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Perhaps it’s time to seriously think about boycotting the World Cup this year.

I was thinking that too.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, it is worth considering the possibility that someone wants to stir up trouble between the UK and Russia, and set up an operation that looks like a Russian secret service job.

I saw this article on the BBC come by today and all I could think was really.... really???? Takes some amazing commitment not only to stab 'yourself' to death but use two knives while doing so..

Emphasis on this part:

Among the other deaths flagged to the home secretary on Tuesday are those of Gareth Williams, the so-called "spy in the bag", whose badly decomposed body was found locked inside a holdall in his bath; Dr Matthew Puncher, a British scientist involved in the Litvinenko case who was found in his kitchen with multiple stab wounds from two separate knives; and Scot Young, a business associate of Berezovsky, who was found impaled on railings outside his London flat after falling from a fourth-floor window.

Williams' death was ruled to be "probably an accident" and Puncher's and Young's both suicides, and British police say they have found no evidence of Russian involvement in any of the cases barring Litvinenko's.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43299598

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to seriously think about boycotting the World Cup this year.

That works only if there is a lot of countries doing it. If it is just the UK who boycots the World Cup, then the only thing that will accomplish is the UK locking itself out of the world's most prestigious football tournament while people in Russia and a the World Cup will barely notice one country less.

 sebster wrote:

But, there's been multiple investigations, and every one of them was particularly bullish on Russia being behind this. Then on top of all of that a couple of years ago US intelligence, I think the NSA but its hard to remember all the various US intel agencies, was reported to have recordings between Russian officials in Moscow which outright stated that Russia ordered the murder because Litvinenko was dishing dirt on Putin's organized crime links.

His organised crime links? That is interesting, considering that is a public secret anyway. Every official and bureaucrat in Russia has organised crime links. Russian mafia and Russian government are very much interconnected. Hell, even I know people in that environment. There is just no way you can be involved with the government and not be involved with the mafia. It usually is the same people, especially here abroad.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I saw this article on the BBC come by today and all I could think was really.... really???? Takes some amazing commitment not only to stab 'yourself' to death but use two knives while doing so..

Emphasis on this part:

Among the other deaths flagged to the home secretary on Tuesday are those of Gareth Williams, the so-called "spy in the bag", whose badly decomposed body was found locked inside a holdall in his bath; Dr Matthew Puncher, a British scientist involved in the Litvinenko case who was found in his kitchen with multiple stab wounds from two separate knives; and Scot Young, a business associate of Berezovsky, who was found impaled on railings outside his London flat after falling from a fourth-floor window.

Williams' death was ruled to be "probably an accident" and Puncher's and Young's both suicides, and British police say they have found no evidence of Russian involvement in any of the cases barring Litvinenko's.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43299598

"This is called a story. And we are not here to tell stories. We are here to tell the truth. Understand?"

 Iron_Captain wrote:
His organised crime links? That is interesting, considering that is a public secret anyway. Every official and bureaucrat in Russia has organised crime links. Russian mafia and Russian government are very much interconnected. Hell, even I know people in that environment. There is just no way you can be involved with the government and not be involved with the mafia. It usually is the same people, especially here abroad.

Its one thing for people to know you have connections to criminal operations, its quite another for someone to describe them in detail them to a foreign government.

Seems they were poisoned with a nerve agent, though the exact agent has not been released to the news at this point in time.

A number of places are now (unofficially) saying it was Sarin,

which is fairly straightforward to make (even if it is scary dangerous) which probably expands the suspect pool

It was used by a doomsday cult a couple of attacks in Tokyo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
A number of places are now (unofficially) saying it was Sarin,

which is fairly straightforward to make (even if it is scary dangerous) which probably expands the suspect pool

It was used by a doomsday cult a couple of attacks in Tokyo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

The BBC article on it is saying that they were told it was probably not Sarin and not VX.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734

Sarin isn't easy to make at home.

Realistically the most likely perpetrator to use a nerve agent is a "state actor". This could be the Russian secret service acting under Putin's instructions, or some Russian agents freelancing it for themselves or for someone else, or it could be as I mentioned earlier a 3rd party wanting to stir up trouble.

I don't regard this last idea is the most likely explanation, if only because there is already enough hassle between the UK and Russia and there isn't much more that can be introduced into the equation, so it's hard to see who would gain.

