Can the MeQ statline be saved?

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**Insectum7**

I think a Wyvern only nets about 4 GEQ kills. Not sure it's worth souping.

**Martel732**

Or mortar teams.

Yeah, wyvern only kills 3.5 guardsmen.

**Torga_DW**

I had a friend who was telling me the ultimate unit was called: brick. Hold it 12" above enemy unit, and drop. No saves possible.

Of course, i got banned from the official gw forums for suggesting something similar with phone books (when a lizardman player asked for help fighting necrons), so ymmv.

**Insectum7**

Scout bikes are interesting, unlike regular bikes each guy has a shotgun in addition to the twin boltguns, giving them 6 shots at 12".

**Martel732**

I don't own any, and at this point, I'd rather have point and click. 12" range sucks.

**Torga_DW**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't own any, and at this point, I'd rather have point and click. 12" range sucks.

Its all relative. They look better than 'regular' marine bikers, who can choose between tl-bolt guns *or* a pistol attack. Do you plan to alpha-strike with your tactical marines? May make a difference.

**Martel732**

No. I plan on never using tac marines once I soup in IG. Guardsmen and scouts only.

**Breng77**

Martel732 wrote:
If the faq doesn't change much, i'm giving up and souping in punishers and a wyvern. The screens must die and marines can't get it done.

They absolutely can get it done. The large problem is that doing so almost requires you to go first with a lot of builds that can do so.

**Martel732**

Needing first turn does not count to me.

**Formosa**

Martel732 wrote:
Needing first turn does not count to me.

7th it was possible to build for going second, not in 8th ed "alphahammer"

**Martel732**

Sure it is. I'm gonna soup in IG and make them take the alpha to the face. Because they are basically free and give up a meaningless amount of points.

**Marmatag**

For what it's worth, I elect to go second in almost every game as Tyranids by choice. But, I don't run a Flyrant spam list, so take that for what you want. Of course I always go first against artillery spam lists, because you kind of have to, as they don't need to think to have brutal alpha on your stuff.

People saying alpha is this big deal... I mean learn to play around it, i keep things in reserve not because i want to alpha, but to protect things. I run screens, and my screens are worse than yours Imperium & Chaos. So get over it. Take defensive units.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Marmatag wrote:
For what it's worth, I elect to go second in almost every game as Tyranids by choice. But, I don't run a Flyrant spam list, so take that for what you want. Of course I always go first against artillery spam lists, because you kind of have to, as they don't need to think to have brutal alpha on your stuff.

People saying alpha is this big deal... I mean learn to play around it, i keep things in reserve not because i want to alpha, but to protect things. I run screens, and my screens are worse than yours Imperium & Chaos. So get over it. Take defensive units.

I gotta ask long it took for "L2P" to come up in this thread. I don't think I remember it coming up but it usually does.

**Martel732**

By L2P, they just mean buy models that count as drops but don't cost actual points. Ie, guardsmen. Looking at what I can soup together, it's just silly. Given how few points I can start on the board with via soup, guardsmen really need to be 6 ppm imo.

**Xenomancers**

screens arent unbeatable ether. Sometimes they can be used against an opponent.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Are you suggesting that the rerolls on a 12 shot weapon make it comparable to something throwing out 40 shots?

0.888×0.96×0.83×12=8.49 GEQ casualties

0.5×0.666×0.666×40=8.87 GEQ casualties

Yeah, it's optimum rerolls, but that's pretty effin comparable.

As you already know, the SB Sternguard with rerolls get something like 18. So yeah, we got the tools.

That indicates a TLAC razorback need to take at least Marneus Calgar and a Lt. (around 270pts total) to be even close in firepower ONLY . . .

If you're unaware that you could upgrade your 80ish point Captain to a Chapter Master, sure.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I was going to say...

The point was Leman Russ Punisher is marginally more expensive but performs much better than Razorback.
Not,
Leman Russ Punisher is marginally more expensive but performs better than stationary Razorback, supported by not one, but two characters clocking in at least another 150 points.

I mean, it's not that many more points to upgrade the Punisher to Pask, and make it hit on 2's re-rollable...

No. The original point is that if a marine army has to kill GEQ, they can kill GEQ. It doesn't matter if another army has a super-tool or whatever. The marines can still bring effective tools.

. . .

I bring a Chapter Master and Lt. To every game, and my whole army benefits. Because they can simultaneously buff everybody do we say it's a 150(cost of characters)÷20(cost of Razorback is roughly 1/20th of the entire army) for the buffed Razorback? My thought process is that the characters are in my army anyways, so what can my unit choices do around them.

