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2018/04/13 12:56:04
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Previously classified intelligence about poisoning of former Russian spy sent to Nato
Russia had tested whether door handles could be used to deliver nerve agents and had targeted the email accounts of Sergei and Yulia Skripal since at least 2013, according to previously classified intelligence over the Salisbury attack that has been made public.
The UK released the intelligence on Friday linking Russia to the attack on the former double agent and his daughter.
The door handle and email claims were made in a letter from Sir Mark Sedwill, the UK’s national security adviser, to the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg. It is extremely rare for the UK to make such intelligence public.
In the letter, Sedwill, who has an overview of the work of all British spy services, filled in some of the intelligence that Theresa May referred to when she made a House of Commons statement saying Russia was highly likely to have been behind the attack.
He said the nerve agent novichok had been developed at the Russian research facility in Shikhany as part of an offensive chemical weapons programme with the codename Foliant.
Sedwill said Russia regarded at least some of its defectors as “legitimate targets for assassination”, with the suggestion that they could include Skripal, a former member of the GRU, Russian military intelligence, who was convicted by Russia of espionage in 2004 after working for MI6.
“We have information indicating Russian intelligence service interest in the Skripals, dating back at least as far as 2013, when email accounts belonging to Yulia Skripal were targeted by GRU cyber specialists,” Sedwill wrote.
He also said: “During the 2000s, Russia commenced a programme to test means of delivering chemical warfare agents and to train personnel from special units in the use of these weapons. This programme subsequently included investigation of ways of delivering nerve agents, including by application to door handles. Within the last decade, Russia has produced and stockpiled small quantities of novichoks under the same programme.”
He said Russia had continued developing small amounts of novichok over the past decade.
“Russia’s chemical weapons programme continued after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By 1993, when Russia signed the chemical weapons convention (CWC), it is likely that some novichoks had passed acceptance testing, allowing their use by the Russian military,” he said.
“Russia’s CWC declaration failed to report any work on novichoks. Russia further developed some novichoks after ratifying the convention. In the mid-2000s, President [Vladimir] Putin was closely involved in the Russian chemical weapons programme. It is highly unlikely that any former Soviet republic (other than Russia) pursued an offensive chemical weapons programme after independence. It is unlikely that novichoks could be made and deployed by non-state actors (eg a criminal or terrorist group).”
The decision to release the intelligence is partly in response to Russia’s repeated denials that it is responsible for the attack and suggestions of alternative scenarios.
The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, which is linked to the United Nations, confirmed on Thursday that a novichok nerve agent had been used in the Salisbury attack.
Sedwill wrote: “I would like to share with you andallies further information regarding our assessment that it is highly likely that the Russian state was responsible for the Salisbury attack. Only Russia has the technical means, operational experience and the motive.”
The term “highly likely” is one commonly used by the intelligence agencies when they believe something is 100% certain – since they are unwilling to express that opinion without a caveat in case of error.
“Russia has a proven record of conducting state-sponsored assassination,” Sedwill said, concluding: “There is no plausible alternative explanation.”
This in the same week where the Russians have accused the West of staging that chemical attack in Syria. What a bunch of sycophants.
2018/04/13 13:22:55
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
It would be interesting to see what happens next, given some of the insanity coming out of Russia, if it weren't for the fact that Russia is backing itself in to a corner. This will probably result in more rhetoric and finger pointing with Russia making it more and more difficult for them to back down without being seen as weak, which the Russian government won't do.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/04/14 05:58:37
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Previously classified intelligence about poisoning of former Russian spy sent to Nato
Russia had tested whether door handles could be used to deliver nerve agents and had targeted the email accounts of Sergei and Yulia Skripal since at least 2013, according to previously classified intelligence over the Salisbury attack that has been made public.
The UK released the intelligence on Friday linking Russia to the attack on the former double agent and his daughter.
The door handle and email claims were made in a letter from Sir Mark Sedwill, the UK’s national security adviser, to the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg. It is extremely rare for the UK to make such intelligence public.