Remember that doomsday cult in Japan that made and used, very poorly, sarin nerve gas? They made it successfully but their aeorsol dispersal system failed beautifully, saving hundreds or more lives.

Aum Shinrikyo wasn't a spare bedroom kind of doomsday cult. It had a lot of money and space, and a lot of members including chemists.

What I mean is, pretty much any university chemistry deparment could assemble a number of different explosives and poisons including nerve gas, and so could any other organisation capable of getting the money and personnel to build the labs and so on.

That isn't the level of me and my dad working up gunpowder and fulminate of mercury for our back garden wargames, like we did in the 1970s.

If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Aum Shinrikyo wasn't a spare bedroom kind of doomsday cult. It had a lot of money and space, and a lot of members including chemists.

What I mean is, pretty much any university chemistry deparment could assemble a number of different explosives and poisons including nerve gas, and so could any other organisation capable of getting the money and personnel to build the labs and so on.

That isn't the level of me and my dad working up gunpowder and fulminate of mercury for our back garden wargames, like we did in the 1970s.

Looking at what police fund and stopped, they manurfactured 3 kinds of chemical weapons, in volumes to kill thousands, had multiple cult facilities and compounds. they had a mi17 helicopter, Dugs, millions of dollers in cash, gold and drugs ready for potential sale. a cell block, with prisoners,

From wiki page above

here were stockpiles of chemicals that could be used for producing enough sarin to kill four million people

According to a June 2005 report by the National Police Agency, Aleph had approximately 1,650 members, of whom 650 lived communally in compounds.[1] The group operated 26 facilities in 17 prefectures, and about 120 residential facilities. An article in the Mainichi Shimbun newspaper on 11 September 2002 showed that the Japanese public still distrusts Aleph, and compounds are usually surrounded by protest banners from local residents.

They had scales, potential resources, and precursor chemicals to outfit a 3rd world chemical warfare programme. they where not exactly a few people in a back bedroom fitted out as small lab

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

I came here to post this. And to remark how much of this sounds like it could be Imperium propaganda.

"The profession of a traitor is one of the most dangerous in the world," Kleimenov said, adding that few who had chosen it had lived to a ripe old age. Alcoholism, drug addiction, stress and depression resulting in heart attacks and even suicide were the "professional illnesses of a traitor"

Herbington wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

I came here to post this. And to remark how much of this sounds like it could be Imperium propaganda.

"The profession of a traitor is one of the most dangerous in the world," Kleimenov said, adding that few who had chosen it had lived to a ripe old age. Alcoholism, drug addiction, stress and depression resulting in heart attacks and even suicide were the "professional illnesses of a traitor"

MY POST> SILLY DAKKA...

t is rather passive aggressive threat.
Don't do it, we may not goet you today but you will be watching your back forever. we will get you when you let your guard down. do not hide in the UK.

Porton Down, well they UK defense labs, who deal with Chemical warfare among other things like Eboila..however,, they where one of the labs who made the first VX nerve agents. maybe trying top pass blame onto another state, as a decoy?

much as Russian state might not have been involbed, it is most defenitely true that they would not have a favorble opinion of this man

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad). It was either the SVR, or less likely, the GRU, or even less likely the mafia (who might very well act on government orders). Also, a news guy saying something doesn't confirm anything. I mean, nobody is doubting who is behind this, but it is not proof.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad).

They do?

Who has given them this authority to act in this manner when not in Russia?!?

Wow, this might be a little OT but reading that article about that doomsday cult in Japan.... Whoah.

A group of less than 2000 people pooled resources and acquired enough material to make weapons capable of killing like 4 million people...


My local SF convention pulls in about 2000 people annually.

If a little cult like that one in japan could put together the resources for a holocaustic attack I think we need to face that it's likely a matter of when not if, we have a truly massive terrorist attack in the west with casualties that will dwarf 911. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.

I just wonder if it will really be a bunch of nuts, which is quite possible especially in America today, or a Reichstag fire to justify a new power grab or distract the public from something bigger.

But back on topic, I'd bet the poisoning of these people traces back to uncle pooty.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad). It was either the SVR, or less likely, the GRU, or even less likely the mafia (who might very well act on government orders). Also, a news guy saying something doesn't confirm anything. I mean, nobody is doubting who is behind this, but it is not proof.

