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Certain Armies are just built to be Soup AM, SoB, and GSC come to mind. You'd have to rebalance armies that have been designed as Soup armies and you'd need to release models for armies

Resipsa131 wrote:
Certain Armies are just built to be Soup AM, SoB, and GSC come to mind. You'd have to rebalance armies that have been designed as Soup armies and you'd need to release models for armies

Admech have a full codex of units and models - if only forgeworld wasn't holding on to half of them (and GW missing a few opportunities such as the admech landraider)

Resipsa131 wrote:
Certain Armies are just built to be Soup AM, SoB, and GSC come to mind. You'd have to rebalance armies that have been designed as Soup armies and you'd need to release models for armies

Why do you say Astra Militarum are designed as a soup army?
SoB have been a stand alone army from 2nd edition all be it an unloved and neglected one.
GSC codex will include leman Russes etc anyway as there are models for that so I can't see why they can't function as a stand-alone army.

The only current army that you could say this woukd affect would be assasins (not designed to be an army), Sisters of Silence (not a complete army yet) and Inquisition (never trust an inquisitor) so thats 2-3 relativly minor factions that may need a special rule. Grey knights are just supper busted and need a new codex to function as soup let alone as an army.

Ynarri and demons are the only tricky armies and ynarri need some serious work to make them.effective without being game breaking op as an army. And demons can get some god alignment rule.

A.T. wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Certain Armies are just built to be Soup AM, SoB, and GSC come to mind. You'd have to rebalance armies that have been designed as Soup armies and you'd need to release models for armies

Admech have a full codex of units and models - if only forgeworld wasn't holding on to half of them (and GW missing a few opportunities such as the admech landraider)

AND gave Skitarii a form of transportation and rebalanced FW traits...

Any bonus to mono-faction makes Guard and Eldar stronger than they already are. Before the reaper ascension Guard were the kings of 8th with essentially monofaction lists.

Souping should come with drawbacks. You gain access to the stratagems and relics of your most specific including faction, is a good example. Another better example would be you designate your army as a specific faction, and you only get CPs for pure detachments of this faction, and you can only have access to the designated stratagems of that faction. So you could still soup, but you just wouldn't get all the benefits of taking the best stuff out of a codex, stapling it on, and getting all of the tricks.

And they really need to clean up this keyword mess, or stop people from designating multiple faction keywords for the same unit (Ynnari Alaitoc, for instance).

Ice_can wrote:

But whats stopping a pure army taking 1 vanguard detachment and fitting its entire army into it or a brigade or battalion etc? Nothing that I can see. By keeping the cp system rewarding multiple detachments I can be mono codex and have say alitoc shooters and saim han outriders giving the bonuses I want for the different parts of the army and I gain CP as a bonus for min maxing. Untill that has a penalty you will always get soup. Battalions aren't the issue its being rewarded with CP's for min maxing thats really broken.

What's stopping me from running a Kill Team of 5 MEQs with double thunder hammers for 245 points? Nothing that I can see except that its horrendously inefficient and is fairly easy to kill with a quarter of the points. There's a difference between balance and protecting players from their own bad decisions. Particularly in this case where they're just willfully aligning stuff in the most inefficient way possible. That's like getting mad a Tetris because its hard to make lines when you don't rotate the blocks.

Also, fwiw, this same thread says Cadians and Catchacans combined aren't soup cause.... well, turns out the definition is pretty arbitrary and everyone has their own line. I draw it at a combined Ork/Space Marine army for what its worth. Your definition is more strict. I think part of the problem is certainly that space marines have taught us that color scheme = rules despite largley being the same models. Other factions seem a little more okay with the age old idea of custom color schemes and assigning rules based on battlefield roles. I personally think that makes the game better, but YMMV.


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 Marmatag wrote:

And they really need to clean up this keyword mess, or stop people from designating multiple faction keywords for the same unit (Ynnari Alaitoc, for instance).

This is the one big abuse I see in the system. It also seems to be the only example that works this way from what I've seen. I'd be happy to see it fixed.

Ice_can wrote:
SoB have been a stand alone army from 2nd edition all be it an unloved and neglected one.

