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His army is slow, just kite and shoot. This hurt so bad because you are almost exclusively a melee force. Put a bunch of Heavy Bolters in your army and he should cry (since they're T5 with the buff you'll want the +1S over normal bolters).

Alternatively, put jump packs on your units and hold them in reserve. You can then 3D6 multi-charge for Typhus+Prince and jump over his screen. Captain Slamguinus should be enough to chew either of them up in a round of combat, leaving the rest of your army to focus on the horde.

You might want to add in Lightning Claws too. Re-rolling 5 ups doesn't actually work out too bad. Plus an extra attack to help with volume!

Why play Landspeeders? They're bad. OP should drop them and take 3 units of Scout BIkers. i'm not immediately sure where the other 80 or so points go, but those 3 units of Scout Bikers are going to out perform the Landspeeders just on their own.

Audustum wrote:
His army is slow, just kite and shoot. This hurt so bad because you are almost exclusively a melee force. Put a bunch of Heavy Bolters in your army and he should cry (since they're T5 with the buff you'll want the +1S over normal bolters).

Alternatively, put jump packs on your units and hold them in reserve. You can then 3D6 multi-charge for Typhus+Prince and jump over his screen. Captain Slamguinus should be enough to chew either of them up in a round of combat, leaving the rest of your army to focus on the horde.

You might want to add in Lightning Claws too. Re-rolling 5 ups doesn't actually work out too bad. Plus an extra attack to help with volume!

Parts of this work but if he's a good player you'll never to Typhus because there won't be a base's worth of space around him to land (same as the prince until he jumps out to engage).

Martel732 wrote:
312 pts gets you a lot of inceptors who will mulch all that chaff. Dump the heavy flamer speeders. 8" range is a major downer in 8th ed.

One unit of 6 inceptors would fit, its only 270 pts. and give me some points back for heavy bolters on the tacs.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
His army is slow, just kite and shoot. This hurt so bad because you are almost exclusively a melee force. Put a bunch of Heavy Bolters in your army and he should cry (since they're T5 with the buff you'll want the +1S over normal bolters).

Alternatively, put jump packs on your units and hold them in reserve. You can then 3D6 multi-charge for Typhus+Prince and jump over his screen. Captain Slamguinus should be enough to chew either of them up in a round of combat, leaving the rest of your army to focus on the horde.

You might want to add in Lightning Claws too. Re-rolling 5 ups doesn't actually work out too bad. Plus an extra attack to help with volume!

Parts of this work but if he's a good player you'll never to Typhus because there won't be a base's worth of space around him to land (same as the prince until he jumps out to engage).

Yeah this is the problem as he has all the tools to bubble warp him super tight.

There is always flyers

a storm talon or raven might be capable of swinging around and around for a few turns enough to take out a chunk of the bubble wrap, potentially enough to make an opening on typhus.

then your troops need to be fast and dodgy to keep kiting them.

 p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
312 pts gets you a lot of inceptors who will mulch all that chaff. Dump the heavy flamer speeders. 8" range is a major downer in 8th ed.

One unit of 6 inceptors would fit, its only 270 pts. and give me some points back for heavy bolters on the tacs.

Definitely run them as two unts of 3 unless you don't have the force organization slot. It makes them more immune to morale.

 meleti wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
312 pts gets you a lot of inceptors who will mulch all that chaff. Dump the heavy flamer speeders. 8" range is a major downer in 8th ed.

One unit of 6 inceptors would fit, its only 270 pts. and give me some points back for heavy bolters on the tacs.

Definitely run them as two unts of 3 unless you don't have the force organization slot. It makes them more immune to morale.

They are already pretty immune to morale as outside of combat i dont think the zombones can do anything to them.

is there any specific strats that help out inceptors in large units?

otherwise two units of 3 are fine and probably better outside of deployment numbers for first turn.

meleti wrote:Why play Landspeeders? They're bad. OP should drop them and take 3 units of Scout BIkers. i'm not immediately sure where the other 80 or so points go, but those 3 units of Scout Bikers are going to out perform the Landspeeders just on their own.

What ? 3 speeders do 6D6 autohits at S5 AP-1. They can fly 20", which means they can fallback and still shoot. Even when they are completely surrounded, they can still fallback, because they can fly. How are scout bikes going to outperform that ?

Farseer_V2 wrote:
Parts of this work but if he's a good player you'll never to Typhus because there won't be a base's worth of space around him to land (same as the prince until he jumps out to engage).

