Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

By RAW, Counter-Offensive would override Paroxysm. I can see it being played otherwise (Counter-Offensive, for instance, just letting them fight normally instead of last) but that's not RAW. If you're worried about it coming up, talk with your opponent or TO before the game or tournament starts.

 Lance845 wrote:
Paroxysm doesn't target abilities. It targets units and has a stipulation about units with abilities that would create a contradiction issue with the rules.

You don't use paroxysm to shut own abilities (though you could I suppose). You use it to force an enemy unit into the least favorable position in the pecking order of the fight phase.

Agreed, but it would also shut down abilities.

In contrast, the Counter Offensives is exactly that, a COUNTER to the attacking player by allowing unit X to fight now, instead of in the "least favorable position in the pecking order" as you put it.

I would love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. And seeing as how TO's have already ruled on this, and the fact that every army has the Counter Offensive stratagem I don't see them ruling in favor of paroxsym.

Just seems a bit bull gak to have a fairly cheap stratagem not only negate the entire psychic power but also give you a boost.

Its not like you can paroxysm 3 different units a turn and then have 1 get buffed back up by the strat. Every army on a 1 for 1 can nagate the entire existance of that psychic power if your interpretation is correct.

Not that that has any baring on if your interpretation is correct or not. Just noting the outcome.

 Lance845 wrote:
Just seems a bit bull gak to have a fairly cheap stratagem not only negate the entire psychic power but also give you a boost.

Its not like you can paroxysm 3 different units a turn and then have 1 get buffed back up by the strat. Every army on a 1 for 1 can nagate the entire existance of that psychic power if your interpretation is correct.

Not that that has any baring on if your interpretation is correct or not. Just noting the outcome.

It's not like you can use Counter-Offensive on 3 different units either. Also, they burn command points which they don't get back (unless they have something that lets them) in order to do this, unlike getting to do use paroxysm every round.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Just seems a bit bull gak to have a fairly cheap stratagem not only negate the entire psychic power but also give you a boost.

Its not like you can paroxysm 3 different units a turn and then have 1 get buffed back up by the strat. Every army on a 1 for 1 can nagate the entire existance of that psychic power if your interpretation is correct.

Not that that has any baring on if your interpretation is correct or not. Just noting the outcome.

It's not like you can use Counter-Offensive on 3 different units either. Also, they burn command points which they don't get back (unless they have something that lets them) in order to do this, unlike getting to do use paroxysm every round.

Gee its too bad things that allow armys to regain cp or not spend them to begin with are so rare.

If CO didnt counter paroxysm you could STILL use CO on another unit.

Once paroxysm is counter by CO it has zero effect. Why ever give it to a unit to cast?

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Just seems a bit bull gak to have a fairly cheap stratagem not only negate the entire psychic power but also give you a boost.

Its not like you can paroxysm 3 different units a turn and then have 1 get buffed back up by the strat. Every army on a 1 for 1 can nagate the entire existance of that psychic power if your interpretation is correct.

Not that that has any baring on if your interpretation is correct or not. Just noting the outcome.

It's not like you can use Counter-Offensive on 3 different units either. Also, they burn command points which they don't get back (unless they have something that lets them) in order to do this, unlike getting to do use paroxysm every round.

Gee its too bad things that allow armys to regain cp or not spend them to begin with are so rare.

If CO didnt counter paroxysm you could STILL use CO on another unit.

Once paroxysm is counter by CO it has zero effect. Why ever give it to a unit to cast?

To keep them from spending the CP on things worse to your army than counter-offensive, perhaps. Or to wear down their CPs early on so that you don't worry about CO later in the game.

I always take this power even with the knowledge that people can pay to interrupt. It's not game breaking but it has its uses. Put it on something that you know will charge. You will get to fight twice guaranteed before they can fight back, on your turn.

But now we've descended into use cases.

It has been clearly argued & supported with rules that counter-offensive DOES indeed work despite paroxysm's wording. This thread can probably be closed. I'll keep my fingers crossed for an errata that changes this, because I play Tyranids and would love the boost, but I would be shocked if this plays out so that paroxysm prevents Counter-Offensive from working.

I suspect that if it gets FAQ'd they'll have CO and Paroxysm cancel each other out and the unit goes normally.

I personally haven't been convinced that you can use CO on a paroxysm'd unit.

The unit has to swing LAST after all other units so it obviously cannot swing next if there are still units that havent swung yet.

Of course i will defer to any TO's decision at tournaments I attent.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I personally haven't been convinced that you can use CO on a paroxysm'd unit.

The unit has to swing LAST after all other units so it obviously cannot swing next if there are still units that havent swung yet.

Of course i will defer to any TO's decision at tournaments I attent.

Yes, and normally you have to swing AFTER all chargers have swung. Counter Offensive overrules that.

Now, I could see an Errata (NOT an FAQ, since the RAW is different) saying that CO and Paroxysms just cancel each other out. That'd be reasonable-CO takes Command Points, but is guaranteed to go off, whereas Paroxysms just takes any random Nid psyker to cast it, but it can fail/be denied and cause wounds via a perils.

FAQs contradict RaW all the time (and often other FAQs), so an FAQ would work just as well.

They ruled on this in the March FAQ!

'Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power,
can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?'

A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every
other unit has done so.'


So, looks like I was wrong. I am happy about that as it looks like they ruled in favor of the Power. Win for nids.

 Dynas wrote:
They ruled on this in the March FAQ!

'Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power,
can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?'

A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every
other unit has done so.'


So, looks like I was wrong. I am happy about that as it looks like they ruled in favor of the Power. Win for nids.

Which is a strange way to justify it, since any non-charging unit is not eligible to go before any charging unit, but that still works.

Hate to say "I told you so" but I probably don't really hate it.