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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 03:59:53
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Dakka Veteran
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So I have a question that came up from tonights gaming session. We have this one friend who is THAT GUY and wants to mathhammer everything out but his grasp on the rules is generally a bit lackluster so we continually catch him messing up rules. This time however I feel like the rule could be read both ways.. so I'm wondering if anyone knows if GW has said anything official about this.
His bloodletter bomb consolidated into my thunderwolf cav after destroying the one and only unit they declared a charge against. He then used a CP to fight again immediately. I argued he couldn't attack them because he had consolidated into them and not declared a charge against them. Much like how when you pile into another unit you declared a charge against you can't use your attacks to target the one you didn't charge. Any opinions or even better, official rulings on this? I found nothing in the FAQs to be helpful.
Second question - Does this strategem override my ability to interrupt combat? I think it does from the way I read it but just wanted to make sure.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 04:13:06
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Units that charged during the turn can only make attacks against units that they charged. Other units can make attacks only if there's an enemy unit within 1" of them. In this case, he can use that stratagem to fight again, which will allow him to pile in and consolidate again, but will not allow him to make attacks against anyone that wasn't declare in the initial charge. This can be a very good reason to declare multiple targets of a charge, simply so that if you plan on using an ability or stratagem like this, you can continue to make more attacks.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 04:17:40
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Dakka Veteran
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Yarium wrote:Units that charged during the turn can only make attacks against units that they charged. Other units can make attacks only if there's an enemy unit within 1" of them. In this case, he can use that stratagem to fight again, which will allow him to pile in and consolidate again, but will not allow him to make attacks against anyone that wasn't declare in the initial charge. This can be a very good reason to declare multiple targets of a charge, simply so that if you plan on using an ability or stratagem like this, you can continue to make more attacks.
He was out of 12" range to declare a charge against the unit he consolidated into. So basically, he can't do what he did?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 04:26:08
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'll let someone else find the exact quote in the rules, but yeah, if a unit charged, it can only attack the people it declared a charge against. He can "fight again" to consolidate and pile in, but can't attack them.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 04:50:14
Subject: Re:Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Been Around the Block
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Exactly, although note that if he was in combat but didnt charge he can kill a unit and then consolidate and use the stratagem to attack another unit again.
In this case he couldnt because he didnt (and couldnt) declare the charge against the second unit.
There is also a discussion about if when you fail a charge against some targets but make the charge against another ones you can then attack the failed ones if you pile in into range... but thats another story
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 04:55:40
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Dakka Veteran
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Yarium wrote:I'll let someone else find the exact quote in the rules, but yeah, if a unit charged, it can only attack the people it declared a charge against. He can "fight again" to consolidate and pile in, but can't attack them.
I found what I couldn't find while I was rushed for time in the rules. It says it very explicitly at the bottom of the fight phase rules in step 3. Choosing a Target. A charging unit cannot attack a unit it didn't declare the charge on.
Grotsnik1 wrote:Exactly, although note that if he was in combat but didnt charge he can kill a unit and then consolidate and use the stratagem to attack another unit again.
In this case he couldnt because he didnt (and couldnt) declare the charge against the second unit.
There is also a discussion about if when you fail a charge against some targets but make the charge against another ones you can then attack the failed ones if you pile in into range... but thats another story
That's an interesting point Grotsnik! It does say specifically that a charging unit can't do it! I find that to be very reasonable and well balanced! Thanks for pointing that out.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/26 05:01:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 05:03:04
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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The quote is from page 182 of the rulebook, end of step 3 in the Fight phase rules:
"Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."
Given you cannot even declare a charge against units more than 12" away, unless using the Khorne Banner of Blood stratagem, yeah, nah, he can't do that.
For your second question, assuming you're referring to the Counter-offensive stratagem to interrupt combat, you could use it after he uses Frenetic Bloodlust provided the unit charged that turn, because Counter-offensive is used simply after a unit that charged the same turn has fought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 05:15:04
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Mr. Shine wrote:The quote is from page 182 of the rulebook, end of step 3 in the Fight phase rules:
"Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."
Given you cannot even declare a charge against units more than 12" away, unless using the Khorne Banner of Blood stratagem, yeah, nah, he can't do that.
For your second question, assuming you're referring to the Counter-offensive stratagem to interrupt combat, you could use it after he uses Frenetic Bloodlust provided the unit charged that turn, because Counter-offensive is used simply after a unit that charged the same turn has fought.
Even with Khorner Banner of blood (and eldar banshee, and blood angels stratagem, IIRC) you can't actually declare charge over 12". You can roll 3 dice, move all the way over to 18", but if the unit is more than 12" when it is time to charge you basically can never attack it in close combat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 05:20:10
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Dakka Veteran
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Thank you for affirming my literacy skills everyone and assuring that I am not crazy! lol
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/26 05:32:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/26 13:05:43
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Sinister Chaos Marine
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Don't beserkers do the same thing!? The strategm says fight again but sounds like he is trying to reset the phase or misconstrue consolidation with charging and focusing targets.
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BLACK LEGION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/27 17:50:10
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Dakka Veteran
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As a fun update to this thread. The individual in question turned into "that guy" and refused to admit he was wrong (I broached it politely, and with pics of the rule). He even made up a story of talking to the play testers saying he was right.
He has now told me to F off and won't talk to me. lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 03:12:52
Subject: Re:Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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lol
On another note, if you destroy the unit and you didn't charge, you cannot use a another fight phase stratagem if you destroyed the unit because they cannot activate for a fight phase (no one within 1")
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 05:26:17
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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There's also ambiguity in whether you need to have actually (successfully) charged or simply declared a charge against a unit in order to be able to target it/make close combat attacks against it.
Rulebook says, "Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."
And then a note/comment in the Designer's Commentary says, "Remember though that units that charged can only make close combat attacks against units that they declared the charge against".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 05:26:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/01 12:56:44
Subject: Bloodletter Consolidating Into Combat - fighting again?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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This is especially important because Bloodletters get +1 attack when they charge. The player is being doubly unfair if he's trying to apply the extra attack to a unit he didn't charge.
I am learning the big problem with Bloodletters is overkill. It's not hard to wipe out a 10 man squad when you come in with 60 attacks on the charge (esp with +1 strength for unit size.) Learning to position your Bloodletter bombs so that they can tie up multiple units is very important.
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