even get one.
We can have new stuff that reflect Chapters that are currently ignored - So Forgemaster Dreadnoughts, Sniper teams, The elite Salamander Termintators,
Less need for Flander units like Wulf Wulf Sleighs
More choice for all Marine players not just specific few,

The Imperial Guard are FAR more diverse than the Astartes - they currently have one dex - another dex with the more extreme stuff would be (IMO) more interesting than a entire Codex where the only addition to the Codex/ndexis a few Relics and maybe a new unit but likely not.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

Because when you put everything in one book you no longer need unique rules. At most you might have a single line for chapter tactics, but TBH even that isn't really needed. Marines are marines, their paint scheme shouldn't matter.

I don't feel the need for special rules for every paint scheme either. Why does ultras need to be different from imperial fist marines or salamanders? Unique story or favourite colour should help us choose the way we paint our minis, not arbitrary rules additions.

Gitdakka wrote:

I don't feel the need for special rules for every paint scheme either. Why does ultras need to be different from imperial fist marines or salamanders? Unique story or favourite colour should help us choose the way we paint our minis, not arbitrary rules additions.

Indeed. Most of the subfaction rules are just a pointless complications. And it always happens that some trait is just drastically better than the others and everyone has to use it or gimp themselves for the sake of the fluff. And unlike gear and units. these traits do not cost points, so there cannot even be an attempt to address balance via point fixes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sure, tacticals are so bad you're on your third attempt at making a Sternguard squad that outperforms them for comparable cost.

If Grav Cannons are so bad, why do you put two of them on your Sternguard squads?

You're mistaking *being* flexible with "having lots of options".

And if you want to spam plasma on power armored dudes, you can already do it with: Devastators, Sternguard w/combi-weapons, Company Veterans, Hellblasters, Interceptors and even Bikes... or even Tactical Squads if you take two 5-man units.

10 man squads are great, they just take more thought than "spam weapon x".

Grav Cannons aren't bad (as I don't plan to move the Sternguard much), but like any weapon redundancy is key. You need saturation. Want to know why armies with one of each unit do terribly? Same concept. If an element is removed, what's the back up?

So no, 10 man squads aren't good. Literally nobody else but you thinks so, which is why these threads always happen. There isn't thought behind them when they can't do a particular task, which is why the format needs to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

Because when you put everything in one book you no longer need unique rules. At most you might have a single line for chapter tactics, but TBH even that isn't really needed. Marines are marines, their paint scheme shouldn't matter.

This is mostly my thought, though I'm not as hardcore about removing rules. Line for each Chapter, 1-2 unique units, and bam you're done.
Now you don't need several books for Marines.

Hell, I'm for removing Renegades from the Chaos book and having the vanilla codex tackle it, as I don't think the Chaos book does it correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So people are opposed to having a separate Codex with unique rules but fine with unique rules in a unified book? What's the difference other than making the Vanilla book less easy to navigate?

Because when you put everything in one book you no longer need unique rules. At most you might have a single line for chapter tactics, but TBH even that isn't really needed. Marines are marines, their paint scheme shouldn't matter.

I don't feel the need for special rules for every paint scheme either. Why does ultras need to be different from imperial fist marines or salamanders? Unique story or favourite colour should help us choose the way we paint our minis, not arbitrary rules additions.

That said, what's stopping you from painting your Salamanders any color you feel like? Only a fluff bunny would be annoyed with your Vulkan stand-in being red.

Grav cannons don't need babysitters.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav cannons don't need babysitters.

This post is too vague. Cam you expand on it?

Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

It's not hard to get, though. Captains are cheap, even with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike into position.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

It's not hard to get, though. Captains are cheap, even with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike into position.

Yeah, I know, but BA captains have a tendency to wander off... I also might want to spread my units out to where I can't get everything next to the captain. There a lot of reasons to not want to have character dependence.

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

Most people try and get everything near a captain. If you can't, sometimes you take the risk.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

It's not hard to get, though. Captains are cheap, even with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike into position.

Yeah, I know, but BA captains have a tendency to wander off... I also might want to spread my units out to where I can't get everything next to the captain. There a lot of reasons to not want to have character dependence.

Oh no, you have better options than babysitting plasma! Whatever will you do?

Take a naked captain to babysit, and then a pimped-out captain for murder.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

Most people try and get everything near a captain. If you can't, sometimes you take the risk.

I don't do that necessarily. I also like the 24" range to reach beyond double tap range. It's usually a waste of time to shoot the unit being DoAed by the DC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

It's not hard to get, though. Captains are cheap, even with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike into position.

Yeah, I know, but BA captains have a tendency to wander off... I also might want to spread my units out to where I can't get everything next to the captain. There a lot of reasons to not want to have character dependence.

Oh no, you have better options than babysitting plasma! Whatever will you do?

Take a naked captain to babysit, and then a pimped-out captain for murder.

I don't like paying for marine characters if I don't have to.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

Most people try and get everything near a captain. If you can't, sometimes you take the risk.

I don't do that necessarily. I also like the 24" range to reach beyond double tap range. It's usually a waste of time to shoot the unit being DoAed by the DC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Overcharge plasma for marines needs access to an ability to reroll 1's. IG don't, but we aren't the chosen ones.

It's not hard to get, though. Captains are cheap, even with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike into position.

Yeah, I know, but BA captains have a tendency to wander off... I also might want to spread my units out to where I can't get everything next to the captain. There a lot of reasons to not want to have character dependence.

Oh no, you have better options than babysitting plasma! Whatever will you do?

Take a naked captain to babysit, and then a pimped-out captain for murder.

I don't like paying for marine characters if I don't have to.

The 24" range is neat, but once you're in double tap range for the rest of the stuff, it has less of a chance to keep up. That's why I've switched to the Storm Bolters as an experiment for the Sternguard drop I've got somewhere.

Smurfs have a strategem to reroll 1s.

 Primark G wrote:
Smurfs have a strategem to reroll 1s.

Why? You have captains, chapter masters, Bobby G...

And why would ONLY Ultras get that stratagem?

It also allows tacs and intercessors to reroll all hit rolls but IRCC it's shooting phase only. There is better ways to spend CP to achieve the same effect.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Smurfs have a strategem to reroll 1s.

Why? You have captains, chapter masters, Bobby G...

And why would ONLY Ultras get that stratagem?

You know points aren't infinite, don't you? Don't let the mathhammer blind you, Martel is right. Grav-Cannons have a ton of tactical flexibility that plasma guns don't have.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Smurfs have a strategem to reroll 1s.

Why? You have captains, chapter masters, Bobby G...

And why would ONLY Ultras get that stratagem?

Because a lot of the Strategems aren't good for the Chapters. Ask Iron Hands players how they feel about their special Strategem! Ask them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Smurfs have a strategem to reroll 1s.

Why? You have captains, chapter masters, Bobby G...

And why would ONLY Ultras get that stratagem?

You know points aren't infinite, don't you? Don't let the mathhammer blind you, Martel is right. Grav-Cannons have a ton of tactical flexibility that plasma guns don't have.

Which is mostly just the range to be honest.