Exactly. There is no space to go after typhus or the prince in CC.

 p5freak wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Yeah sorry i dont have all the information on what the pox walkers do. im sure it will work on chump cultists. what gives them the 4+?

Edit even then though how many pox walkers are going to swing, how many attacks and the chances. a blender dread might take out a decent chunk before going down.

Typhus buffs poxwalkers to S4 and T4 just by being there (within 7". And putrescent vitality will buff one DG unit with S+1 and T+1, making them S5 and T5, if needed. Blades of putrefaction will add +1 to wound rolls. Even with S4 they will wound a T7 dread on 4+. 20 poxwalkers will hit on 4+ and wound the dread on 4+.

Nightlord1987 wrote:What kind of missions are you playing? It seems like alot of people are against maelstrom games (drunken commander), but they force both players to be more adaptable with tactics and list building.

This DG list has one trick to play.

We played the open war cards. There were 4 objectives on the battlefield. Poxwalkers and cultists have obsec i believe. They outnumbered my tac squads by a lot, before killing them.

There is a bunch of good advice in this thread - I feel like you maybe had a rough game and are maybe "tilted" so to speak. This list is not unbeatable by any means. For your list - there may be a significant challenge as you are playing 1k points. The versatility (as noted already before) is diminished at 1k. Its like playing 435 poitns game against magnus, unless you happen to bring a ton of models with meltas -> its going to get ugly fast. In this setting (which you accepted playing) you will be more susceptible to this type of one trick pony list. It is an artifact of playing at 1k. That being said - keep distance, kill the poxes first, bring more anti-horde dakka even if these are seen as "suboptimal" from a competitive standpoint - this will damage you against other lists but make you stronger here. He can only make one pox unit per turn untargettable - you can wipe the other two before dealing with the cultists (who by the way if they fail morale DO NOT spawn more poxes).

 p5freak wrote:

meleti wrote:Why play Landspeeders? They're bad. OP should drop them and take 3 units of Scout BIkers. i'm not immediately sure where the other 80 or so points go, but those 3 units of Scout Bikers are going to out perform the Landspeeders just on their own.

What ? 3 speeders do 6D6 autohits at S5 AP-1. They can fly 20", which means they can fallback and still shoot. Even when they are completely surrounded, they can still fallback, because they can fly. How are scout bikes going to outperform that ?

Scout bikers have 22 shots mixed between S4 and S5 per 77 point unit. They're generally speaking the best dakka unit point-for-point as a Space Marines player.

Also I'm not very confident in your Land Speeder surviving whatever charges it.

 p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
312 pts gets you a lot of inceptors who will mulch all that chaff. Dump the heavy flamer speeders. 8" range is a major downer in 8th ed.

One unit of 6 inceptors would fit, its only 270 pts. and give me some points back for heavy bolters on the tacs.

Six inceptors is also stupid good with upon wings of fire. All of the objective denial.

I think you had the right idea with speeders, just not the right weapons. 3 of them with heavy bolters / assault cannons and focus fire at the cultists. You should be able to sit back and fire without any issues of them getting into range with you unless you want them to be. Follow that up with a 5 man dev squad with heavy bolters or missile launchers for long range touchy Feely, and maybe a whirlwind to use the auto hit stratagem and you have a solid gunline. Work on killing 10-12 cultists a squad then move to the next, your opponent will lose additional ones to moral and those don't increase the pox walkers size. Use the rest of your points to get you some other units for objective taking or dealing with the dp and you should at least make it a more even game. The issue he will have is everything is slow and your fast or very mobile.

Maybe take the lib dreadnought as well if it can fit point wise. Flying dreadnoughts that can't be targeted because not the closest thing are hilarious.

I bet he does that super fun strategy where he puts the cultists up front and makes the pox walkers untargetable and them takes the strategum that allows slain cultiists to become pox walkers.

Dude just kite that dumpster fire army. Don't let the tarpit get on top of you.

Off the top of my head... only one poxwalker squad can be T5 per turn via putrescence vitality/untargetable with cloud of flies, so shoot the other two squads for maximum casualties. If he brings 3x20, then at worst there will still be one T4 poxwalker unit you can shoot (possibly at -1 from miasma). Similarly, ignore the cultists, unless you can shoot a cultist unit that isn't within 7" of the PW unit that is under the effects of "the dead walk again". DG cultists that take casualties will be destroyed by morale.