In the letter, Sedwill, who has an overview of the work of all British spy services, filled in some of the intelligence that Theresa May referred to when she made a House of Commons statement saying Russia was highly likely to have been behind the attack.
He said the nerve agent novichok had been developed at the Russian research facility in Shikhany as part of an offensive chemical weapons programme with the codename Foliant.
Sedwill said Russia regarded at least some of its defectors as “legitimate targets for assassination”, with the suggestion that they could include Skripal, a former member of the GRU, Russian military intelligence, who was convicted by Russia of espionage in 2004 after working for MI6.
“We have information indicating Russian intelligence service interest in the Skripals, dating back at least as far as 2013, when email accounts belonging to Yulia Skripal were targeted by GRU cyber specialists,” Sedwill wrote.
He also said: “During the 2000s, Russia commenced a programme to test means of delivering chemical warfare agents and to train personnel from special units in the use of these weapons. This programme subsequently included investigation of ways of delivering nerve agents, including by application to door handles. Within the last decade, Russia has produced and stockpiled small quantities of novichoks under the same programme.”
He said Russia had continued developing small amounts of novichok over the past decade.
“Russia’s chemical weapons programme continued after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By 1993, when Russia signed the chemical weapons convention (CWC), it is likely that some novichoks had passed acceptance testing, allowing their use by the Russian military,” he said.
“Russia’s CWC declaration failed to report any work on novichoks. Russia further developed some novichoks after ratifying the convention. In the mid-2000s, President [Vladimir] Putin was closely involved in the Russian chemical weapons programme. It is highly unlikely that any former Soviet republic (other than Russia) pursued an offensive chemical weapons programme after independence. It is unlikely that novichoks could be made and deployed by non-state actors (eg a criminal or terrorist group).”
The decision to release the intelligence is partly in response to Russia’s repeated denials that it is responsible for the attack and suggestions of alternative scenarios.
The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, which is linked to the United Nations, confirmed on Thursday that a novichok nerve agent had been used in the Salisbury attack.
Sedwill wrote: “I would like to share with you andallies further information regarding our assessment that it is highly likely that the Russian state was responsible for the Salisbury attack. Only Russia has the technical means, operational experience and the motive.”
The term “highly likely” is one commonly used by the intelligence agencies when they believe something is 100% certain – since they are unwilling to express that opinion without a caveat in case of error.
“Russia has a proven record of conducting state-sponsored assassination,” Sedwill said, concluding: “There is no plausible alternative explanation.”
This in the same week where the Russians have accused the West of staging that chemical attack in Syria. What a bunch of sycophants.
As a member of the Privy Council, Jeremy Corbyn would have had access to that around the same time as Theresa May, but still doubled down on the4 suggestion that the government was jumping the gun.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
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2018/04/14 11:52:33
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
This in the same week where the Russians have accused the West of staging that chemical attack in Syria. What a bunch of sycophants.
who says what... well, it only matters that much... but what does it mean that US/UK strike hours before OPCW are to set about their business in Douma? do they mean this to help OPCW to investigate? what would have been different if they stroke a day after OPCW finished the field mission?
2018/04/14 12:47:37
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
This in the same week where the Russians have accused the West of staging that chemical attack in Syria. What a bunch of sycophants.
who says what... well, it only matters that much... but what does it mean that US/UK strike hours before OPCW are to set about their business in Douma? do they mean this to help OPCW to investigate? what would have been different if they stroke a day after OPCW finished the field mission?
The longer you wait the more time Assad has to disperse his forces and equipment. Granted the delay probably already reduced the damage. Waiting on the OPCW could take weeks even if the OPCW could properly conduct an investigation, which is questionable at best, and the OPCW will not even assign blame in any case.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/14 13:11:08
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
The longer you wait the more time Assad has to disperse his forces and equipment. Granted the delay probably already reduced the damage. Waiting on the OPCW could take weeks even if the OPCW could properly conduct an investigation, which is questionable at best, and the OPCW will not even assign blame in any case.
good attempt but it only sums up to nothing but frivolous application of force... so it's time to shut down OPCW, if big players trust ISIS-alligned white helmets so much ...
2018/04/14 13:15:51
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
The longer you wait the more time Assad has to disperse his forces and equipment. Granted the delay probably already reduced the damage. Waiting on the OPCW could take weeks even if the OPCW could properly conduct an investigation, which is questionable at best, and the OPCW will not even assign blame in any case.
good attempt but it only sums up to nothing but frivolous application of force... so it's time to shut down OPCW, if big players trust ISIS-alligned white helmets so much ...
Best to take the wider discussion over to the ISIS thread, its where Syria gets discussed an the white helmet comments have been addressed over and over.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/14 23:58:33
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
So wait....was the chemical attack in Syria a lie fabricated by Russia's opponents, or a real attack, but staged by England to frame Russia by way of affiliation with Assad?
Russia seems to be confused over the two at the moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/14 23:59:32
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2018/04/15 00:16:15
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
good attempt but it only sums up to nothing but frivolous application of force... so it's time to shut down OPCW, if big players trust ISIS-alligned white helmets so much ...
No, but they do trust the WHO, who has, in turn, verified that the White Helmets were telling the truth based on autopsies of victems and soil samples taken at the site. Oh, and fragments of yet another Soviet made KhAB-250 chemical weapons bomb had been found at the site. Again, something that you'd have to have a plane to make work correctly.
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2018/04/16 08:26:14
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
good attempt but it only sums up to nothing but frivolous application of force... so it's time to shut down OPCW, if big players trust ISIS-alligned white helmets so much ...
No, but they do trust the WHO, who has, in turn, verified that the White Helmets were telling the truth based on autopsies of victems and soil samples taken at the site. Oh, and fragments of yet another Soviet made KhAB-250 chemical weapons bomb had been found at the site. Again, something that you'd have to have a plane to make work correctly.
WHO statement doesn't mention any field mission, autopsies or soil samples, and draws no conclusions as to who is to blame... white helmets and VDC make some claims, but both are openly 'pro-opposition', so in fact aligned with those who fights alongside ISIS - with terrorists, and are not experts to accomplish autopsies or soil sampling... and they don't mention autopsies, soil samples and soviet bombs as well... can't see any other sources mentioning autopsies or soil samples at the Douma site, as well as 'KhAB-250 fragments'... wasn't KhAB-250 in 2017 and even then questionable and based on circumstantial photo analysis rather than actual fragments?
by the way, Syrian Arab Red Crescent, which is affiliated with the Red Cross and since 1946 admitted to it's international committee, with 14 branches and 75 sub-branches all over Syria, and has a much better reputation as both an aid organization and medical service, has not confirmed or reported a chemical attack in Douma...
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 10:44:39
2018/04/16 08:40:27
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: by the way, Syrian Arab Red Crescent, which is affiliated with the Red Cross and since 1946 admitted to it's international committee, with 14 branches and 75 sub-branches all over Syria, and has a much better reputation as both an aid organization and medical service, has not confirmed or reported a chemical attack in Douma...
This is pure nonsense.
What happened was the site antiwar.com published a statement it claimed came from Red Crescent that no chemical attack occurred in Douma. Some actual reporters contacted Red Crescent and they issued a public statement; "We are not aware of such a declaration, neither the Syrian Arab Red Crescent nor the International Federation are in a position to confirm or deny any attack."
From there, the Russian bs machine adjusted its story slightly, to what you see elk@work parroting above, that Red Crescent hasn't confirmed any attack and with their presence in the region they would know if it happened therefore... Which is a clear manipulation of Red Cresecent's public statement.
I wonder if there's ever a point where someone like elk@work will ever say enough is enough, where his pride kicks in and they refuses to keep swallowing up these lies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 05:21:22
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/04/17 07:10:43
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: by the way, Syrian Arab Red Crescent, which is affiliated with the Red Cross and since 1946 admitted to it's international committee, with 14 branches and 75 sub-branches all over Syria, and has a much better reputation as both an aid organization and medical service, has not confirmed or reported a chemical attack in Douma...
This is pure nonsense.
What happened was the site antiwar.com published a statement it claimed came from Red Crescent that no chemical attack occurred in Douma. Some actual reporters contacted Red Crescent and they issued a public statement; "We are not aware of such a declaration, neither the Syrian Arab Red Crescent nor the International Federation are in a position to confirm or deny any attack."
From there, the Russian bs machine adjusted its story slightly, to what you see elk@work parroting above, that Red Crescent hasn't confirmed any attack and with their presence in the region they would know if it happened therefore... Which is a clear manipulation of Red Cresecent's public statement.
I wonder if there's ever a point where someone like elk@work will ever say enough is enough, where his pride kicks in and they refuses to keep swallowing up these lies?
remarkably, they just came to Douma and filmed/interviewed.... this means there is access to the site and this is something any decent media could have done...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 08:23:05
2018/04/17 08:17:57
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Remarkably what a news crew is allowed to film by the Syrian government says virtually nothing. The fact that Syria and Russia are delaying OPCW access says much much more.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/17 08:30:59
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Disciple of Fate wrote: Remarkably what a news crew is allowed to film by the Syrian government says virtually nothing. The fact that Syria and Russia are delaying OPCW access says much much more.
this kind of works both ways... remarkably, what white helmets are allowed to film by terrorists says virtually nothing (as they work, reside and move with those terrorists and on territories controlled by those terrorists)... the fact is that Russia and Syria support OPCW investigation and OPCW proceeds with deployment, while US and allies support independent investigatory team mechanism but are not happy with OPCW investigation...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 08:41:54
2018/04/17 08:42:00
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: but there is no Red Cresecent's public statement, or it would have been on their webpage...
I quoted the statement. Stop this nonsense.
check this
And now you just pivot away to different trash reporting.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/04/17 08:43:04
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Disciple of Fate wrote: Remarkably what a news crew is allowed to film by the Syrian government says virtually nothing. The fact that Syria and Russia are delaying OPCW access says much much more.
this kind of works both ways... remarkably, what white helmets are allowed to film by terrorists says virtually nothing (as they work, reside and move with those terrorists and on territories controlled by those terrorists)... the fact is that Russia and Syria support OPCW investigation and OPCW proceeds with deployment, while US and allies support independent investigatory team mechanism...
It does, but its pretty clear something big happened. So one side's story is a lot more believable than the side going "nothing to see here, move along".
See, you would think Syria and Russia support the OPCW, but they don't because Russia wants to prevent the OPCW from making any conclusions. Meanwhile the US and its Allies want to give the OPCW full investigatory powers. So really, all Russia is doing is paying the OPCW lipservice with a boot on its neck, while the US wants to actually give the OPCW free reign.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/17 08:54:57
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: but there is no Red Cresecent's public statement, or it would have been on their webpage...
I quoted the statement. Stop this nonsense.
check this
And now you just pivot away to different trash reporting.
it's up to you to call it 'trash' (but why, really?) or take it seriously... to me those two reports are much more real journalism then much else published on the subject... it's there, it's not Russian news, it provides some witness account from the site... no point in bullying me personally
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 10:09:43
2018/04/17 13:36:15
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Between the 2002 Nord-Ost siege, Alexander Litvinenko, Viktor Yushchenko, supporting Assad gas attacks in 2017, again in 2018, the Skripals, are we actually debating whether Russia is responsible for any of this? Are memories that short?
The Russian government is a sick, sick, organization. I wouldnt put it past them to do anything, and at this point if Putin is still in charge, then they are guilty first and have to prove to me their innocence. Their track record is unreal. And they have suffered nothing for any of it. Kicking out some diplomats, some weak sanctions, oh and the Royals wont be attending the world cup (how will they get over that one?)
These guys are a-holes. Pure and simple. My favorite part is when they do something like this again in the near future, people will debate again whether it was them or not based on 'the evidence'.
Maybe I should have a sense of humor about it, and just be pro-russian about it and ask repeatedly where the evidence is for these various claims, then make up excuses. Repeatedly until memories of the event fade away. Which will happen, pretty quickly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 13:37:51
2018/04/17 15:23:01
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
KTG17 wrote: Between the 2002 Nord-Ost siege, Alexander Litvinenko, Viktor Yushchenko, supporting Assad gas attacks in 2017, again in 2018, the Skripals, are we actually debating whether Russia is responsible for any of this? Are memories that short?
The Russian government is a sick, sick, organization. I wouldnt put it past them to do anything, and at this point if Putin is still in charge, then they are guilty first and have to prove to me their innocence. Their track record is unreal. And they have suffered nothing for any of it. Kicking out some diplomats, some weak sanctions, oh and the Royals wont be attending the world cup (how will they get over that one?)
These guys are a-holes. Pure and simple. My favorite part is when they do something like this again in the near future, people will debate again whether it was them or not based on 'the evidence'.
Maybe I should have a sense of humor about it, and just be pro-russian about it and ask repeatedly where the evidence is for these various claims, then make up excuses. Repeatedly until memories of the event fade away. Which will happen, pretty quickly.
the sort of argument you make could only be valid if Russian government is the only government which has ever done so bad things... but this is not the case, absolutely not the case... I won't do other's homework, all the information is there and one only needs to reach for it, thanks Google... something like this is a fleck on a rock on a top of an iceberg
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-syria-war-uk-chemical-weapons-attack-iran-iraq-thatcher-russia-a8300881.html and much more if you spare some time to read...
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Disciple of Fate wrote: It does, but its pretty clear something big happened. So one side's story is a lot more believable than the side going "nothing to see here, move along".
Disciple of Fate wrote: It does, but its pretty clear something big happened. So one side's story is a lot more believable than the side going "nothing to see here, move along".
Is that link meant to be ironic? Al-Masdar is heavily biased in favor of Assad and notorious for engaging in conspiracy theories regarding the opponents of Assad. I would say its the Syrian version of Russia Today, but I almost feel like that's an insult to RT. I wouldn't click that link with a ten foot pole.
And consistent with Frisk's report on what? The Syrian government only lets Frisk see what the Syrian government wants Frisk to see.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 17:06:32
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/17 17:15:57
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
shall we go in more detail on political assasinations? you won't like it, as well as other people in this thread... one can make his case on Skripal or Douma this or other way, with all respect, up to you... but you have no chance of making the case that Russia has worse track record than other big powers, just no chance at all...
Is that link meant to be ironic? Al-Masdar is heavily biased in favor of Assad and notorious for engaging in conspiracy theories regarding the opponents of Assad. I would say its the Syrian version of Russia Today, but I almost feel like that's an insult to RT. I wouldn't click that link with a ten foot pole.
And consistent with Frisk's report on what? The Syrian government only lets Frisk see what the Syrian government wants Frisk to see.
biased or not, in this article (which pre-dates Douma) they report on weather conditions, the same the doctor interviewed by Frisk reported on 7 April (intensified by bombing), and the photo has parallels with Douma videos... this may mean nothing, but this photo could have been added to white helmets report and no one noticed they are not related... take it or leave it - just an observation
and what you're saying on Frisk and Syrian government is not consistent with what he says in the very report... any specific reasons not to trust him other than what he's saying doesn't support one of the versions of events but supports the other?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 17:50:26
2018/04/17 19:23:28
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Are we even on the same planet? One guy goes off into the woods to slash his wrists after being humiliated, the other falls for the classic assassination move with a blow to the head and then thrown over a balcony? Seriously?
shall we go in more detail on political assasinations? you won't like it, as well as other people in this thread... one can make his case on Skripal or Douma this or other way, with all respect, up to you... but you have no chance of making the case that Russia has worse track record than other big powers, just no chance at all...
Hey, everything you listed is indeed terrible, both the US and Russia have done it. But what Russia has also done is go a step further to not only assassinate people in other countries with risky and banned materials, its supported a man who is killing his own people with nerve gas. HIS OWN PEOPLE. That blatant disregard for his own people, which Putin is guilty of too by the way, goes to show you how outside the norms these two a-holes are.