SoB in 2nd edition got extra points to take allies. The foreword from the designer (in the codex) actually stated outright that in larger games an un-allied sororitas force would get wrecked due to a lack of heavy armour/artillery and psychic ability.
3e chapter approved sisters were the closest the came to stand alone. They lost a lot of stuff when they were crammed into the explicitly allies Witch Hunters book and they are still running the same units today, albeit without all the old wargear.

Though they would fold back in with the inquisition easily enough. Unlike the GK and Deathwatch they haven't been inflated out.

 LunarSol wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

But whats stopping a pure army taking 1 vanguard detachment and fitting its entire army into it or a brigade or battalion etc? Nothing that I can see. By keeping the cp system rewarding multiple detachments I can be mono codex and have say alitoc shooters and saim han outriders giving the bonuses I want for the different parts of the army and I gain CP as a bonus for min maxing. Untill that has a penalty you will always get soup. Battalions aren't the issue its being rewarded with CP's for min maxing thats really broken.

What's stopping me from running a Kill Team of 5 MEQs with double thunder hammers for 245 points? Nothing that I can see except that its horrendously inefficient and is fairly easy to kill with a quarter of the points. There's a difference between balance and protecting players from their own bad decisions. Particularly in this case where they're just willfully aligning stuff in the most inefficient way possible. That's like getting mad a Tetris because its hard to make lines when you don't rotate the blocks.

Also, fwiw, this same thread says Cadians and Catchacans combined aren't soup cause.... well, turns out the definition is pretty arbitrary and everyone has their own line. I draw it at a combined Ork/Space Marine army for what its worth. Your definition is more strict. I think part of the problem is certainly that space marines have taught us that color scheme = rules despite largley being the same models. Other factions seem a little more okay with the age old idea of custom color schemes and assigning rules based on battlefield roles. I personally think that makes the game better, but YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

And they really need to clean up this keyword mess, or stop people from designating multiple faction keywords for the same unit (Ynnari Alaitoc, for instance).

This is the one big abuse I see in the system. It also seems to be the only example that works this way from what I've seen. I'd be happy to see it fixed.

I don't have a problem with soup per say I have a real problem with rewarding people for min/maxing to get the best chapter tactic, regiment bonus and getting extra CP's aswell. Thats shocking short sighted game design.

By the same logic everyones cool if my mass marines suddendly becomes a darkangles spearhead with 3 hellblaster squads and azzrial, all my jump pack units become blood angles and my scouts just become iron hands ive now got a battlian and vangard and spearhead and the best rules for each set of units and as a nice bonus got 2 extra CP's over just running 1 chapter for everything.

Same goes for the mass cadian infantry only catachan tanks. Who cares they are clearly painted cadian and heck even have cadian painted on them. And you got bonus cps for that aswell.

GW stated the idea of CP's was to give players a bonus for not going full cheese monkey and yet they have built a system that actually rewards going full cheese monkey.

Personally, I don't really care. I think its more interesting that a space marine army is able to mix its options and give them the rules that support them enough to actually function than maintain some horribly dated dividing line. It would sure be nice if those sweet jump packs worked for anyone but blood angels after all. Again though, this is primarily the fault of the way Space Marines have been chopped up and sold as pieces of the same idea, largely defined by which small set of options they predominately spam. I will admit, mixing space marine rules.... irritates me more than other soup. I relish mixing marines and guard, for example, because it makes the marines seem properly super. Different marine types seems like an odd mix, though that's largely because chapters have been given so much more personality than hive fleets or craftworlds.

I really hope soup isn’t removed as I like the idea of buying and painting a variety of models that I can then theoretically use. I would happy take being less effective in game for the ability to do that however.

Perhaps

If all of your detachments match on 3 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, for example), each detachment provides 3 CP

If all of your detachments match on 2 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTERES, for example), each detachment provides 2 CP

If all of your detachments only match on 1 faction keyword (IMPERIAL, for example), each detachment provides 1 CP.

unlocking certain detachments (Supreme Command, for example) cost CPs (2, in this case), or may give bonus or multiply CPs (Brigade giving a x3 multiplier, for example). You should end up with similar CPs to what we have now, but soup lists will have slightly fewer CPs, but will probably make up for the loss with the army's flexibility).

