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 Steve steveson wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Speaking of which. Besides some Kremlin comments that it was the British who gassed Skripal its been awfully quiet these past days. Is Putin going to cut his losses for now instead of going tit for tat, I wonder.

I suspect this is down to Putin having internal issues to deal with following the mall fire. There has been anti government protests and people are not happy about it. Putin has a choice to either double down on the "Oh look at how nasty the west is" to distract or find something else.

True, but it could be used as a politically convenient public distraction to quietly let this international argument die down before getting slapped with sanctions before the investigation is even over. Which is what I was wondering about. Putin doesn't have much to gain from picking it back up.

Putin is quite right in domestic terms to focus on the Kemerovo fire, which was a dreadful tragedy we all sympathise with. Particularly Londoners, who are still concerned with the fallout of the Grefell Tower fire, a similar disaster.

Russians are much better served by better fire regulations and less corruption in construction than by following up quarrels with the UK, particularly as it turns out the UK has much stronger backing from allies than Putin probably expected.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Putin is quite right in domestic terms to focus on the Kemerovo fire, which was a dreadful tragedy we all sympathise with. Particularly Londoners, who are still concerned with the fallout of the Grefell Tower fire, a similar disaster.

Russians are much better served by better fire regulations and less corruption in construction than by following up quarrels with the UK, particularly as it turns out the UK has much stronger backing from allies than Putin probably expected.

thank you... ironically, Kemerovo disaster is to some extent attributable to recent liberalisation of small and meduim businesses regulation... and now, would this liberalisation stay in place or be revised, there will be an openning for critisizing state policies

 elk@work wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Putin is quite right in domestic terms to focus on the Kemerovo fire, which was a dreadful tragedy we all sympathise with. Particularly Londoners, who are still concerned with the fallout of the Grefell Tower fire, a similar disaster.

Russians are much better served by better fire regulations and less corruption in construction than by following up quarrels with the UK, particularly as it turns out the UK has much stronger backing from allies than Putin probably expected.

thank you... ironically, Kemerovo disaster is to some extent attributable to recent liberalisation of small and meduim businesses regulation... and now, would this liberalisation stay in place or be revised, there will be an openning for critisizing state policies

I don't think its an opening to critisize the state. Fire safety still falls heavily on the business and if its true that fire exits were locked or blocked that doesn't really come down to liberalisation of regulation. Its more than likely a problem of local corruption on the side of inspectors and the business than a policy problem. Even in Europe there have been a number of fires over the years where it was clear the business didn't even attempt to make an effort to adhere to regulations (all the way up to locking fire doors).

It seems to me that the government should set building standards to the correct level (for instance, don't use inflammable seat cushions, do provide X amount of emergency exits per Y number of people, and so on.) Businesses then should follow the regulations. The government should survey the work and ensure the standards have been satisfied by prosecuting businesses which fail.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It seems to me that the government should set building standards to the correct level (for instance, don't use inflammable seat cushions, do provide X amount of emergency exits per Y number of people, and so on.) Businesses then should follow the regulations. The government should survey the work and ensure the standards have been satisfied by prosecuting businesses which fail.

I run a business, and they like... Do that.

I am already swamped in red tape, and paperwork, and legislation on all manner of safety things, to the point I can't have a can of Deodorant out in a non locked cabinet. Please no more.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It seems to me that the government should set building standards to the correct level (for instance, don't use inflammable seat cushions, do provide X amount of emergency exits per Y number of people, and so on.) Businesses then should follow the regulations. The government should survey the work and ensure the standards have been satisfied by prosecuting businesses which fail.

Interestingly enough the "cure" you have just outlined may actually be the very reason Grenfell happened.

I work in this industry, and i can pretty confidently say that everything on the grenfell tower will have likely been inspected and met fire safety standards.

The problem is; If a specification is outlined to a contractor they will meet that specification in the most cost effective way possible. If a spec says all internal fire barriers and materials must meet a specific fire standard, they will, at any cost be met.
However, then somebody says "we need to make this building look modern etc, slap some sandwich panel on the outside"- the contractor interrogates the specification and sees that no fire demands are placed on the paneling as it is external and therefore not covered by the internal spec.... so in order to keep costs low buys the cheapest paneling offered despite the fact that common sense would indicate this could leave a way for the fire to spread upwards.

But guess what? if you don't spec it, it doesn't get done.... the contractor is not paid to find oversights in the specification docs and the panel manufacturer is not paid to find oversights in the specification docs.

So, is the guy and his daughter still alive? Have they woken up?

Process wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It seems to me that the government should set building standards to the correct level (for instance, don't use inflammable seat cushions, do provide X amount of emergency exits per Y number of people, and so on.) Businesses then should follow the regulations. The government should survey the work and ensure the standards have been satisfied by prosecuting businesses which fail.

Interestingly enough the "cure" you have just outlined may actually be the very reason Grenfell happened.

I work in this industry, and i can pretty confidently say that everything on the grenfell tower will have likely been inspected and met fire safety standards.

The problem is; If a specification is outlined to a contractor they will meet that specification in the most cost effective way possible. If a spec says all internal fire barriers and materials must meet a specific fire standard, they will, at any cost be met.
However, then somebody says "we need to make this building look modern etc, slap some sandwich panel on the outside"- the contractor interrogates the specification and sees that no fire demands are placed on the paneling as it is external and therefore not covered by the internal spec.... so in order to keep costs low buys the cheapest paneling offered despite the fact that common sense would indicate this could leave a way for the fire to spread upwards.

But guess what? if you don't spec it, it doesn't get done.... the contractor is not paid to find oversights in the specification docs and the panel manufacturer is not paid to find oversights in the specification docs.

The problem with Grenfell is basically that working class people lived there and the local and national governments don't give a feth. So the standards were set to a bad level (e.g. test flammability of the cladding by a "desk test", which is not a practical working test, and certify it good (and cheap.)

Please note I am not arguing for more and more regulations. I am arguing for regulations that do a proper job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, is the guy and his daughter still alive? Have they woken up?

They are still unconscious. Reading between the lines of the reports, they may never wake up and if they do probably will have nerve and brain damage.

They are still unconscious. Reading between the lines of the reports, they may never wake up and if they do probably will have nerve and brain damage.

If I read it correctly, this Novichok substance is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, a substance class also used in medicine, but also as chemical weapons. The main difference seems to be that the weaponized compounds bind irreversible to neuronal enzymes, while the medical compounds just produce a reversible effect. If true, that could indeed mean that their nervous system is shot to hell at this point. Depending on the type of injury, neurons can regenerate to an extent, but I'm sure it'd be a process of years, not months, to get back to some semblance of health.

 sebster wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That is exactly the difference. Britain was an empire. Russia still is, and it will be until the imperial mindset finally fades.

This reads like a 1990s self help book, 'if you believe it it will be'.

Seriously, stop this nonsense. You don't get to just believe you are an empire and then it becomes so. You actually have to have the economic clout to make it so. And Russia really doesn't, which is why instead of doing things that normally grow an empire, things that the US and China do daily like expand their businesses in to key market and strategic resources, instead Russia plays pretend games about being an empire with crude, cheap military ops like pushing troops across the border in to the eastern fringes of Ukraine, or murdering a spy who gave up intel on your country a decade ago.

That isn't the work of an empire. It's the work of a malevolent country with severe budget constraints. Its discount evil.

You don't need an economy to be an empire. As the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union showed us. But ultimately, whether you think modern Russia qualifies as an empire or not is irrelevant (personally, I think it is an edge case). What matters is what I like to call 'the imperial spirit' in the minds of the Russian leadership and people. If it thinks like an empire and behaves like an empire, you should probably treat it as one in diplomatic relations if you desire a peaceful constructive relationship, regardless of what you personally think.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That is exactly the difference. Britain was an empire. Russia still is, and it will be until the imperial mindset finally fades.

This reads like a 1990s self help book, 'if you believe it it will be'.

Seriously, stop this nonsense. You don't get to just believe you are an empire and then it becomes so. You actually have to have the economic clout to make it so. And Russia really doesn't, which is why instead of doing things that normally grow an empire, things that the US and China do daily like expand their businesses in to key market and strategic resources, instead Russia plays pretend games about being an empire with crude, cheap military ops like pushing troops across the border in to the eastern fringes of Ukraine, or murdering a spy who gave up intel on your country a decade ago.

That isn't the work of an empire. It's the work of a malevolent country with severe budget constraints. Its discount evil.

You don't need an economy to be an empire. As the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union showed us. But ultimately, whether you think modern Russia qualifies as an empire or not is irrelevant (personally, I think it is an edge case). What matters is what I like to call 'the imperial spirit' in the minds of the Russian leadership and people. If it thinks like an empire and behaves like an empire, you should probably treat it as one in diplomatic relations if you desire a peaceful constructive relationship, regardless of what you personally think.

So treat it like a high school bully then? That think they're bigger than they are?

What the Russian and Soviet Empire also showed us is that bad economies lead to imperial overstretch and collapse much faster. Plus they had a much vaster area to exploit and still didn't make it. Power helps create an empire, money sustains it, as shown by Eastern Europe going over to the US and Central Asia to China. I still don't see how we have to reward people for being delusional. If we should treat people according to how they view themselves that would mean we all have to line up to kiss Kim's ass. No thanks

Basically sums up my thoughts on big strong russia

In that neither country is what it was and should both get on with being what they are today, large militaries only mean you aren't going to be invaded. Real power these days is either economic or how you can project that military.

Apparently Yulia's health is improving. Fingers crossed for her and hopefully her father improves, too,

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/29/europe/yulia-skripal-health-improves-russian-spy-intl/index.html

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Apparently Yulia's health is improving. Fingers crossed for her and hopefully her father improves, too,

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/29/europe/yulia-skripal-health-improves-russian-spy-intl/index.html

And Austria is offering to mediate between the UK and Russia. Good things today.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Apparently Yulia's health is improving. Fingers crossed for her and hopefully her father improves, too,

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/29/europe/yulia-skripal-health-improves-russian-spy-intl/index.html

And Austria is offering to mediate between the UK and Russia. Good things today.

Yay! It is good to see not all countries have lost their mind yet. The Kremlin also seems to agree to mediation, so that is good too.

I also really hope the daughter makes it. She is an innocent victim.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I also really hope the daughter makes it. She is an innocent victim.

So is the dad...

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I also really hope the daughter makes it. She is an innocent victim.

So is the dad...

"Shpies are never innoshent, Mish Monehpenneh" - 007, probably

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
What the Russian and Soviet Empire also showed us is that bad economies lead to imperial overstretch and collapse much faster. Plus they had a much vaster area to exploit and still didn't make it. Power helps create an empire, money sustains it, as shown by Eastern Europe going over to the US and Central Asia to China. I still don't see how we have to reward people for being delusional. If we should treat people according to how they view themselves that would mean we all have to line up to kiss Kim's ass. No thanks

That is true. Russia tends to collapse every now and then. It is a big drawback of being so focused on military power. Russia is strong, but also very unstable. It has always been that way.


And actually, it is completely unrelated, but if we started kissing Kim's ass, North Korea would collapse within decades. No more foreign enemies to blame means the regime would suddenly need to find actual solutions for the many problems of the country. Uh-oh...
That is pragmatism. To know when it is time to kick ass and when it is time to kiss ass. To sometimes do things you do not want to do to obtain a later result that you do want. Unfortunately, both Russia and Western countries tend to be very bad in pragmatism. A country like China is much better in this.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I also really hope the daughter makes it. She is an innocent victim.

So is the dad...

Traitors are guilty for life.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
What the Russian and Soviet Empire also showed us is that bad economies lead to imperial overstretch and collapse much faster. Plus they had a much vaster area to exploit and still didn't make it. Power helps create an empire, money sustains it, as shown by Eastern Europe going over to the US and Central Asia to China. I still don't see how we have to reward people for being delusional. If we should treat people according to how they view themselves that would mean we all have to line up to kiss Kim's ass. No thanks

That is true. Russia tends to collapse every now and then. It is a big drawback of being so focused on military power. Russia is strong, but also very unstable. It has always been that way.


And actually, it is completely unrelated, but if we started kissing Kim's ass, North Korea would collapse within decades. No more foreign enemies to blame means the regime would suddenly need to find actual solutions for the many problems of the country. Uh-oh...
That is pragmatism. To know when it is time to kick ass and when it is time to kiss ass. To sometimes do things you do not want to do to obtain a later result that you do want. Unfortunately, both Russia and Western countries tend to be very bad in pragmatism. A country like China is much better in this.

That's an adorable if inaccurate cartoon.

You do realize that kissing Kim's ass achieves nothing? Kim isn't holding North Korea in an iron grip because the West is being mean to him, he's doing it with Stalinist methods. He can just keep pretending. What, are the North Korean independent media going to call him out on it? Its not like North Koreans enjoy North Korea, hence the brainwashing and re-education camps.

China isn't very pragmatic at all. Its only pragmatic about things it doesn't really care about. Bring up Taiwan, Tibet or Japan and watch them almost foam at the mouth. Xi Jinping actually threw away the pragmatic progress that Hu Jintao made in East Asia by going balls to the wall on "our backyard now". China is doing more to unite East Asia against itself than the US ever did.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I also really hope the daughter makes it. She is an innocent victim.

So is the dad...

Traitors are guilty for life.

Thanks, just wanted to hear you say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Russia just expelled diplomats, round and round the circus goes.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43590933

yesterday Boris Johnson referred to Dostoevsy and his 'Crime and punishment'...

“It is rather like the beginning of Crime and Punishment in the sense that we are all confident of the culprit – and the only question is whether he will confess or be caught.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-sergei-skripal-nerve-agent-russia-spy-salisbury-attack-crime-and-punishment-a8278576.html

this gives me a valid reason to mention a quotation from the same piece of writing, p.351 in the book on my shelf:
100 rabits do not make a horse, 100 allegations do not make an evidence...

thank you Austria for your common sense )))

For those praising Austria, lets not forget that their government actually contains a party that is Nazi adjacent, with some members having been caught on social media with full on Nazi/SS sympathies. Common sense indeed
Never thought Russians would be praising that government

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For those praising Austria, lets not forget that their government actually contains a party that is Nazi adjacent, with some members having been caught on social media with full on Nazi/SS sympathies. Common sense indeed
Never thought Russians would be praising that government

Has Russia 'praised' Nazi in that government? Has Russia praised that government? have other EU leaders refused to deal with that government?... what do you mean by this? I'm just grateful somebody tries to help rebuild communications and dialogue...

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For those praising Austria, lets not forget that their government actually contains a party that is Nazi adjacent, with some members having been caught on social media with full on Nazi/SS sympathies. Common sense indeed
Never thought Russians would be praising that government

Has Russia 'praised' Nazi in that government? Has Russia praised that government? have other EU leaders refused to deal with that government?... what do you mean by this? I'm just grateful somebody tries to help rebuild communications and dialogue

No, not Russia, hence why I said Russians, as in you and Iron Captain. Its just ironic considering Russia's history with Nazis.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For those praising Austria, lets not forget that their government actually contains a party that is Nazi adjacent, with some members having been caught on social media with full on Nazi/SS sympathies. Common sense indeed
Never thought Russians would be praising that government

Has Russia 'praised' Nazi in that government? Has Russia praised that government? have other EU leaders refused to deal with that government?... what do you mean by this? I'm just grateful somebody tries to help rebuild communications and dialogue

No, not Russia, hence why I said Russians, as in you and Iron Captain. Its just ironic considering Russia's history with Nazis.

this new guy from Austria came to Russia, in general he makes more sense then Johnson who is like our Zhirinovsky (a bit crazy radical guy) but worse as, unlike Zhirinovsky who is being held off from big offices, Johnson is allowed to talk to people on an international level...

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For those praising Austria, lets not forget that their government actually contains a party that is Nazi adjacent, with some members having been caught on social media with full on Nazi/SS sympathies. Common sense indeed
Never thought Russians would be praising that government

Has Russia 'praised' Nazi in that government? Has Russia praised that government? have other EU leaders refused to deal with that government?... what do you mean by this? I'm just grateful somebody tries to help rebuild communications and dialogue

No, not Russia, hence why I said Russians, as in you and Iron Captain. Its just ironic considering Russia's history with Nazis.

this new guy from Austria came to Russia, in general he makes more sense then Johnson who is like our Zhirinovsky (a bit crazy radical guy) but worse as, unlike Zhirinovsky who is being held off from big offices, Johnson is allowed to talk to people on an international level...

Well its hard not to make more sense than Johnson
However, this was expected, Austria had already decided not to join its allies in expelling diplomats a few days ago. Its hard to see what Austria can really accomplish though.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

However, this was expected, Austria had already decided not to join its allies in expelling diplomats a few days ago. Its hard to see what Austria can really accomplish though.

it can help rebuild dialogue which is critical to all of us unless we are crazy warmongers... check this...

here is US General Thomas Power speaking in December 1960 about things like nuclear war and first strike by the US and use of restraints instead:
"Restraint? Why are you so concerned with saving their lives? The whole idea is to kill the bastards. At the end of the war if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!"
Professor William Kaufmann from the RAND Corporation, losing his patience, noted: “Well, you’d better make sure that they're a man and a woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Power

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

However, this was expected, Austria had already decided not to join its allies in expelling diplomats a few days ago. Its hard to see what Austria can really accomplish though.

it can help rebuild dialogue which is critical to all of us unless we are crazy warmongers... check this...

here is US General Thomas Power speaking in December 1960 about things like nuclear war and first strike by the US and use of restraints instead:
"Restraint? Why are you so concerned with saving their lives? The whole idea is to kill the bastards. At the end of the war if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!"
Professor William Kaufmann from the RAND Corporation, losing his patience, noted: “Well, you’d better make sure that they're a man and a woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Power

Again, its not crazy, there is a level between just letting things happen and war. Nobody is advocating war. The dial has settings between 0 and 11.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 elk@work wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

However, this was expected, Austria had already decided not to join its allies in expelling diplomats a few days ago. Its hard to see what Austria can really accomplish though.

it can help rebuild dialogue which is critical to all of us unless we are crazy warmongers... check this...

here is US General Thomas Power speaking in December 1960 about things like nuclear war and first strike by the US and use of restraints instead:
"Restraint? Why are you so concerned with saving their lives? The whole idea is to kill the bastards. At the end of the war if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!"
Professor William Kaufmann from the RAND Corporation, losing his patience, noted: “Well, you’d better make sure that they're a man and a woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Power

Again, its not crazy, there is a level between just letting things happen and war. Nobody is advocating war. The dial has settings between 0 and 11.

no dialogue between nuclear powers is not crazy? are you sure? And, unlike some countries, Russia doesn't have a doctrine of a preventive nuke strike... does it make sense to push back everything I say just because I'm from Russia?