We have Waco, you have Belsan. The difference between us is that we're able to openly discuss, investigate, and debate what happened in hopes of learning and finding better resolutions, and more importantly BLAME those for we think are responsible. Read up on the aftermath of Belsan. No wonder no one trusts the Russians. If you can use poison gas on hostages trapped in a theater, or use T-72 tanks and Shmels to fire INTO a school with elementary students, you've got issues. And you see that mindset spill over internationally.
And it isn't even like Russia is really good at any of it; its unbelievably clumsy. But in their defense, the world is a bunch of pussies and doesn't do anything to check any of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 19:32:51
2018/04/17 20:05:46
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: and what you're saying on Frisk and Syrian government is not consistent with what he says in the very report... any specific reasons not to trust him other than what he's saying doesn't support one of the versions of events but supports the other?
The issue I have with the reporting of Frisk is not that I don't trust him. I don't trust the Syrian government not having doctored and screened the whole place before they brought in the journalists. In a country where journalists are kept on a tight leash by the regime for obvious reasons, how can we take anything shown to them by the Syrian regime at face value? Did Frisk witness reality in Douma or the 'reality' the government wants him to see?
Its like people being shown the best side of North Korea, while people are dying just around the corner. But as you don't get to see that its hard to report anything beyond things seeming fine as far as you could see. That is the impression I'm getting from Frisk's report.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:07:59
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/17 20:16:33
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Are we even on the same planet? One guy goes off into the woods to slash his wrists after being humiliated, the other falls for the classic assassination move with a blow to the head and then thrown over a balcony? Seriously?
two stories have too much in common... I suppose would the guy happen to be a Russian scientist who exposed Russian government and was found dead in the Russian woods with all other circumstances in line, you would have quoted this story to me in the first place to prove your point...
But what Russia has also done is go a step further to not only assassinate people in other countries with risky and banned materials, its supported a man who is killing his own people with nerve gas. HIS OWN PEOPLE. That blatant disregard for his own people, which Putin is guilty of too by the way, goes to show you how outside the norms these two a-holes are.
do you imply that US/UK killing Syrians are somehow better that Assad killing Syrians or have more rights to kill Syrians? or 600 people killed with a missile is better than 40 killed with a gas? let's kill more Syrians, let's arm and support those who kill more Syrians, all this to stop Assad killing Syrians? what you're saying is that US/UK are good because they kill Syrians (Iraqi, Iranians, Lybians, Serbs, Panamians, Koreans, Vietnamese, Yemeni etc.) and help Saudi kill Syrians and Yemeni, but don't kill Americans or British... hey, this is racist at the least... what next - let's kill Russians to stop Putin killing Russians?
elk@work wrote: and what you're saying on Frisk and Syrian government is not consistent with what he says in the very report... any specific reasons not to trust him other than what he's saying doesn't support one of the versions of events but supports the other?
The issue I have with the reporting of Frisk is not that I don't trust him. I don't trust the Syrian government not having doctored and screened the whole place before they brought in the journalists. In a country where journalists are kept on a tight leash by the regime for obvious reasons, how can we take anything shown to them by the Syrian regime at face value? Did Frisk witness reality in Douma or the 'reality' the government wants him to see?
Its like people being shown the best side of North Korea, while people are dying just around the corner. But as you don't get to see that its hard to report anything beyond things seeming fine as far as you could see. That is the impression I'm getting from Frisk's report.
but Frisk talked to people and the very guy who witnessed the filming of white helmets video in his own clinic... and the guy is a doctor, who has been treating people in Douma for long and apparentely can distinguish symptoms and all... so does it mean that this doctor and other residents were conditioned or something by Syrian government, or what else?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:35:11
2018/04/17 20:33:08
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
two stories have too much in common... I suppose would the guy happen to be a Russian scientist who exposed Russian government and was found dead in the Russian woods with all other circumstances in line, you would have quoted this story to me in the first place to prove your point...
The only thing that these two stories have in common is that a guy died in each on of them.
do you imply that US/UK killing Syrians are somehow better that Assad killing Syrians or have more rights to kill Syrians? or 600 people killes with a missile is better than 40 killes with a gas? let's kill more Syrians, let's arm and support those who kill more Syrians, all this to stop Assad killing Syrians? what you're saying is that US/UK are good because they kill Syrians (Iraqi, Lybian etc.) but not Americans or British... hey, this is racist at the least...