(Although personally, I think the Battalion and Brigade should just be done away with)

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps

If all of your detachments match on 3 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, for example), each detachment provides 3 CP

If all of your detachments match on 2 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTERES, for example), each detachment provides 2 CP

If all of your detachments only match on 1 faction keyword (IMPERIAL, for example), each detachment provides 1 CP.

unlocking certain detachments (Supreme Command, for example) cost CPs (2, in this case), or may give bonus or multiply CPs (Brigade giving a x3 multiplier, for example). You should end up with similar CPs to what we have now, but soup lists will have slightly fewer CPs, but will probably make up for the loss with the army's flexibility).

(Although personally, I think the Battalion and Brigade should just be done away with)

I'd be ok with that I would keep the smallest one thats troops focused otherwise yiur punishing troop heavy armies though

 Marmatag wrote:
Any bonus to mono-faction makes Guard and Eldar stronger than they already are. Before the reaper ascension Guard were the kings of 8th with essentially monofaction lists.

Souping should come with drawbacks. You gain access to the stratagems and relics of your most specific including faction, is a good example. Another better example would be you designate your army as a specific faction, and you only get CPs for pure detachments of this faction, and you can only have access to the designated stratagems of that faction. So you could still soup, but you just wouldn't get all the benefits of taking the best stuff out of a codex, stapling it on, and getting all of the tricks.

And they really need to clean up this keyword mess, or stop people from designating multiple faction keywords for the same unit (Ynnari Alaitoc, for instance).

Not necessarily true, it depends on how you draw the line on those bonuses. A lot of power in some eldar lists is based on taking multiple factions from their book in different detachments. Guard can often do the same. Further many of those older guard lists were running Celestine which would break their ability to get the bonus. IT is not to say certain things wouldn't need balancing, but the argument cannot be well guard and eldar will dominate, because other armies cannot run guard and eldar as well as guard and eldar can.


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 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps

If all of your detachments match on 3 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, for example), each detachment provides 3 CP

If all of your detachments match on 2 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTERES, for example), each detachment provides 2 CP

If all of your detachments only match on 1 faction keyword (IMPERIAL, for example), each detachment provides 1 CP.

unlocking certain detachments (Supreme Command, for example) cost CPs (2, in this case), or may give bonus or multiply CPs (Brigade giving a x3 multiplier, for example). You should end up with similar CPs to what we have now, but soup lists will have slightly fewer CPs, but will probably make up for the loss with the army's flexibility).

(Although personally, I think the Battalion and Brigade should just be done away with)

Doesn't work as not all factions have 3 faction keywords. Essentially this is a buff for armies that can soup, but run mono vs say Orks or Tau who only have 2 faction keywords.

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps

If all of your detachments match on 3 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, for example), each detachment provides 3 CP

If all of your detachments match on 2 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTERES, for example), each detachment provides 2 CP

If all of your detachments only match on 1 faction keyword (IMPERIAL, for example), each detachment provides 1 CP.

unlocking certain detachments (Supreme Command, for example) cost CPs (2, in this case), or may give bonus or multiply CPs (Brigade giving a x3 multiplier, for example). You should end up with similar CPs to what we have now, but soup lists will have slightly fewer CPs, but will probably make up for the loss with the army's flexibility).

(Although personally, I think the Battalion and Brigade should just be done away with)

-6 CP for double soup is ridiculously punishing. It also basically demands 3 detachments, which for a number of factions is nearly impossible without soup.

Until the retcons that brought in all the nonsense like (IMO crappy looking) marine flyers the Astartes were supposed to get support from other branches of the Imperial War Machine- cos that's what it is a war machine made up of different elements that are specifically designed not to be able to do everything on their own. Although the Valkryie s a beautiful model again it caused the same issue as the Guard are not supposed to have Air and Void Support - that's the Navies job except for ultra rare Regiments.