Alternatively, bring a librarian to deny PV from going off, giving you a fair chance of making all PW squads T4. Also has the benefit of potentially denying blades of putrefaction or miasma going off if/when he fails PV

 hippyjr wrote:
Off the top of my head... only one poxwalker squad can be T5 per turn via putrescence vitality/untargetable with cloud of flies, so shoot the other two squads for maximum casualties. If he brings 3x20, then at worst there will still be one T4 poxwalker unit you can shoot (possibly at -1 from miasma). Similarly, ignore the cultists, unless you can shoot a cultist unit that isn't within 7" of the PW unit that is under the effects of "the dead walk again". DG cultists that take casualties will be destroyed by morale.

Alternatively, bring a librarian to deny PV from going off, giving you a fair chance of making all PW squads T4. Also has the benefit of potentially denying blades of putrefaction or miasma going off if/when he fails PV

The dead walk again cant add to a full unit right? (matched play assuming)

id say target hard those cultists first then any T4 then anything that is left.

 Desubot wrote:


The dead walk again cant add to a full unit right? (matched play assuming)

id say target hard those cultists first then any T4 then anything that is left.

It absolutely can.

Cloud of Flies will prevent targeting the Pox Walkers, but that's an expensive combo with TDWA. At 1k he should only be able to pull this off 2-3 times I suspect, but I haven't tried to cram two battalions into 1k points recently.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


The dead walk again cant add to a full unit right? (matched play assuming)

id say target hard those cultists first then any T4 then anything that is left.

It absolutely can.

Cloud of Flies will prevent targeting the Pox Walkers, but that's an expensive combo with TDWA. At 1k he should only be able to pull this off 2-3 times I suspect, but I haven't tried to cram two battalions into 1k points recently.

Wait so poxwalkers get permission to add past their own starting numbers and ignore reinforcement points even in match play?

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so poxwalkers get permission to add past their own starting numbers and ignore reinforcement points even in match play?

It absolutely does and is not breaking matched play rules in the process. Tide of Traitors circumvents the rule also. It's not that unusual, iirc it has to do with the fact that it's not actually creating a new unit.

Pink Horrors for example specify that Blues and Brims must come from reinforcement points in matched play, as do many other similar mechanics.

 meleti wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

meleti wrote:Why play Landspeeders? They're bad. OP should drop them and take 3 units of Scout BIkers. i'm not immediately sure where the other 80 or so points go, but those 3 units of Scout Bikers are going to out perform the Landspeeders just on their own.

What ? 3 speeders do 6D6 autohits at S5 AP-1. They can fly 20", which means they can fallback and still shoot. Even when they are completely surrounded, they can still fallback, because they can fly. How are scout bikes going to outperform that ?

Scout bikers have 22 shots mixed between S4 and S5 per 77 point unit. They're generally speaking the best dakka unit point-for-point as a Space Marines player.

Also I'm not very confident in your Land Speeder surviving whatever charges it.

Thats wrong. Scout bikers have 20 bolter shots at 12" for 102 pts. Which is dangerously close. Their shotguns are S5 at 6" which is suicide against 20 poxwalkers or 30 cultists.

The DG list is a one trick pony, backed up by only 6 command points. Cloud of flies and the dead walk again will burn through these quickly, and as you had first turn that would have been an ideal opportunity to shoot up the cultists before they had a chance to be resurrected - focus on one and force your opponent to waste more command points on passing the morale.

One or two good kiting units like the already mentioned storm raven, scout bikes or bolter inceptors and you could just sit back until he burns out, save the death company for the finishing blow rather than jump in for the alpha strike as they will just bounce off a list like this when it's at full strength.

Finally, flamer speeders are garbage. Not enough shooting per point and instead of a speed bump they will be a speed boost, as they will allow the DG to charge, pile in, kill and then consolidate towards the rest of your forces - way better than an extra normal movement phase for slow units.

1) You are putting too many points into landspeeders and DC marines with jumppack.

2) You should always bring scouts in a space marine army. Five-man squads with a power sword for the sergeant. Bolters or chainswords are both decent options. Never give them cloak of sniper-rifles.

3) The cultist squads will be very vulnerable to morale. Try to whittle the two blobs down evenly, so he wont have an obvious target for Tide of Traitors.

4) I would bring intercessors before inceptors.

5) There is no need for all the jumppacks. Remember, he will need to come to you for his army to work. Make sure to get a turn or two of rapid-fire shooting before you charge.

6) And as someone mentioned earlier: Scout-bikes are pretty decent. Better than the landspeeders at least

 Desubot wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
His army is slow, just kite and shoot. This hurt so bad because you are almost exclusively a melee force. Put a bunch of Heavy Bolters in your army and he should cry (since they're T5 with the buff you'll want the +1S over normal bolters).

Alternatively, put jump packs on your units and hold them in reserve. You can then 3D6 multi-charge for Typhus+Prince and jump over his screen. Captain Slamguinus should be enough to chew either of them up in a round of combat, leaving the rest of your army to focus on the horde.

You might want to add in Lightning Claws too. Re-rolling 5 ups doesn't actually work out too bad. Plus an extra attack to help with volume!

Parts of this work but if he's a good player you'll never to Typhus because there won't be a base's worth of space around him to land (same as the prince until he jumps out to engage).

Yeah this is the problem as he has all the tools to bubble warp him super tight.

There is always flyers

a storm talon or raven might be capable of swinging around and around for a few turns enough to take out a chunk of the bubble wrap, potentially enough to make an opening on typhus.

then your troops need to be fast and dodgy to keep kiting them.

Well, kind of. You don't need to be base-to-base, just within 1". A 2" diameter circle is actually pretty good. You might be able to exploit the rules a bit too: once you complete part of your multicharge you just need to be within 1" of a model that's within 1" to fight. I'd have to check the exact language.

Either way, you just condensed his blob a lot.

I don’t really know anything about space marines, don’t don’t you have access to the airplane that drops a bomb and you roll a dice for each model in the unit. That would be pretty good right?

Inceptors for all the bolters. Intercercessor instead of tacticals, as I found that the 2 attack base and 2 wounds each work better against pox and cultists.
Stormtalon gunship for some asscan that can't be charged, possibly with rerolls.
Kite them as much as possible and then assault as last resort/to end the enemy.
Then pray.

Scout Bikes are good too. 10 scout bikes is 250 points, and these guys can pump out 60 dice per turn at 12" and are highly mobile, T5 2W models.

Put a Chapter Master on a bike with them, and they reroll all hits. Against T3 models they'll force ~36 saves in shooting.

In general balance flies out the window when you start dealing with less than 1500 points pretty badly.

 p5freak wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

meleti wrote:Why play Landspeeders? They're bad. OP should drop them and take 3 units of Scout BIkers. i'm not immediately sure where the other 80 or so points go, but those 3 units of Scout Bikers are going to out perform the Landspeeders just on their own.

What ? 3 speeders do 6D6 autohits at S5 AP-1. They can fly 20", which means they can fallback and still shoot. Even when they are completely surrounded, they can still fallback, because they can fly. How are scout bikes going to outperform that ?

Scout bikers have 22 shots mixed between S4 and S5 per 77 point unit. They're generally speaking the best dakka unit point-for-point as a Space Marines player.

Also I'm not very confident in your Land Speeder surviving whatever charges it.

Thats wrong. Scout bikers have 20 bolter shots at 12" for 102 pts. Which is dangerously close. Their shotguns are S5 at 6" which is suicide against 20 poxwalkers or 30 cultists.

No, it's not.

Scout Bikers - two of these guys, with a twin boltgun and astartes shotgun. There's 2 of these guys in a squad, and that's 6 shots each. That's 12 shots.
Scout Biker Sergeant - Twin boltgun, astartes shotgun, and a storm bolter (you should always take the storm bolter). That's 10 shots.

Add them up: 77 points and 22 shots. Won't post individual points per model, just go read your book.

And yeah, you won't necessarily be going for the S5 shots in this situation, but you might get them in overwatch.

Captain with teeth of terra and combi flamer
Lieutenant with bolt pistol and chainsword

x5 Scouts with bolters
x5 Scouts with bolters
x5 Scouts with bolters
x5 Scouts with bolters
x5 Scouts with bolters

x5 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters.

You will table him, and take 0 losses in the process.

Are we going hardcore list tailor? Or just suggestions for a more horde-competent TAC list?

I don't think you can build a true take all comers list at 1000 points, except for one faction.

So at 1000 points just go with what is the most effective at killing what you're most likely to see.

To me, you're more likely to see lots of bodies at 1000 than you are big things. So, i'd go with that in mind. But, to each his or her own.

Thank you all for your suggestions. To summarize, i need lots of dakka, keep my distance, shoot the poxwalkers which arent covered by cloud of flies or putrescent vitality (this can protect 2 units), use rhino(s) as road block. If i get first turn shoot as many cultists as possible.

meleti wrote:
Add them up: 77 points and 22 shots. Won't post individual points per model, just go read your book.

Ok, you're right. Really not bad for 77 pts. But you have to be 12" away. Cultists move 6", and only have to charge 6". Once they are in CC, they will surround you, and thats it for your scout bikes.