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 Backspacehacker wrote:
You know what! Screw it, sure you wanna try using dakka Dakka on your flamers? Go for it, but you now need to roll all your hits, but 1s miss.

How so? It states you hit automatically, which means it hits regardless of what you roll. That doesn't mean you get to say "screw it" and still have 1's miss when the rule indicates that they don't.

Personally I go with the long precedent of GW taking "automatically hitting" to mean not rolling, but that's precedent built up over decades of Generally Accepted Practices without an indication that it has changed this edition. Previous editions they had Gets Hot! specifically requiring a roll even for weapons that hit automatically; this seemed to set a precedent for them to want to specify having to roll for other effects when you hit automatically, but they don't have that specification now in this edition so there isn't the specificity to cover how they handle it beyond "well, that's how they always did it". I can understand people wanting to have something official from GW from a RAW standpoint even though GAP had historically been to not roll.

But nothing says data card rules over write BRB rules. Would there for my interpretation is just as valid that BRB rules > specific rules. In order to get your extra attacks you need to roll 6+, but on a roll a 1 always fails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 181 of the BrB for shooting, "rolls of 1 always fail, regardless of modifiers" if your flamers "hit automatically" I can interprut that as a modification to the normal shooting rules, so even still a 1 fails.

I want to know honestly if all the people supporting this question really were already rolling hit dice for their flamers in all their games in this edition so far.


I can guess the answer.

Then I also want to know if they lift the toilet cover before they pee or if they just go for it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
But nothing says data card rules over write BRB rules. Would there for my interpretation is just as valid that BRB rules > specific rules. In order to get your extra attacks you need to roll 6+, but on a roll a 1 always fails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 181 of the BrB for shooting, "rolls of 1 always fail, regardless of modifiers" if your flamers "hit automatically" I can interprut that as a modification to the normal shooting rules, so even still a 1 fails.

I tacked an edit on my previous post while you were typing this.

I disagree that your interpretation is just as valid. There's a rule that indicates you hit regardless of what you roll, or that you don't roll. Either way, 1's do not misss. Your interpretation means you are ignoring "automatically hitting" entirely, which means your interpretation can not be as valid. The options are you either roll or don't roll, with the result being you hit regardless of the result on the roll. Rolling and missing on 1's is not supported at all, that's just you trying to house rule something.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
How about this from dictionary.com - having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently:
The hit is independent of the die rolls ergo the die rolls are not needed.

Or, also from dictionary.com- occurring spontaneously That is to say that the hits just happen with no intermediate event between rolling how many hits you get and the hits being applied to the target.

You're inserting those into the wrong part of the sentence.

Original:

This weapon automatically hits its target.

Let's add those definitions:

This weapon (having the capability of independently) hits its target.

You focused on independently so that's what I used here. Notice how the definition doesn't fit quite right in the sentence? That's the first clue it's the wrong one to use. That said, we can tweak it slightly so this reads better:

This weapon (independently) hits its target.

This is what I think you're reading it as, but that's incorrect as you've eliminated the vast majority of the definition to reach this point.

That said, even if you ran with it like this, "independently" means "free from outside influence" (such as 1's causing misses when you roll), "without outside help" (so ignoring modifiers) and "in a way that is not connected to another" (not connected to any other profile stats). So even in this cherry picked version it still doesn't tell you to skip an explicit command for the Shooting Phase.

I'm amazed you're trying to argue "occurs spontaneously" even applies.

This weapon (occurs spontaneously) hits its target.

It just doesn't work. Again if we twist it:

This weapon (spontaneously) hits its target.

That sentence means the weapon doesn't need player input. You don't choose to shoot your flamer, your flamer just shoots on its own! While a hilarious gameplay mechanic, I don't think anyone is arguing a player has to choose to shoot a flamer.

There's nothing about spontaneously, at all, to support an interpretation that it means "no intermediate event (particularly, other mandated steps)" as you're trying to put forth.