The issue is that marines constantly swamped with codexes, new and often ever so slightly different models for their sub factions so other races and factions are neglected and hence are not able to cover all the bases that often they as stand alone armies should be able to do.

Arguably the ONLY Imperial army that should be able to do everything is the Ad Mech as they are quasi independent and carry out operations on their own as well as part of the Machine. They should have all the toys - but of course they don't because half of its doen by FW and the rest was half assed - can't be bothered with transports, on ground HQs or in fact all the stuff that appears in the novels Well it was that or make some more marines

Other stand alone Factions should be (with proper rules and model support):

Craftworlds Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Orks

Tau are a special case and again they use client races to cover their inherent gaps - but since they went all giant super robot rather than client races that's all been fethed up.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Until the retcons that brought in all the nonsense like (IMO crappy looking) marine flyers the Astartes were supposed to get support from other branches of the Imperial War Machine- cos that's what it is a war machine made up of different elements that are specifically designed not to be able to do everything on their own. Although the Valkryie s a beautiful model again it caused the same issue as the Guard are not supposed to have Air and Void Support - that's the Navies job except for ultra rare Regiments.

The issue is that marines constantly swamped with codexes, new and often ever so slightly different models for their sub factions so other races and factions are neglected and hence are not able to cover all the bases that often they as stand alone armies should be able to do.

Arguably the ONLY Imperial army that should be able to do everything is the Ad Mech as they are quasi independent and carry out operations on their own as well as part of the Machine. They should have all the toys - but of course they don't because half of its doen by FW and the rest was half assed - can't be bothered with transports, on ground HQs or in fact all the stuff that appears in the novels Well it was that or make some more marines

Other stand alone Factions should be (with proper rules and model support):

Craftworlds Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Orks

Tau are a special case and again they use client races to cover their inherent gaps - but since they went all giant super robot rather than client races that's all been fethed up.

To be fair, the Valkyries (and all flyers indeed) do have "Aeronautica Imperialis" instead of "Regiment", so it's pretty clear even mechanically that they do not fit into the Imperial Guard's regimental structure. They do have the Astra Militarum keyword though, so either the Aeronautica Imperialis is beneath the Astra Militarum's command structure, or they just decided they wanted the flyers to count as an Astra Militarum detachment and an Aeronautica Imperialis detachment, rather than making Aeronautica Imperialis its own faction with its own rules. That said, I think it'd be fun to have a "AI" faction; it would probably look like this: Imperium, Aeronautica Imperialis, <Battlefleet>.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps

If all of your detachments match on 3 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, for example), each detachment provides 3 CP

If all of your detachments match on 2 faction keywords (IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTERES, for example), each detachment provides 2 CP

If all of your detachments only match on 1 faction keyword (IMPERIAL, for example), each detachment provides 1 CP.

unlocking certain detachments (Supreme Command, for example) cost CPs (2, in this case), or may give bonus or multiply CPs (Brigade giving a x3 multiplier, for example). You should end up with similar CPs to what we have now, but soup lists will have slightly fewer CPs, but will probably make up for the loss with the army's flexibility).

(Although personally, I think the Battalion and Brigade should just be done away with)

-6 CP for double soup is ridiculously punishing. It also basically demands 3 detachments, which for a number of factions is nearly impossible without soup.

Yeah, I suppose its punishing - but that’s the idea. And are CP’s THAT game-changing anyway?

Also, It certainly does not demand 3 detachments. If you have a single patrol detachment that is IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, you get 3 CP because “all” (one) of your detachments has 3 “matching” keywords. If you somehow ran a Brigade, you’d get 9 CP for the above faction keywords.

I’d also suggest the non-human races getting a faction keyword XENOS, or somesuch to ensure you CAN have a 3-keyword pure faction. Tau will hopefully be getting <SEPT>, so they would have something like XENOS, T’AU, T’AU SEPT or maybe T’AU,FARSIGHT ENCLAVES, <SEPT> (Don’t know the Farsight enclaves offhand). Orks will hopefully be getting Clans and Necrons getting Dynasties, and so forth and so on.

Some forces like SoB or Custodes might need a faction grouping added, some way to mitigate a penalty (like, say, new unit models) or pehaps their strategms might be 1 CP cheaper (if they run pure?)

