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I reckon throw 6 or 7 rhinos at them to hold them up for most of the game and chip wounds off with shooting where possible. Probably best not shoot anything that will come back as a poxwalker as it'll just directly upgrade the model

Just removing one speeder for 3 bolter aggressors would make a world of difference against that list.

Whirlwindx3

For 129 points you can take a Cadian Spearhead with a Commander and 9 Mortar Heavy weapons teams using the Cadian doctrine and Take Aim! you can drop @22 wounds Against T3 Targets per turn. Of course they can still save them and then disgustingly resilient knocks that down by a third but I think that's doable and effective in a 1000 point TAC match.

I feel your pain. I tested my team tournament adepticon list vs a friends list, which is very similar to yours. His list follows:

+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/ Malefic talon, The Suppurating Plate, Wings
Psychic Abilities: Blades of Putrification
Warlord - Revoltingly Resilient

Typhus
Psychic Abilities: Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality

+ Troops +
40x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
20x Poxwalker
11x Poxwalker

+ Heavy Support +
Hellforged Scorpius w/ Combi-bolter, Scorpius multi-launcher

++ Total: [60 PL, 998pts]++

And my Primaris BA list:

+ HQ +
Librarian Dreadnaught w/ Melta Gun
Psychic Abilities: Wings of Sanguinius, Quickening

Primaris Captain:
Master-crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle, Power Sword, Veritas Vitae
Warlord - Soul Warden

+ Troops +
5x Intercessor w/ Bolt Rifle + Aux Grenade Launcher
5x Intercessor w/ Bolt Rifle + Aux Grenade Launcher

+ Elite+
Primaris Ancient w/ Standard of Sacrifice

+ Fast Attack +
3x Inceptor w/ Assault Bolters

+ Heavy Support +
10x Hellblaster w/ Plasma Incinerator

++ Total: [56 PL, 999pts]++

My opponent used same strategy you saw (The Dead Walk Again and Cloud of Flies together on his large Poxwalker squad), but the main differences were that he got the first turn, and he had fire support from the scorpion which was incredibly effective against my primaris. Ultimately after the game was over and we were calculating kill points, we realized he forgot to even place his smaller squad of cultists, which would have made a difference in how many of my models he killed before we called the game after 4 or 5 turns. I learned a few important lessons though:
1) First turn is obviously key. The ability to kill cultists without them turning into pox walkers is huge, and this will reduce his ability to counter punch you with ranged fire. As one cannot effectively control who goes first, this is a bit of a wild card.
2) Using morale to break the cultists is big. In my third turn I was able to kill 16 cultists, which would have wiped his remaining 10 in the morale phase, but he was forced to use the 2CP stratagem to keep them alive. When anything dies/runs due to morale, the poxwalkers don't get a free model.
3) I essentially kept my marines as far back as possible to keep from being engaged in close combat. I feel like this is the correct play, but I think one needs to be extremely cognizant of any objectives and the overall status of the board. In the end, I backed myself up too far to be able to get back in range of any objectives
4) Primaris with the standard of sacrifice is HUGE (I am talking "Big League" HUGE). Essentially having disgusting resilient for 2 wound models really gives staying power against those cultist blobs.

With respect to your list, your DC does not appear to be efficient. Assuming the worst case scenario that you only successfully charge one unit of cultists and you have no re-rolls, you'd be looking at 13.333 wounds after saves and another 3 to 4 from morale. You'd still have half of the unit which can swing back resulting in 1-2 dead DC. Then they can fall back the next turn to allow the other squad to potentially wipe the unit, or reduce it significantly and then wipe it up with pox walkers. I don't really see a scenario where your DC can make their points back.

I think replacing your DC and Lemartes with Whirlwinds and Inceptors would give you the firepower to burn down the blobs.

Resipsa131 wrote:For 129 points you can take a Cadian Spearhead with a Commander and 9 Mortar Heavy weapons teams using the Cadian doctrine and Take Aim! you can drop @22 wounds Against T3 Targets per turn. Of course they can still save them and then disgustingly resilient knocks that down by a third but I think that's doable and effective in a 1000 point TAC match.

Well, it looks like a good idea, but going first is also important, so i need to keep my deployment count low. Adding a cadian spearhead would increase the count by 4. His list might look at little different next time.

mokoshkana wrote:

With respect to your list, your DC does not appear to be efficient. Assuming the worst case scenario that you only successfully charge one unit of cultists and you have no re-rolls, you'd be looking at 13.333 wounds after saves and another 3 to 4 from morale. You'd still have half of the unit which can swing back resulting in 1-2 dead DC. Then they can fall back the next turn to allow the other squad to potentially wipe the unit, or reduce it significantly and then wipe it up with pox walkers. I don't really see a scenario where your DC can make their points back.

I think replacing your DC and Lemartes with Whirlwinds and Inceptors would give you the firepower to burn down the blobs.

DC has boltguns, which means 24 bolter shots at 9". Thats 16 hits, 10 wounds against T3, and 8-9 dead cultists. 12 model DC has 48 attacks after charging (2 base, +1 black rage, +1 chainsword), 32 hits, 27 wounds (wounding T3 on 2+ because of red thirst), 22 cultists dead. In theory they should almost wipe out one full unit of 35 cultists.

 p5freak wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:
With respect to your list, your DC does not appear to be efficient. Assuming the worst case scenario that you only successfully charge one unit of cultists and you have no re-rolls, you'd be looking at 13.333 wounds after saves and another 3 to 4 from morale. You'd still have half of the unit which can swing back resulting in 1-2 dead DC. Then they can fall back the next turn to allow the other squad to potentially wipe the unit, or reduce it significantly and then wipe it up with pox walkers. I don't really see a scenario where your DC can make their points back.