By that logic we can just assume guard have free points too since you don't want to include the points for the HQ dudes for whatever reason.

You can't just choose to ignore point values and math as you feel like. That's not how real life works.

I mean they didn't include rerolling 1s for standing still if they were Cadian either, and that's definitely one of the best traits.

**Marmatag**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
For what it's worth, I elect to go second in almost every game as Tyranids by choice. But, I don't run a Flyrant spam list, so take that for what you want. Of course I always go first against artillery spam lists, because you kind of have to, as they don't need to think to have brutal alpha on your stuff.

People saying alpha is this big deal... I mean learn to play around it, i keep things in reserve not because i want to alpha, but to protect things. I run screens, and my screens are worse than yours Imperium & Chaos. So get over it. Take defensive units.

I gotta ask long it took for "L2P" to come up in this thread. I don't think I remember it coming up but it usually does.

It's not L2P, it's just asking that you acknowledge you have access to the best stuff in the game to deny alpha, with no real overhead.

I'm all for saving the MEQ statline, but they will never be chaff.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Marmatag wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
For what it's worth, I elect to go second in almost every game as Tyranids by choice. But, I don't run a Flyrant spam list, so take that for what you want. Of course I always go first against artillery spam lists, because you kind of have to, as they don't need to think to have brutal alpha on your stuff.

People saying alpha is this big deal... I mean learn to play around it, i keep things in reserve not because i want to alpha, but to protect things. I run screens, and my screens are worse than yours Imperium & Chaos. So get over it. Take defensive units.

I gotta ask long it took for "L2P" to come up in this thread. I don't think I remember it coming up but it usually does.

It's not L2P, it's just asking that you acknowledge you have access to the best stuff in the game to deny alpha, with no real overhead.

I'm all for saving the MEQ statline, but they will never be chaff.

That's why I'm for actually buffing the Bolt weapon and actually reworking how several units work rather than JUST making Tactical Marines cheaper. I know it's more work to make a unit worth its points but I've got plenty of ideas swimming in my head.

**Martel732**

They need to be cheaper because cheaper is better in 8th. More capabilities is just more points lost on a failed save.

**Crimson**

As for the actual topic, I really don't think there is much of a point trying to save the old MEQ statline, and even GW seems to accept this. Just face the fact that Marines are now Primaris Marines and proceed from there.

**Insectum7**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Are you suggesting that the rerolls on a 12 shot weapon make it comparable to something throwing out 40 shots?

0.888×0.96×0.83×12=8.49 GEQ casualties

0.5×0.666×0.666×40=8.87 GEQ casualties

Yeah, it's optimum rerolls, but that's pretty effin comparable.

As you already know, the SB Sternguard with rerolls get something like 18. So yeah, we got the tools.

That indicates a TLAC razorback need to take at least Marneus Calgar and a Lt. (around 270pts total) to be even close in firepower ONLY . . .

If you're unaware that you could upgrade your 80ish point Captain to a Chapter Master, sure.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I was going to say...

The point was Leman Russ Punisher is marginally more expensive but performs much better than Razorback.
Not,
Leman Russ Punisher is marginally more expensive but performs better than stationary Razorback, supported by not one, but two characters clocking in at least another 150 points.

I mean, it's not that many more points to upgrade the Punisher to Pask, and make it hit on 2's re-rollable...

No. The original point is that if a marine army has to kill GEQ, they can kill GEQ. It doesn't matter if another army has a super-tool or whatever. The marines can still bring effective tools.

. . .

I bring a Chapter Master and Lt. To every game, and my whole army benefits. Because they can simultaneously buff everybody do we say it's a 150(cost of characters)÷20(cost of Razorback is roughly 1/20th of the entire army) for the buffed Razorback? My thought process is that the characters are in my army anyways, so what can my unit choices do around them.

By that logic we can just assume guard have free points too since you don't want to include the points for the HQ dudes for whatever reason.

You can't just choose to ignore point values and math as you feel like. That's not how real life works.

I mean they didn't include rerolling 1s for standing still if they were Cadian either, and that's definitely one of the best traits.

Hey man, it was your challenge, read it again. 12 razorback shots with rerolls can compare to the 40 shot punisher.

That is how "real life works". I take the CM and Lt in every game, so the question in terms of army context is what can I pair them with to solve a given problem. That's how the actual game is played.