I’m afraid I don’t know the inside out of the Russian “security” services, however I would hardly say “they only assassinate terrorists overseas” as a claim of being innocent.

I think it is a reasonably good guess that some news presenter isn’t doing that without editorial guidance, which I don’t think it is unreasonable to assume where this came from.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad).

They do?

Who has given them this authority to act in this manner when not in Russia?!?

Federal Law No. 35-FZ
Which also grants that same authority to all other Russian armed forces (in Russia, intelligence services are military rather than civilian organisations). That law was signed by a certain V.V. Putin, though it is widely known that these laws are not written by Putin or by parliament but by the intelligence agencies themselves. So I guess the most fitting answer is that they gave themselves the authority.

I think Alpharius's point was "what gives Putin the right to give that right in other countries?

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
If it was easy Isis wouldn't be messing about with backpacks of fertiliser and bits of shrapnel. Why bother if you could just walk in to a crowded building and release an odourless gas and wait for the panic?

This is 100% state actors, and the Russian news reports basically confirm it was FSB. Why else would they be making these vague warnings and silly insinuations about Porton Down?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498

The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad). It was either the SVR, or less likely, the GRU, or even less likely the mafia (who might very well act on government orders). Also, a news guy saying something doesn't confirm anything. I mean, nobody is doubting who is behind this, but it is not proof.

I’m afraid I don’t know the inside out of the Russian “security” services, however I would hardly say “they only assassinate terrorists overseas” as a claim of being innocent.

I think it is a reasonably good guess that some news presenter isn’t doing that without editorial guidance, which I don’t think it is unreasonable to assume where this came from.

Indeed, they assassinate more than just terrorists, and also not only abroad. But the FSB generally does not assassinate people abroad, it is an internal security organisation so its assassinations usually take place in Russia itself. So while it does have the authority to assassinate terrorists abroad if it sees fit, assassinations abroad are usually left to the SVR, the foreign intelligence agency. The SVR has better capabilities for such operations, especially if they take place outside of the ethnic Russian diaspora where the FSB has little power. Then there is also the GRU, the military intelligence organisation. They assassinate people both in Russia and abroad, but generally tend to focus on military targets (troublesome Ukrainian leaders, Chechens, radical islamists etc.).
As for your second point, that is just an assumption. He could have said it either on his own initiative or have been told to say it by the editors. We can't know unless we ask him, and it matters little either way.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think Alpharius's point was "what gives Putin the right to give that right in other countries?

The same thing that gives the CIA or Mossad the right to do it? Which I guess in the end comes down to nothing but 'might makes right'. There are no international laws that allow intelligence agencies to assassinate people in other countries. Governments just give themselves the right to do it.

It’s an act of terrorism, if not war, to murder someone in another country and injure dozens of bystanders. We wouldn’t tolerate Russian agents putting a bomb on a bus so why tolerate a chemical attack in a park?

Pretty sure our security services know who is responsible, but whether they can say publicly without betraying their sources and means of intelligence is a different thing. I’m sure there’s heaps of evidence for those behind the murder of Litvinenko but they won’t spill it openly as sources of information have to be preserved and secrecy maintained. But all the governments involved know the score behind closed doors.

Techpriestsupport wrote:
Wow, this might be a little OT but reading that article about that doomsday cult in Japan.... Whoah.

A group of less than 2000 people pooled resources and acquired enough material to make weapons capable of killing like 4 million people...

If a little cult like that one in japan could put together the resources for a holocaustic attack I think we need to face that it's likely a matter of when not if, we have a truly massive terrorist attack in the west with casualties that will dwarf 911. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. .

2000 people for a cult, especially a cult of that nature, isn't that small. Most cults are unlikely to grow so large due to their fondness for secrecy and total control of their members, both of which become much harder as more people are exposed to the cult.

Notable exceptions being ISIS, which basically wanted to become a country, and Scientology which is just a scam to con people out of money set up by a third rate science fiction novelist and fraudster.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
It’s an act of terrorism, if not war, to murder someone in another country and injure dozens of bystanders. We wouldn’t tolerate Russian agents putting a bomb on a bus so why tolerate a chemical attack in a park?

Pretty sure our security services know who is responsible, but whether they can say publicly without betraying their sources and means of intelligence is a different thing. I’m sure there’s heaps of evidence for those behind the murder of Litvinenko but they won’t spill it openly as sources of information have to be preserved and secrecy maintained. But all the governments involved know the score behind closed doors.

An act of war? Absolutely not. State terrorism? Maybe. But all great powers and some smaller ones do it nonetheless. It is not just Russia, China and the US are also quite active in assassinating people they do not like. As are countries like Israel, Iran, North Korea, Eritrea and other unpleasant regimes.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Techpriestsupport wrote:
Wow, this might be a little OT but reading that article about that doomsday cult in Japan.... Whoah.

A group of less than 2000 people pooled resources and acquired enough material to make weapons capable of killing like 4 million people...

If a little cult like that one in japan could put together the resources for a holocaustic attack I think we need to face that it's likely a matter of when not if, we have a truly massive terrorist attack in the west with casualties that will dwarf 911. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. .

2000 people for a cult, especially a cult of that nature, isn't that small. Most cults are unlikely to grow so large due to their fondness for secrecy and total control of their members, both of which become much harder as more people are exposed to the cult.

Notable exceptions being ISIS, which basically wanted to become a country, and Scientology which is just a scam to con people out of money set up by a third rate science fiction novelist and fraudster.

You just gave me a chilling thought. What if some real whacko takes over Scientology? As is I'm pretty sure Scientology is a grand scam to fleece suckers. But man, what if some real. nut with an agenda took it over? The resources it possesses are way beyond that doomsday cult in Japan had and those xxxxs set up to kill up to 4 million people....

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The FSB is an internal security agency. They are like special police. They are not going to be doing assassinations in other countries (unless it is terrorists, they do have authority to assassinate terrorists abroad). It was either the SVR, or less likely, the GRU, or even less likely the mafia (who might very well act on government orders). Also, a news guy saying something doesn't confirm anything. I mean, nobody is doubting who is behind this, but it is not proof.

The story is not about the FSB or the various jurisdictional vagaries of the Russian intelligence network. That's deflection, don't do it.

The story is about a newsreader on a government controlled channel making a clear case that Russia was behind the attack, and giving a motive for why Russia would do it, in order to put the word out to any possible future defectors. Who actually undertook the attack is irrelevant to that.

Now, you are right that the statement isn't proof. It wouldn't mean much in a court of law, but the legal requirements of courts are irrelevant here, even if the UK could identify who committed the act and who ordered it, they'd have no chance of getting them extradited from Russia. What is being debated here is policy response, what the UK should do if they become confident Russia was behind the attack. For those purposes, yeah this statement definitely helps confirm that it was Russia behind the attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
An act of war? Absolutely not. State terrorism? Maybe. But all great powers and some smaller ones do it nonetheless. It is not just Russia, China and the US are also quite active in assassinating people they do not like. As are countries like Israel, Iran, North Korea, Eritrea and other unpleasant regimes.

I'm sure you'll be able to provide a nice long list of US defectors who were died in mysterious circumstances while living in other countries. Maybe even just one name, one person. Because if you can't give even just one name, I might be forced to conclude this is yet another example of you defending Russia by saying its okay for Russia to do it because you accuse other countries of doing the same thing despite having absolutely no evidence of it.

21 people now effected. When spies, double agents and whatever are hurt that’s one thing. Random members of the public is something totally different. There is now no way the UK government can mumble something about sanctions, eject a few diplomats and forget about it.

To some extent it is true that the UK and USA carry out what might be called assassinations of people such as Jihadi John, and sometimes civilians get caught in the cross-fire. This is very regrettable.

There are two key differences between the Salisbury situation and the Jihadi John situation, though.

The first point is that the drone strikes in Iraq are against people who are engaged in armed combat against UK/US or allied forces. Skripal had done his time, been released and pardonned, and can't possibly still be involved in espionage activity all these years later. Thus the attack on him has no operational significance. It is purely vindictive.

The second point is that the drone operation is carried out on foreign soil. It would be very different if a UK/US drone flew to Moscow and bombed someone there whom we didn't like, and shrapnelled a bus full of commuters at the same time. Yet this is exactly what the Russians have done -- if it was them -- in using nerve gas in the centre of a British city.