Page 181 "regardless of modifiers" the automatically hitting is a modification to the base to hit roll, if you roll to try and get 6" for extra hits, 1s will miss. You can't have cake and eat it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is absolutely 100% that guy level of rule bull gak. This is the kinda stuff that makes you a That guy.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The fact that this question has 5 pages of debate is a very worrying thing to me. Common sense is the one of the only two things I require my opponent to bring to the table. If they come to play and sincerely want to argue rolling redundant rolls on flamer weapons to get free 6's then I will thank them for wasting my time and I will be packing my models and putting them in the blacklist.

Last edition someone also tried to argue something similar with psychic scream. Before faq, since it was a wytchfire, it required a roll to hit, even if it did not have a weapon profile. So people were really trying to argue that yes, they need to roll to hit, but even if they miss, then they can still go on and resolve the power because hitting with the power was not relevant to the effect of the power. Yeap, really.

Ultimately, common sense is not something that can or should be allowed to be debated against. One should never have to argue or try to prove that a Saturday is indeed a Saturday and not a Monday, no matter how often the other party stubbornly demands a proof. It's upon the doubting party to acquire common sense before they even want to enter an argument.

Except common sense dictates that, if you're told to roll, you should roll unless something says otherwise. And nothing does.

In addition to that, it literally only affects Burna Boyz using a Stratagem and Stormtroopers with Flamers within 4". I hardly see the game-breaking potential of that.

Only you are not specifically told to roll in either of those cases. Yes the flamers don't say "Do not roll to hit" but they do not say "roll to hit" either. And being game breaking or not is irrelevant. As I said, I will not be arguing common sense.

The Shooting Phase has a mandatory requirement that you roll to hit. See earlier in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Page 181 "regardless of modifiers" the automatically hitting is a modification to the base to hit roll, if you roll to try and get 6" for extra hits, 1s will miss. You can't have cake and eat it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is absolutely 100% that guy level of rule bull gak. This is the kinda stuff that makes you a That guy.

Trying to play the game according to the rules as written by GW, who kind of invented and own it, does not make you a TFG.

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The fact that this question has 5 pages of debate is a very worrying thing to me. Common sense is the one of the only two things I require my opponent to bring to the table. If they come to play and sincerely want to argue rolling redundant rolls on flamer weapons to get free 6's then I will thank them for wasting my time and I will be packing my models and putting them in the blacklist.

Last edition someone also tried to argue something similar with psychic scream. Before faq, since it was a wytchfire, it required a roll to hit, even if it did not have a weapon profile. So people were really trying to argue that yes, they need to roll to hit, but even if they miss, then they can still go on and resolve the power because hitting with the power was not relevant to the effect of the power. Yeap, really.

Ultimately, common sense is not something that can or should be allowed to be debated against. One should never have to argue or try to prove that a Saturday is indeed a Saturday and not a Monday, no matter how often the other party stubbornly demands a proof. It's upon the doubting party to acquire common sense before they even want to enter an argument.

Except common sense dictates that, if you're told to roll, you should roll unless something says otherwise. And nothing does.

In addition to that, it literally only affects Burna Boyz using a Stratagem and Stormtroopers with Flamers within 4". I hardly see the game-breaking potential of that.

Only you are not specifically told to roll in either of those cases. Yes the flamers don't say "Do not roll to hit" but they do not say "roll to hit" either. And being game breaking or not is irrelevant. As I said, I will not be arguing common sense.

The Shooting Phase has a mandatory requirement that you roll to hit. See earlier in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I want you to answer me, honestly, if you, personally, have been rolling to hit rolls on your flamers and subsequently ignoring said rolls in your games before this argument ensued.

Trying to cheese the system by saying I can use my stratagem then roll to hit on a weapon that automatically hits getting extra attacks on 6+ and just ignoreing the 1s is a TFG move and if you can't see that, you really need to evaluate yourself as being a strong candidate for TFG.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Page 181 "regardless of modifiers" the automatically hitting is a modification to the base to hit roll, if you roll to try and get 6" for extra hits, 1s will miss. You can't have cake and eat it too.

This is absolutely 100% that guy level of rule bull gak. This is the kinda stuff that makes you a That guy.

That argument makes no sense at all.

 doctortom wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Page 181 "regardless of modifiers" the automatically hitting is a modification to the base to hit roll, if you roll to try and get 6" for extra hits, 1s will miss. You can't have cake and eat it too.

This is absolutely 100% that guy level of rule bull gak. This is the kinda stuff that makes you a That guy.

That argument makes no sense at all.

No it makes perfect sense, flamers have a modification to the rules that say, "this weapon automatically hits" if you wanna then roll to see if you can get 6+ to get an extra hit, then any rolls of a 1 will be a miss as rules state, any to hit roll of a one is a miss regardless of modification. It makes just as much sense as rolling to hit for 6+ for extra attacks and just conviniently ignoreing rules that don't benefit you.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The fact that this question has 5 pages of debate is a very worrying thing to me. Common sense is the one of the only two things I require my opponent to bring to the table. If they come to play and sincerely want to argue rolling redundant rolls on flamer weapons to get free 6's then I will thank them for wasting my time and I will be packing my models and putting them in the blacklist.

Last edition someone also tried to argue something similar with psychic scream. Before faq, since it was a wytchfire, it required a roll to hit, even if it did not have a weapon profile. So people were really trying to argue that yes, they need to roll to hit, but even if they miss, then they can still go on and resolve the power because hitting with the power was not relevant to the effect of the power. Yeap, really.

Ultimately, common sense is not something that can or should be allowed to be debated against. One should never have to argue or try to prove that a Saturday is indeed a Saturday and not a Monday, no matter how often the other party stubbornly demands a proof. It's upon the doubting party to acquire common sense before they even want to enter an argument.

Except common sense dictates that, if you're told to roll, you should roll unless something says otherwise. And nothing does.

In addition to that, it literally only affects Burna Boyz using a Stratagem and Stormtroopers with Flamers within 4". I hardly see the game-breaking potential of that.

Only you are not specifically told to roll in either of those cases. Yes the flamers don't say "Do not roll to hit" but they do not say "roll to hit" either. And being game breaking or not is irrelevant. As I said, I will not be arguing common sense.

The Shooting Phase has a mandatory requirement that you roll to hit. See earlier in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I want you to answer me, honestly, if you, personally, have been rolling to hit rolls on your flamers in your games before this argument ensued.

Wrong person. I only have 3 models in my entire collection that use flamers right now and they see almost no use (Imperial Knights/GMDK). That said, no one in this thread is objecting to fast dice or skipping procedures in the name of saving time (in fact, I think we even reference that in the first 2 or 3 pages), but what we're saying is that's not RAW. EDIT: I forgot Celestine's sword works like a flamer. I absolutely do roll it if something is effecting it or could make a difference, otherwise I skip it in the name of saving time. See below.

An example:

My opponent wants to move a single unit of 20 models. Do I make him measure the move range of every model (required by rules) or do I let him measure the furthest one then move the rest approximately in the same formation behind him to save time? I do the latter, but that's a mutual agreement to modify the rules made by the two players. Alternatively, do we make people roll morale checks they can't fail? The rules say we should, but I know I let me opponent skip it to save time.

Same thing with flamers. Are we supposed to roll? Yes. Do we skip it to save time when it won't change anything? I know I do.

Don't forget in 7th too, automatically hits weapons had to roll to see if they "Gets Hot" still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Page 181 "regardless of modifiers" the automatically hitting is a modification to the base to hit roll, if you roll to try and get 6" for extra hits, 1s will miss. You can't have cake and eat it too.

This is absolutely 100% that guy level of rule bull gak. This is the kinda stuff that makes you a That guy.

That argument makes no sense at all.

No it makes perfect sense, flamers have a modification to the rules that say, "this weapon automatically hits" if you wanna then roll to see if you can get 6+ to get an extra hit, then any rolls of a 1 will be a miss as rules state, any to hit roll of a one is a miss regardless of modification. It makes just as much sense as rolling to hit for 6+ for extra attacks and just conviniently ignoreing rules that don't benefit you.