I think replacing your DC and Lemartes with Whirlwinds and Inceptors would give you the firepower to burn down the blobs.

DC has boltguns, which means 24 bolter shots at 9". Thats 16 hits, 10 wounds against T3, and 8-9 dead cultists. 12 model DC has 48 attacks after charging (2 base, +1 black rage, +1 chainsword), 32 hits, 27 wounds (wounding T3 on 2+ because of red thirst), 22 cultists dead. In theory they should almost wipe out one full unit of 35 cultists.

Yeah I forgot to add the extra attack and the bolters. A savvy player is going to remove cultists from the front, making your charge longer, and while you'll still have Lemartes, I'd imagine you'd need to burn 2CP for the 3d6 charge after killing some cultists with bolters. So now we are talking about 369 points and 2 CP to kill 144pts of cultists. After which, you will most likely be exposed to rapid autogun fire and Typhus' pistol. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I would think those would be capable of wiping out the DC squad.

I don't think the DC is the issue. The speeders are. I personally don't run DC at 1K, but that doesn't make them nonviable.

You want Tarantula Sentry Turrets. 37 points gets you a BS4+ platform with a TL Heavy Bolter.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think the DC is the issue. The speeders are. I personally don't run DC at 1K, but that doesn't make them nonviable.

I just don't see the DC making their points back. They will either kill one unit of cultists and then die to the shooting from the other or die from a poxwalker charge. Even if they somehow managed to kill a unit of cultists and a full poxwalker unit, they are only netting 24 pts (240 vs 120 +144). That isn't even taking Lemartes into account.

The speeders could be replaced with three whirlwinds with the Castellan Launcher which would allow for the same number of shots at 1 str higher and no AP. This would also be 27pts cheaper.

You don't have to mindlessly charge them in I can probably get their points back in this matchup. Especially with a couple of hammers in there to kill the big stuff.

The real issue is that in say an ITC combined arms matchup, the blobs could make it hard to score maelstrom points.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to mindlessly charge them in I can probably get their points back in this matchup. Especially with a couple of hammers in there to kill the big stuff.

The real issue is that in say an ITC combined arms matchup, the blobs could make it hard to score maelstrom points.

Hammers on the big stuff? If the DG is competent at all, you will never have that opportunity. They will keep Typhus and the Demon Prince surrounded, which means they cannot charged as there won't be ant room to place your models.

Also, you're spot on with having issues in objective based games.

I think the DG list is absolutely beatable, but a bunch of things will have to go correctly (like getting first turn) in order to have a shot at winning.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want Tarantula Sentry Turrets. 37 points gets you a BS4+ platform with a TL Heavy Bolter.

Now that's a good idea. A bunch of them are cheap and will definitely help give you the gunline footprint without sacrificing your initial list design.

Also with this setup going first would be good, but not really needed. Use the death guard to pound the super squad of pox walkers once all other targets (small pox squad and cultists) are dead. It could work just fine.

mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to mindlessly charge them in I can probably get their points back in this matchup. Especially with a couple of hammers in there to kill the big stuff.

The real issue is that in say an ITC combined arms matchup, the blobs could make it hard to score maelstrom points.

Hammers on the big stuff? If the DG is competent at all, you will never have that opportunity. They will keep Typhus and the Demon Prince surrounded, which means they cannot charged as there won't be ant room to place your models.

Also, you're spot on with having issues in objective based games.

I think the DG list is absolutely beatable, but a bunch of things will have to go correctly (like getting first turn) in order to have a shot at winning.

My hammers will have the opportunity if enough chaff is cleared. Also, if they keep them surrounded, they reduce their foot print. I'm fine with that.

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want Tarantula Sentry Turrets. 37 points gets you a BS4+ platform with a TL Heavy Bolter.

Now that's a good idea. A bunch of them are cheap and will definitely help give you the gunline footprint without sacrificing your initial list design.

Also with this setup going first would be good, but not really needed. Use the death guard to pound the super squad of pox walkers once all other targets (small pox squad and cultists) are dead. It could work just fine.

Castellan whirlwinds sound good, i dont agree on the tarantulas. I have a better idea. Rapier carriers with quad HB for 76 pts. 12 HB shots hitting at 3+.

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want Tarantula Sentry Turrets. 37 points gets you a BS4+ platform with a TL Heavy Bolter.

Now that's a good idea. A bunch of them are cheap and will definitely help give you the gunline footprint without sacrificing your initial list design.

Also with this setup going first would be good, but not really needed. Use the death guard to pound the super squad of pox walkers once all other targets (small pox squad and cultists) are dead. It could work just fine.

Castellan whirlwinds sound good, i dont agree on the tarantulas. I have a better idea. Rapier carriers with quad HB for 76 pts. 12 HB shots hitting at 3+.

Castellan Whirlwinds are terrible for the price.

The main benefit to the Tarantula Turrets as well is they're all able to take up separate slots, which means deploying them in several different areas.

"Castellan Whirlwinds are terrible for the price. "

Actually, they're fair. We're just used to using IG artillery as a benchmark. Ignoring LoS has saved my ass a few times.

Martel732 wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to mindlessly charge them in I can probably get their points back in this matchup. Especially with a couple of hammers in there to kill the big stuff.

The real issue is that in say an ITC combined arms matchup, the blobs could make it hard to score maelstrom points.

Hammers on the big stuff? If the DG is competent at all, you will never have that opportunity. They will keep Typhus and the Demon Prince surrounded, which means they cannot charged as there won't be ant room to place your models.

Also, you're spot on with having issues in objective based games.

I think the DG list is absolutely beatable, but a bunch of things will have to go correctly (like getting first turn) in order to have a shot at winning.

My hammers will have the opportunity if enough chaff is cleared. