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I was wondering, for those of you who might be able to help me out here, if the following unit composition would work out ok, or if there'd be any (major) snags in joining them together...

Chaos Sorcerer, Bike, ML3 (telepathy), Sigil of Corruption
4-5 Chaos spawn with Mark of Nurgle

I've been somewhat out of the loop for a while... last games I played were at the start of 7th (which is what my friend and I agreed on to play still), and I was hoping I could field an HQ "spearhead" unit type like this one without any disadvantage in regards to their mixed rules, which I'm a little unclear on. For instance...

1 bikes "cannot run" but can choose to turbo boost, how does this work with the "beast" unit type's fleet of foot? Can the spawns even still use their own fleet?

2 As well, how would saving throws and wound allocation work during shooting and close combat? Especially if I were to use shrouded or invisibility psychic abilities on the unit from the telepathy discipline, while moving. Are there even mixed saving throws and mixed statistic rolls still at all, or am I thinking of old rules?

3 What potential advantages would a unit like this, if it does work?

4 Lastly, is there anything that could instead be done better... like say a jump pack on the sorc instead (I prefer the bike though for the 5 toughness, fitting both for the unit and fluff imo), or other psychic disciplines that could work as well or better?

Any help with this units rules would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

1. Unless the datasheet says otherwise, "Advancing" (Running is not part of the game anymore) is now during movement with M stat +d6. Most bike datasheets have the rule where they get M + 6" for advancing. So you will have to go slow with the bike.

2. They are two different units now. The character Sorcerer can not be targeted by shooting attacks during the shooting phase if something else is closer to the firing unit. Psychic powers are different now, you will want to read what they are in the codex.

3. A sorc that can not be targeted by shooting until a few spawn are gone, depending on the enemy positioning.

4. You will want to review the psychic powers to see if you even want to do this.

 Draco765 wrote:
1. Unless the datasheet says otherwise, "Advancing" (Running is not part of the game anymore) is now during movement with M stat +d6. Most bike datasheets have the rule where they get M + 6" for advancing. So you will have to go slow with the bike.

2. They are two different units now. The character Sorcerer can not be targeted by shooting attacks during the shooting phase if something else is closer to the firing unit. Psychic powers are different now, you will want to read what they are in the codex.

3. A sorc that can not be targeted by shooting until a few spawn are gone, depending on the enemy positioning.

4. You will want to review the psychic powers to see if you even want to do this.

Umm, just so we're clear... we're still talking about 7th edition rules here right? Cus I've never even heard of the "M" stat, or advancing, it's just called 'run'... and the 7th edition book states that run is done in place of shooting as D6. And I'm not sure what you mean by bike datasheets, the codex says to refer to the 7th edition rulebook for bikes unit type as a universal rule (maybe I forgot to mention I'm using 6th edition CSM).

Or am I completely misunderstanding some of what you're saying? Apologies if I am

Ahh.... hate to say this, but people in this forum are wholeheartedly in 8th edition rules now, so getting 7th edition rules clarifications in this forum is going to be hard for you

On that note:

1. This is true. Bikes cannot run, however if a bike joined a unit that runs and it turbo boost, your still allowed to boost but you must still keep in coherency (Within 3" of each other)

2. Shooting wounds are allocated to the first target, unless you do a sucessful "look out sir" roll to allocate the wound to the nearest unit to that model/unit. The mixed statistic rolls actually follow the majority principle, that is the majority stat in the unit (In this case T4) will be used for the woundings, however in the case of instant death, the individuals statistics are used. Saving throws are model by model, where fast dice are permitted.

3. The advantage is the unit itself can benefit from the universal rules of the character and the character can benefit from the units, unless the rule in question is a unit specific and is not covered in the universal rules.

4. As far as unit composition, stick with the bike. Telepathy is prob best discipline, especially if you can get invisibility.

IN the future though, most people will not help you because your playing an older edition. And 8th has re written all the rules.

mchammadad wrote:
Ahh.... hate to say this, but people in this forum are wholeheartedly in 8th edition rules now, so getting 7th edition rules clarifications in this forum is going to be hard for you

On that note:

1. This is true. Bikes cannot run, however if a bike joined a unit that runs and it turbo boost, your still allowed to boost but you must still keep in coherency (Within 3" of each other)

Awesome, exactly what I was hoping for. What about the fleet special rule though? Can the spawn use their fleet rule during runs (and charges), while the bike sorc does his turbo boost, and still be part of the same unit, so long as maintaining coherency?

The reason I ask is because the "fleet" special rule in 7th says "a unit comprised >entirely< of models with fleet, may choose to reroll fail run/charge dice, etc. Does this mean EVERYTHING in that unit, including the bike sorc, has to have fleet in order for the spawn to even use it at all, or that it's ok for the spawn to use fleet and biker to turbo boost?

2. Shooting wounds are allocated to the first target, unless you do a sucessful "look out sir" roll to allocate the wound to the nearest unit to that model/unit. The mixed statistic rolls actually follow the majority principle, that is the majority stat in the unit (In this case T4) will be used for the woundings, however in the case of instant death, the individuals statistics are used. Saving throws are model by model, where fast dice are permitted.

when you say in this case T4 as majority, what do you mean? Wouldn't chaos spawn with MoN be T6? Or did I completely miss something

And if in fact majority is T6, then a T4 or T5 sorc in that squad would be much safer, right? Almost makes me wonder if Jump pack would be better then to save a few points... only cus if he's already treated as T6, then there's no point in the extra points cost just for T5 on him... except during close combat, I guess? (possibly just nit picking here, plus bike is cooler and can move further overall lol.. and more safe from ID)

3. The advantage is the unit itself can benefit from the universal rules of the character and the character can benefit from the units, unless the rule in question is a unit specific and is not covered in the universal rules.

4. As far as unit composition, stick with the bike. Telepathy is prob best discipline, especially if you can get invisibility.

Yea, definitely seems to be the best way to go. And I feel like psychic shriek would absolutely fit this spearhead unit the best since it's gonna be charging first at units likely shooting at it from cover

IN the future though, most people will not help you because your playing an older edition. And 8th has re written all the rules.

Yea I had a feeling that might be the case, but I was counting there being a few people around who still remember the old way of playing though

If one model in the unit cannot charge, the whole unit cannot charge. If think that's what your asking? You can't turbo boost the bikes and still charge.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
If one model in the unit cannot charge, the whole unit cannot charge. If think that's what your asking? You can't turbo boost the bikes and still charge.

Nah I'm actually asking if the spawn can make use of "fleet" special rule for running, most specifically, while having a bike sorc in the unit. Because as I said, in the rulebook it says "if a unit consists 'entirely' of models with fleet, it may reroll runs/charges" does this mean that the unit is disqualified from using the fleet rule, since they're not technically "composed 'entirely' of models with fleet" and have one extra model, an IC, that doesn't have it, but instead has turbo boost.

For instance... the spawn roll run for 2 inches, reroll that to a 5 using fleet... the bike sorc moves 5 or 6 (using turbo boost, but not the full distance). all while maintaining coherency and being part of the same unit. Is this allowed?

The distances here actually irrelevant, and the real question is... can they still use fleet at all, being that they're technically not a unit made up >entirely< of models with the fleet special rule. or is that not what is meant by this rule's wording and I'm just reading entirely too much into it lol

Do I make any sense?

EDIT: Although yes it goes into charging as well... would the chaos spawn, on a charge, be able to use their fleet and reroll however many dice for that fleet charge reroll... while the sorcerer has to charge (after not having turbo boosted) on normal dice throws? Or would they again be disqualified from fleet period.

 Beerfiend wrote:

1 bikes "cannot run" but can choose to turbo boost, how does this work with the "beast" unit type's fleet of foot? Or does it at all?

2 As well, how would saving throws and wound allocation work during shooting and close combat? Especially if I were to use shrouded or invisibility psychic abilities on the unit from the telepathy discipline, while moving. Are there even mixed saving throws and mixed statistic rolls still at all, or am I thinking of old rules?

3 What potential advantages would a unit like this, if it does work?

4 Lastly, is there anything that could instead be done better... like say a jump pack on the sorc instead (I prefer the bike though for the 5 toughness, fitting both for the unit and fluff imo), or other psychic disciplines that could work as well or better?

Any help with this units rules would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

1) Boost yes, no fleet though.
2) Wounding majority T, then assigned to closest model. In h2h starting with b2b.

BTW I would recommend house ruling invisibility to fit with Horus Heresy. Rather than invisibility you have mind howl.

tneva82 wrote:


1) Boost yes, no fleet though.
2) Wounding majority T, then assigned to closest model. In h2h starting with b2b.

BTW I would recommend house ruling invisibility to fit with Horus Heresy. Rather than invisibility you have mind howl.

I'm actually asking specifically if the spawn can still use their own fleet, not if the sorcerer can. Not sure if this is what you meant in your reply

Also, not familiar with mind howl.. will have to look into that.

 Beerfiend wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


1) Boost yes, no fleet though.
2) Wounding majority T, then assigned to closest model. In h2h starting with b2b.

BTW I would recommend house ruling invisibility to fit with Horus Heresy. Rather than invisibility you have mind howl.

I'm actually asking specifically if the spawn can still use their own fleet, not if the sorcerer can. Not sure if this is what you meant in your reply

Also, not familiar with mind howl.. will have to look into that.

Well does "unit" consists of "entirely with models with fleet"? If there's non-fleet model there then no.

And the mind howl is basically WC2 and target enemy unit goes to WS1 BS1. So it's not 6+ to hit against entire army for one unit and template weapons aren't useless. Much more balanced than the old invisibility. It's spell on the new horus heresy rulebook that replaced invisibility and good riddance.

Unless a rule has a * or states that a "unit that has at least one model with this rule," then the entire unit must have the rule in order to benefit. Therefore, Spawn would lose their Fleet if they had a non-Fleet Character join them.

When a unit has mixed profiles, you can choose whether or not Turbo units Turbo, and whether the rest Run. The unit still doesn't shoot but it does mean that in the edgecase that a Bike Character joins a unit of Infantry that can Run&Assault, the unit can Run and Assault provided the Biker doesn't make a Turbo move.

Wounding is based on majority toughness, and wound *allocation* is "closest model first," with Characters able to shuffle wounds onto the next-closest model in their unit on a 2+ via Look Out Sir!

Losing Fleet is the main drawback to a mixed unit. Then again, Sorcerers are generally support instead of a beatstick. If you're feeling gutsy (read: Your opponent lacks indirect fire), it's occasionally ok to run a Bike Sorcerer without a unit, since you can move 12 in your Move Phase, cast powers in your Psychic Phase, then Turbo 12 in your Shooting Phase. I would recommend a Spell Familiar instead of a Sigil of Corruption, as the best defense is to not get hit, and rerolling Psychic tests will really stretch the mileage of your Warp Charge dice. Be careful if your opponent does tool up a bigger beatstick since you won't have any lackeys to accept a Challenge in your Sorcerer's stead.