As we've pointed out repeatedly (to still no rejoinder except Leo and Shine), automatically does not mean skip. You're confusing words.

I know it does not mean you skip the to hit roll, trust me I am in the boat that flamers work as they have since like ever, they automatically hit nonroll needed. But if your going to try and claim that oh well I'm.going to roll and utilize this rule that said 6+ gives me an extra hit, then you also need to acknowledge that rolls of 1 will always miss. As rules say "regardless of modification" a one will always miss.

You can't ignore rules that don't benefit you but then use the ones that do. That's not how that works.

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The fact that this question has 5 pages of debate is a very worrying thing to me. Common sense is the one of the only two things I require my opponent to bring to the table. If they come to play and sincerely want to argue rolling redundant rolls on flamer weapons to get free 6's then I will thank them for wasting my time and I will be packing my models and putting them in the blacklist.

Last edition someone also tried to argue something similar with psychic scream. Before faq, since it was a wytchfire, it required a roll to hit, even if it did not have a weapon profile. So people were really trying to argue that yes, they need to roll to hit, but even if they miss, then they can still go on and resolve the power because hitting with the power was not relevant to the effect of the power. Yeap, really.

Ultimately, common sense is not something that can or should be allowed to be debated against. One should never have to argue or try to prove that a Saturday is indeed a Saturday and not a Monday, no matter how often the other party stubbornly demands a proof. It's upon the doubting party to acquire common sense before they even want to enter an argument.

Except common sense dictates that, if you're told to roll, you should roll unless something says otherwise. And nothing does.

In addition to that, it literally only affects Burna Boyz using a Stratagem and Stormtroopers with Flamers within 4". I hardly see the game-breaking potential of that.

Only you are not specifically told to roll in either of those cases. Yes the flamers don't say "Do not roll to hit" but they do not say "roll to hit" either. And being game breaking or not is irrelevant. As I said, I will not be arguing common sense.

The Shooting Phase has a mandatory requirement that you roll to hit. See earlier in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I want you to answer me, honestly, if you, personally, have been rolling to hit rolls on your flamers in your games before this argument ensued.

Wrong person. I only have 3 models in my entire collection that use flamers right now and they see almost no use (Imperial Knights/GMDK). That said, no one in this thread is objecting to fast dice or skipping procedures in the name of saving time (in fact, I think we even reference that in the first 2 or 3 pages), but what we're saying is that's not RAW. EDIT: I forgot Celestine's sword works like a flamer. I absolutely do roll it if something is effecting it or could make a difference, otherwise I skip it in the name of saving time. See below.

An example:

My opponent wants to move a single unit of 20 models. Do I make him measure the move range of every model (required by rules) or do I let him measure the furthest one then move the rest approximately in the same formation behind him to save time? I do the latter, but that's a mutual agreement to modify the rules made by the two players. Alternatively, do we make people roll morale checks they can't fail? The rules say we should, but I know I let me opponent skip it to save time.

Same thing with flamers. Are we supposed to roll? Yes. Do we skip it to save time when it won't change anything? I know I do.

Don't forget in 7th too, automatically hits weapons had to roll to see if they "Gets Hot" still.

You are literally arguing both RAW and intention in the same sentence. You really can't have both. It's either one or the other. What I am discussing is common sense. The one everyone had in this edition when they just auto hit with their flamers, and the same one they suddenly lost when they read about this ridiculous suggestion.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I know it does not mean you skip the to hit roll, trust me I am in the boat that flamers work as they have since like ever, they automatically hit nonroll needed. But if your going to try and claim that oh well I'm.going to roll and utilize this rule that said 6+ gives me an extra hit, then you also need to acknowledge that rolls of 1 will always miss. As rules say "regardless of modification" a one will always miss.

You can't ignore rules that don't benefit you but then use the ones that do. That's not how that works.

We're ignoring nothing. Automatically hits tells us to ignore the 1'st rule. See prior pages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Audustum wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The fact that this question has 5 pages of debate is a very worrying thing to me. Common sense is the one of the only two things I require my opponent to bring to the table. If they come to play and sincerely want to argue rolling redundant rolls on flamer weapons to get free 6's then I will thank them for wasting my time and I will be packing my models and putting them in the blacklist.

Last edition someone also tried to argue something similar with psychic scream. Before faq, since it was a wytchfire, it required a roll to hit, even if it did not have a weapon profile. So people were really trying to argue that yes, they need to roll to hit, but even if they miss, then they can still go on and resolve the power because hitting with the power was not relevant to the effect of the power. Yeap, really.

Ultimately, common sense is not something that can or should be allowed to be debated against. One should never have to argue or try to prove that a Saturday is indeed a Saturday and not a Monday, no matter how often the other party stubbornly demands a proof. It's upon the doubting party to acquire common sense before they even want to enter an argument.

Except common sense dictates that, if you're told to roll, you should roll unless something says otherwise. And nothing does.

In addition to that, it literally only affects Burna Boyz using a Stratagem and Stormtroopers with Flamers within 4". I hardly see the game-breaking potential of that.

Only you are not specifically told to roll in either of those cases. Yes the flamers don't say "Do not roll to hit" but they do not say "roll to hit" either. And being game breaking or not is irrelevant. As I said, I will not be arguing common sense.

The Shooting Phase has a mandatory requirement that you roll to hit. See earlier in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I want you to answer me, honestly, if you, personally, have been rolling to hit rolls on your flamers in your games before this argument ensued.

Wrong person. I only have 3 models in my entire collection that use flamers right now and they see almost no use (Imperial Knights/GMDK). That said, no one in this thread is objecting to fast dice or skipping procedures in the name of saving time (in fact, I think we even reference that in the first 2 or 3 pages), but what we're saying is that's not RAW. EDIT: I forgot Celestine's sword works like a flamer. I absolutely do roll it if something is effecting it or could make a difference, otherwise I skip it in the name of saving time. See below.

An example:

My opponent wants to move a single unit of 20 models. Do I make him measure the move range of every model (required by rules) or do I let him measure the furthest one then move the rest approximately in the same formation behind him to save time? I do the latter, but that's a mutual agreement to modify the rules made by the two players. Alternatively, do we make people roll morale checks they can't fail? The rules say we should, but I know I let me opponent skip it to save time.

Same thing with flamers. Are we supposed to roll? Yes. Do we skip it to save time when it won't change anything? I know I do.

Don't forget in 7th too, automatically hits weapons had to roll to see if they "Gets Hot" still.

You are literally arguing both RAW and intention in the same sentence. You really can't have both. It's either one or the other. What I am discussing is common sense. The one everyone had in this edition when they just auto hit with their flamers, and the same one they suddenly lost when they read about this ridiculous suggestion.

Uh, no, I'm not arguing both in the same sentence. I think you're confused. I'm arguing RAW we always must. I'm acknowledging the reality that people skip things that don't matter to save time, but pointing out we technically have no permission to skip them.

My argument is simple: shooting phase commands us to roll (mandatory, not permissive). Automatically overrides 1's always missing due to its definition. Therefore, RAW, you must roll for all automatically hits weapons every time and hit even on a 1.

I'd you decide to ignore that 1s miss then you also have to ignore 6s give extra hits.

Because you can't ignore that the BRB explicitly says, "ignore all modifications" a 1 always, misses.

You can't have cake and eat it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly at this point I think it would be best if a mod just locked the thread because this is going no where.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I know it does not mean you skip the to hit roll, trust me I am in the boat that flamers work as they have since like ever, they automatically hit nonroll needed. But if your going to try and claim that oh well I'm.going to roll and utilize this rule that said 6+ gives me an extra hit, then you also need to acknowledge that rolls of 1 will always miss. As rules say "regardless of modification" a one will always miss.

You can't ignore rules that don't benefit you but then use the ones that do. That's not how that works.

You mean like telling your opponent that if he rolls 1's miss for automatically hitting because that benefits you when he has a rule that says it always hits?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'd you decide to ignore that 1s miss then you also have to ignore 6s give extra hits.