**Marmatag**

Except you aren't factoring any buffs into the Guard side.

You can't say "i always bring a Captain and a Lieutenant" as a justification to have 150+ more points & 3CP spent on Marines, and then not do the equivalent for Guard.

For instance, the second you add relic of lost cadia into there, if the target becomes T4 chaos, the Punisher wrecks house compared to the razorback.

If we're adding in that kind of spend for Marines, it is only fair to do so for Guard as well.

**Primark G**

The Cpt and Lt are buffing other units so it is disingenuous to say those points are solely there for the razorback.

**Unit1126PLL**

Marmatag wrote:
Except you aren't factoring any buffs into the Guard side.

You can't say "i always bring a Captain and a Lieutenant" as a justification to have 150+ more points & 3CP spent on Marines, and then not do the equivalent for Guard.

For instance, the second you add relic of lost cadia into there, if the target becomes T4 chaos, the Punisher wrecks house compared to the razorback.

You're agreeing with him.

His point is literally that "the table situation and opponent affects the performance of your units, so if the table situation and opponent changes, your choices change."

Changing the target to T4 Chaos and adding a relic to an army list changes the game, and therefore changes the decision one might make. It's assuredly less useful to fire the Razorback at the T4 Chaos than it is to fire the Punisher at them, so you find a use for the razorback that is actually helpful (say, Chaos Cultists).

**Martel732**

Punisher cannon kills around 11 cultists and the razorback kills around 6 cultists if it doesn't move. I don't factor in buffs for basal unit efficacy.

**Marmatag**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Except you aren't factoring any buffs into the Guard side.

You can't say "i always bring a Captain and a Lieutenant" as a justification to have 150+ more points & 3CP spent on Marines, and then not do the equivalent for Guard.

For instance, the second you add relic of lost cadia into there, if the target becomes T4 chaos, the Punisher wrecks house compared to the razorback.

You're agreeing with him.

His point is literally that "the table situation and opponent affects the performance of your units, so if the table situation and opponent changes, your choices change."

Changing the target to T4 Chaos and adding a relic to an army list changes the game, and therefore changes the decision one might make. It's assuredly less useful to fire the Razorback at the T4 Chaos than it is to fire the Punisher at them, so you find a use for the razorback that is actually helpful (say, Chaos Cultists).

I think you need to re-read the thread.

He created a mathematical equivalence based a set of assumptions that gave a ton of buffs to the razorback and none to the punisher, then concluded they're the same in efficiency, with the justification that he always has those items in his marines list. Also, he didn't even math out the heavy bolter.

It's a bad argument. I do not agree with him.

**Primark G**

That is one good reason why mathammer is often meaningless.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Primark G wrote:
That is one good reason why mathammer is often meaningless.

No, it's a good reason why people who do not understand how mathematical assumptions work shouldn't use mathhammer.

**Dysartes**

Martel732 wrote:
By L2P, they just mean buy models that count as drops but don't cost actual points. Ie, guardsmen

You seriously need to dial the hyperbole back, Martel - and probably take a break from the game.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Except you aren't factoring any buffs into the Guard side.

You can't say "i always bring a Captain and a Lieutenant" as a justification to have 150+ more points & 3CP spent on Marines, and then not do the equivalent for Guard.

For instance, the second you add relic of lost cadia into there, if the target becomes T4 chaos, the Punisher wrecks house compared to the razorback.

You're agreeing with him.

His point is literally that "the table situation and opponent affects the performance of your units, so if the table situation and opponent changes, your choices change."

Changing the target to T4 Chaos and adding a relic to an army list changes the game, and therefore changes the decision one might make. It's assuredly less useful to fire the Razorback at the T4 Chaos than it is to fire the Punisher at them, so you find a use for the razorback that is actually helpful (say, Chaos Cultists).

I think you need to re-read the thread.

He created a mathematical equivalence based a set of assumptions that gave a ton of buffs to the razorback and none to the punisher, then concluded they're the same in efficiency, with the justification that he always has those items in his marines list. Also, he didn't even math out the heavy bolter.

It's a bad argument. I do not agree with him.

No that's not what I did, the math I posted answered a very specific challenge.

But, add in the heavy bolter for the punisher, and add in the re-roll 1s buff. Then add a Storm Bolter to the Razorback, and add in some amortized points for the CM and Lt buffs. (2000÷160 is 12.5) and I think, point for point, the two units will still be pretty close. Close enough to be 'comparable' tools for the job.