 Stormonu wrote:

Yeah, I suppose its punishing - but that’s the idea. And are CP’s THAT game-changing anyway?

Also, It certainly does not demand 3 detachments. If you have a single patrol detachment that is IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, you get 3 CP because “all” (one) of your detachments has 3 “matching” keywords. If you somehow ran a Brigade, you’d get 9 CP for the above faction keywords.

I’d also suggest the non-human races getting a faction keyword XENOS, or somesuch to ensure you CAN have a 3-keyword pure faction. Tau will hopefully be getting <SEPT>, so they would have something like XENOS, T’AU, T’AU SEPT or maybe T’AU,FARSIGHT ENCLAVES, <SEPT> (Don’t know the Farsight enclaves offhand). Orks will hopefully be getting Clans and Necrons getting Dynasties, and so forth and so on.

Some forces like SoB or Custodes might need a faction grouping added, some way to mitigate a penalty (like, say, new unit models) or pehaps their strategms might be 1 CP cheaper (if they run pure?)

CPs are pretty crucial when Strategems are added to the mix. -6 is halving your available choices. Under this system, adding Guard to 2 detachments of Ultramarines, you get 6 CP. If you add Blood Angels to those 2 detachments, you get 9. Why exactly? What are we rewarding and punishing here?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Yeah, I suppose its punishing - but that’s the idea. And are CP’s THAT game-changing anyway?

Also, It certainly does not demand 3 detachments. If you have a single patrol detachment that is IMPERIAL, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES, you get 3 CP because “all” (one) of your detachments has 3 “matching” keywords. If you somehow ran a Brigade, you’d get 9 CP for the above faction keywords.

I’d also suggest the non-human races getting a faction keyword XENOS, or somesuch to ensure you CAN have a 3-keyword pure faction. Tau will hopefully be getting <SEPT>, so they would have something like XENOS, T’AU, T’AU SEPT or maybe T’AU,FARSIGHT ENCLAVES, <SEPT> (Don’t know the Farsight enclaves offhand). Orks will hopefully be getting Clans and Necrons getting Dynasties, and so forth and so on.

Some forces like SoB or Custodes might need a faction grouping added, some way to mitigate a penalty (like, say, new unit models) or pehaps their strategms might be 1 CP cheaper (if they run pure?)

CPs are pretty crucial when Strategems are added to the mix. -6 is halving your available choices. Under this system, adding Guard to 2 detachments of Ultramarines, you get 6 CP. If you add Blood Angels to those 2 detachments, you get 9. Why exactly? What are we rewarding and punishing here?

I think you have it reversed...

A quick set of examples, using patrol detachments

Scenario 1

3x patrol of pure Ultramarines; 9 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES

Scenario 2

2x patrol of Ultramarines, 1x patrol of Blood Angels: 6 CP; matching factionsL IMPERIUM, ADEPTES ASTARES

Scenario 3

1x patrol Ultramarines, 1x patrol of Blood Angels, 1x patrol of IG (Cadia): 3 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM

And just for the sake of it:

3x brigade IG (Cadia); 27 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARIUM, CADIA

Vs.

2x brigade IG (Cadia), 1x patrol Ultramarines; 7 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM

 Marmatag wrote:
Any bonus to mono-faction makes Guard and Eldar stronger than they already are. Before the reaper ascension Guard were the kings of 8th with essentially monofaction lists.

Souping should come with drawbacks. You gain access to the stratagems and relics of your most specific including faction, is a good example. Another better example would be you designate your army as a specific faction, and you only get CPs for pure detachments of this faction, and you can only have access to the designated stratagems of that faction. So you could still soup, but you just wouldn't get all the benefits of taking the best stuff out of a codex, stapling it on, and getting all of the tricks.

And they really need to clean up this keyword mess, or stop people from designating multiple faction keywords for the same unit (Ynnari Alaitoc, for instance).

That is why I suggested a CP penalty rather than a bonus to 'pure' factions. Most games are decided by turn 2 maybe 3. Those CP expenditures are usually built into a soup list. Giving a stratagem or 2 more to the other side will rarely change the flow of a game. But if the soup lists have to squander or spare their few resources then the matter becomes more equal.