Because you can't ignore that the BRB explicitly says, "ignore all modifications" a 1 always, misses.

You can't have cake and eat it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly at this point I think it would be best if a mod just locked the thread because this is going no where.

You ignore 1's missing because the datasheet rule tells you. See the example of IK falling back and shooting. Nothing tells us to ignore the Stratagem though. I believe we had the "what is a modifier" discussion back around Pg. 3 already.

No need to lock the thread. It's on-topic and engaging. If it's bothering you though, then stop visiting it. We won't view it as a concession. Your mental sanity is more important than a toy soldier debate. (None of the smilies seem appropriate here but I was gonna post a friendly one).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'd you decide to ignore that 1s miss then you also have to ignore 6s give extra hits.

Because you can't ignore that the BRB explicitly says, "ignore all modifications" a 1 always, misses.

You can't have cake and eat it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly at this point I think it would be best if a mod just locked the thread because this is going no where.

"Automatically hits" overrides "1's miss". It doesn't say "automatically hit unless you roll a 1"

It says the flamer automatically hits its target, automatically doesn't tell you anything about skipping the rule of 1.

You're inferring that 1s hit based on the word "automatically," but that's just one favorable interpretation. Automatically could just as easily mean "regardless of ballistic skill," in which case, 1s would indeed miss.

When you start evaluating dice rolls to determine the number of hits, the roll stops being automatic. Whether that be because 6s generate an extra hit, or because 1s miss. They're two sides to the same coin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

"Automatically hits" overrides "1's miss". It doesn't say "automatically hit unless you roll a 1"

It does not override 1s miss, because automatic hits are not clearly defined. Automatic could just as easily mean "hits regardless of ballistic skill." Because automatic hits are not defined, you can't make this inference.

Of course this is all silly. Automatic hits mean you don't roll to hit.

And this does come off as supreme rules lawyering.

Next, we may as well have a discussion about how the game technically doesn't prohibit you from using a dice with 6s on all sides. Or let's have a chat about what rolling a dice means. Maybe rolling a dice just means nudging them gently while they're already on the table. Or perhaps we should discuss units being able to deploy, and act, while on the bottom side of the table. It's a good place to put your artillery.

 Marmatag wrote:
It says the flamer automatically hits its target, automatically doesn't tell you anything about skipping the rule of 1.

You're inferring that 1s hit based on the word "automatically," but that's just one favorable interpretation. Automatically could just as easily mean "regardless of ballistic skill," in which case, 1s would indeed miss.

When you start evaluating dice rolls to determine the number of hits, the roll stops being automatic. Whether that be because 6s generate an extra hit, or because 1s miss. They're two sides to the same coin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

"Automatically hits" overrides "1's miss". It doesn't say "automatically hit unless you roll a 1"

It does not override 1s miss, because automatic hits are not clearly defined. Automatic could just as easily mean "hits regardless of ballistic skill." Because automatic hits are not defined, you can't make this inference.

Of course this is all silly. Automatic hits mean you don't roll to hit.

And this does come off as supreme rules lawyering.

Next, we may as well have a discussion about how the game technically doesn't prohibit you from using a dice with 6s on all sides. Or let's have a chat about what rolling a dice means. Maybe rolling a dice just means nudging them gently while they're already on the table. Or perhaps we should discuss units being able to deploy, and act, while on the bottom side of the table. It's a good place to put your artillery.

You are still back on page 4 or so. There is NO definition of automatically that allows a skipping of rolling. There are only definitions that make the hits happen. It's not one charitable definition, it's the only one.

Further, the rule doesn't say the rolls are automatic. It says the HITS are. You are equating these as the same thing without a basis to do so.

I like your posts, but that last part is pure hyperbole. We have two rolls here commanding a result, unlike your examples. To shout and plug your ears in the face of that is pure HYWPI, not RAW.

Just to throw this out there as I'm interested to see what people say, but would you say you can generate extra hits on a 6 against -1 to hit units?