Are you really justifying using chemical weapons? Because if you are, there is no point in going forward. In addition, I want you to spend some time thinking about what kind of world this would be if everyone just went ahead and used them. I mean, why not? Why should Assad and Putin have all the fun?
Well, its because we have been down this road before. Yes, there are a lot of weapons of war that inflict horrific injuries to innocent people that are completely legal to use. But if you are going to take the caps of the chemical weapons, why stop there? Roll up the sleeves and unleash biological and nuclear. I mean, it all kills people so what's the problem?
Really. I can't believe I am even spending time debating this.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:36:57
2018/04/17 20:38:26
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
elk@work wrote: and what you're saying on Frisk and Syrian government is not consistent with what he says in the very report... any specific reasons not to trust him other than what he's saying doesn't support one of the versions of events but supports the other?
The issue I have with the reporting of Frisk is not that I don't trust him. I don't trust the Syrian government not having doctored and screened the whole place before they brought in the journalists. In a country where journalists are kept on a tight leash by the regime for obvious reasons, how can we take anything shown to them by the Syrian regime at face value? Did Frisk witness reality in Douma or the 'reality' the government wants him to see?
Its like people being shown the best side of North Korea, while people are dying just around the corner. But as you don't get to see that its hard to report anything beyond things seeming fine as far as you could see. That is the impression I'm getting from Frisk's report.
but Frisk talked to people and the very guy who witnessed the filming of white helmets video in his own clinic... and the guy is a doctor, who has been treating people in Douma for long and apparentely can distinguish symptoms and all... so does it mean that this doctor and other residents were conditioned or something by Syrian government, or what else?
Come on, talking to people is meaningless. You and I both know that when Douma fell government troops dragged off anyone that gave of a whiff of anti Assad sentiment to the torture dungeons. Those people are the ones that the government left behind to be interviewed, and you can be damn sure that those people would be aware every word they said would be relayed back to the government. Hell, the doctor interviewed wasn't even an eyewitness as Frisk makes clear:
"As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?
By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks."
So no, the good doctor can't distinguish symptoms for an event he wasn't even at.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:40:00
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/04/17 20:46:58
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Are you really justifying using chemical weapons? Because if you are, there is no point in going forward. In addition, I want you to spend some time thinking about what kind of world this would be if everyone just went ahead and used them. I mean, why not? Why should Assad and Putin have all the fun?
Well, its because we have been down this road before. Yes, there are a lot of weapons of war that conflict horrific injuries to innocent people that are completely legal to use. But if you are going to take the caps of the chemical weapons, why stop there? Roll up the sleeves and unleash biological and nuclear. I mean, it all kills people so what's the problem?
Really. I can't believe I am even spending time debating this.
I don't see in what way chemical weapons are different from other indiscriminate weapons killing people and used by respectable countries on territories of sovereign states killing civilians... do you know how many Serbian children were killed by leftover bomblings from cluster bombs after Yugoslavia bombing by NATO? even on this example - take into account three simple facts... this was known in advance up to 30% of bomblings do not detonate and become mines... 30% of 200 000 bomblings dropped on populated areas in Serbia are still there, they're orange and attract children if found... US blocked inclusion of cluster munitions into the list of weapons of mass destruction, this and only this makes it different from chemical weapons... so in fact this was US who first used WMD in Europe after WW II
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Disciple of Fate wrote: Come on, talking to people is meaningless. You and I both know that when Douma fell government troops dragged off anyone that gave of a whiff of anti Assad sentiment to the torture dungeons. Those people are the ones that the government left behind to be interviewed, and you can be damn sure that those people would be aware every word they said would be relayed back to the government.
talking to people is meaningless... visiting site is meaningless... air strikes on a capital of other country and supporting terrorists are meaningful... we walk different roads, maybe because I personally felt the shock wave of an appartnment building being blasted by terrorists in Moscow in 90s and so many of my wife's relatives were killed in WW II here not far from Moscow that she was lucky to be born...
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