And not all units like Inquisitors or Assassins have to have a CP tax....some units could get an 'exemption' but spamming those units maybe would not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I used to play heroclix after I left 40K. At first it was fine.....I won most of my tournaments.
I rarely played a list that was NOT a comic book accurate theme team.
Then rules creep came and even if someone played a faction....so many models were under those factions or keywords that never showed in any comics.

I had no problem with players playing anything they wanted. I did have a problem with the rules giving the min maxing of anything goes a huge advantage over a team that should have been honed to an excellent fighting caliber as true super hero teammates...not a bunch of guys just slapped together.

I was known as that guy who could still win most of his games with old figures and such. Eventually it got stale as power creep exploded.

Same with soup lists. Can a well honed battle brother Marine Faction really be equaled by 3 different guard factions plus inquisitors from several Ordo + assassins, + SoB + Grey Knights + whatever.

It is nigh unthinkable that the latter could run as efficiently as the former....even if they DID have all the tools for the job.

That is why soup in any game needs to pay a tax.

I know no one really cares (other than those who actually want to play ynnari as a faction), but any proposed limitation or penalty to soup would overly screw ynnari unless you specified that having ynnari as your primary faction is exempt from any penalties.

If they actually release a ynnari codex with relics, warlord traits, and stratagems (which there really hasn't been any indication of) then I retract the above statement/objection.

 novaspike wrote:
I know no one really cares (other than those who actually want to play ynnari as a faction), but any proposed limitation or penalty to soup would overly screw ynnari unless you specified that having ynnari as your primary faction is exempt from any penalties.

If they actually release a ynnari codex with relics, warlord traits, and stratagems (which there really hasn't been any indication of) then I retract the above statement/objection.

Why would it screw ynnari, non of their abilities are CP driven and not sure how having you think having an all ynnari army would see you screwed you would be xeno, eldar,ynnarri so no worse off for CP's anyway. If you want to bring some craftworld for supper friends strategies you get punished like everyone else. As you are only xeno, eldar. No adding keywords nonsense, just one yanrri detachment, no supper friends and your not getting punished.

True, CP penalties wouldn't be a huge issue, but most of the above fixes restrict stratagems too. Ynnari have none beyond the basic BRB 3 and they only get access to anything else with a detachment. Hell, you can't even use a deepstrike stratagem without taking a craftworld or drukhai detachment.

In the same vein though, ynnari need CP to buy relics, so penalties hurt there a bit (though right now you can only buy for craftworld, but I think it's safe to assume you will be and to get drukhai and harli ones).

Ice_can wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Certain Armies are just built to be Soup AM, SoB, and GSC come to mind. You'd have to rebalance armies that have been designed as Soup armies and you'd need to release models for armies

Why do you say Astra Militarum are designed as a soup army?
SoB have been a stand alone army from 2nd edition all be it an unloved and neglected one.
GSC codex will include leman Russes etc anyway as there are models for that so I can't see why they can't function as a stand-alone army.

The only current army that you could say this woukd affect would be assasins (not designed to be an army), Sisters of Silence (not a complete army yet) and Inquisition (never trust an inquisitor) so thats 2-3 relativly minor factions that may need a special rule. Grey knights are just supper busted and need a new codex to function as soup let alone as an army.

Ynarri and demons are the only tricky armies and ynarri need some serious work to make them.effective without being game breaking op as an army. And demons can get some god alignment rule.

Most Imperium amries use AM infantry to fill their list, GW has responded by nerfing AM infantry and potentially nerfing the ppm for infantry while leaving the the other components of Imperium soup unmodified.

SOB are most efficient with taken in small numbers to capitalize on the limited number of Acts of Faith.

GSC only has Sentinels as fast attack, has no Flyers, Neopthytes are inferior to Infantry in filling the role of screens and objective secured, Cult LRBT will remain inferior to AM LRBT as long as they are unable to take Orders.