Ice_can wrote:
Just to throw this out there as I'm interested to see what people say, but would you say you can generate extra hits on a 6 against -1 to hit units?

Of course not. The hit roll would be 6-1=5. It would then hit, regardless of the number rolled and modifiers present, since that's what the rules tell you to do, but you would NOT generate extra hits.

 Marmatag wrote:
It says the flamer automatically hits its target, automatically doesn't tell you anything about skipping the rule of 1.

You're inferring that 1s hit based on the word "automatically," but that's just one favorable interpretation. Automatically could just as easily mean "regardless of ballistic skill," in which case, 1s would indeed miss.

If you miss when you roll a 1, you're not hitting "automatically" whichever way you want to infer the definition. If you hit "regardless of ballistic skill", you still hit on a one, otherwise you're not hitting automatically.


When you start evaluating dice rolls to determine the number of hits, the roll stops being automatic. Whether that be because 6s generate an extra hit, or because 1s miss. They're two sides to the same coin.

Well this thread was a bit of a slog.

There is an elegant solution to things like this with a simple errata of adding the rule like they have in WMH.

If you're fighting a model that is knocked down in melee you automatically hit; HOWEVER, if you wish to trigger a critical effect (2 or more of the same result on the hit dice) then you may opt to roll to hit, but also run the risk of missing.

GW could easily do the same and say you can roll to hit with weapons that hit automatically if you wish to attempt to get those triggers but you can also miss at the same time.

Or its an automatic result not an automactic action problem solved

Audustum wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exactly. You do not have permission not to roll.

Except where it says hits automatically. That is the over-ride for the roll.

If it weren't we would have 2 rules in play if we rolled for auto hit weapons. One being hits automatically the other being always misses on a 1. ALWAYS... Therefore we cant make to hit rolls because if we roll a 1 they no longer auto hit as 1's ALWAYS miss...

On the one hand you say automatically overrides the Shooting Phase command that you MUST roll.

On the other hand, you say that a rule cannot override the shooting phase rule that 1's always miss.

Do you realize how contradictory that position is?

Anyway, please see the previous pages. There is no definition of 'autonatically' that tells you to skip or ignore rolling. It DOES, however, mean the result is predetermined. So 'automatically' is telling to override the 1's always miss rule and not giving permission to skip rolling.

It is not contradictory. (Notice the "If it weren't", meaning that if the procedure is not an over-ride for the roll....Meaning it says hit automatically and you do not roll to hit).

Hitting automatically would have to include making zero rolls to hit otherwise the game breaks if you roll any 1's as you would have something saying that this particular roll always misses and another thing saying that it always hits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exactly. You do not have permission not to roll.

Except where it says hits automatically. That is the over-ride for the roll.

If it weren't we would have 2 rules in play if we rolled for auto hit weapons. One being hits automatically the other being always misses on a 1. ALWAYS... Therefore we cant make to hit rolls because if we roll a 1 they no longer auto hit as 1's ALWAYS miss...

On the one hand you say automatically overrides the Shooting Phase command that you MUST roll.

On the other hand, you say that a rule cannot override the shooting phase rule that 1's always miss.

Do you realize how contradictory that position is?

Anyway, please see the previous pages. There is no definition of 'autonatically' that tells you to skip or ignore rolling. It DOES, however, mean the result is predetermined. So 'automatically' is telling to override the 1's always miss rule and not giving permission to skip rolling.

It is not contradictory. (Notice the "If it weren't", meaning that if the procedure is not an over-ride for the roll....Meaning it says hit automatically and you do not roll to hit).

Hitting automatically would have to include making zero rolls to hit otherwise the game breaks if you roll any 1's as you would have something saying that this particular roll always misses and another thing saying that it always hits.

Then by that same token doesn't the game break if you use any weapons that hit automatically because the main book says you have to roll dice and the interpretation you're using for automatically hitting says you don't roll the dice?

Doctortom nailed it.

It doesn't break though. the two rules work just fine with each other. Data sheets over ride basic rules.