 Stormonu wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
[

CPs are pretty crucial when Strategems are added to the mix. -6 is halving your available choices. Under this system, adding Guard to 2 detachments of Ultramarines, you get 6 CP. If you add Blood Angels to those 2 detachments, you get 9. Why exactly? What are we rewarding and punishing here?

I think you have it reversed...

A quick set of examples, using patrol detachments

Scenario 1

3x patrol of pure Ultramarines; 9 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM, ADEPTES ASTARES, ULTRAMARINES

Scenario 2

2x patrol of Ultramarines, 1x patrol of Blood Angels: 6 CP; matching factionsL IMPERIUM, ADEPTES ASTARES

Scenario 3

1x patrol Ultramarines, 1x patrol of Blood Angels, 1x patrol of IG (Cadia): 3 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM

And just for the sake of it:

3x brigade IG (Cadia); 27 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARIUM, CADIA

Vs.

2x brigade IG (Cadia), 1x patrol Ultramarines; 7 CP; matching factions: IMPERIUM

Sorry, let me be clear;

Ultra/Ultra/Blood = +6 CP
Ultra/Ultra/Guard = +3 CP

To me, the latter is more in keeping with the fluff, but your rules punish it pretty severely. I'm not entirely sure why.

Drawing stricter faction lines doesn't make for more viable factions. Grey Knights don't get better by being faction pure in their maybe 2 detachments while Guard are able to pull further ahead by taking full advantage of the bonus. I don't see what you're really looking to accomplish here other than overly punish soup because you don't like it.

Resipsa131 wrote:

Most Imperium amries use AM infantry to fill their list, GW has responded by nerfing AM infantry and potentially nerfing the ppm for infantry while leaving the the other components of Imperium soup unmodified.

SOB are most efficient with taken in small numbers to capitalize on the limited number of Acts of Faith.

GSC only has Sentinels as fast attack, has no Flyers, Neopthytes are inferior to Infantry in filling the role of screens and objective secured, Cult LRBT will remain inferior to AM LRBT as long as they are unable to take Orders.

Which was why I say the mechanic that rewards souping in cheap things for CP's needs changed. So if you do go and play a full sisters army your not automatically getting punished for not min maxing like a WAAC dbag. Which was GW's stated aim for CP's. They just as well all know apparently suck at designing rules that work as intended.

A GC LRBT being worse than an AM one isn't a problem aslong as its pointed for its performance.

Ice_can wrote:
A GC LRBT being worse than an AM one isn't a problem aslong as its pointed for its performance.

So... the same, because Orders are not a facet of the AM LRBT but rather the AM tank commander, which has no direct counterpart to the Cult LRBT but is 45 points more expensive than either the AM LRBT or the GSC LRBT.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
A GC LRBT being worse than an AM one isn't a problem aslong as its pointed for its performance.

So... the same, because Orders are not a facet of the AM LRBT but rather the AM tank commander, which has no direct counterpart to the Cult LRBT but is 45 points more expensive than either the AM LRBT or the GSC LRBT.

In that case yeah probably though that probably says that the AM tank Commander is maybe a little light on points but this is wandering away from the point which was.

CP's are to reward player's for taking non WAAC lists which the current system just realy doesn't. It specifically rewards optimised list building for doctirins and strats and CP farming.

40K was supposed to be a tactical minitures game not an mathmatics exercise.

Personally I think if you want to kill soup lists (I actually don't mind them) all you need to do is base what stratagems, relics, and "chapter tactics" etc. on your warlord. Since you can only take one warlord you would be limited to his codex basically. You could bring other units from another codex, but would not get stratagems etc. That would really discourage the "soup" lists.

 xeen wrote:
Personally I think if you want to kill soup lists (I actually don't mind them) all you need to do is base what stratagems, relics, and "chapter tactics" etc. on your warlord. Since you can only take one warlord you would be limited to his codex basically. You could bring other units from another codex, but would not get stratagems etc. That would really discourage the "soup" lists.

The best way to kill soup lists is simply to make all factions and sub-factions broadly equal in effort spent on them and rules, then a) it would not matter and b) people could still make fluffy armies.

Sadly the Marine obsession makes this unlikely.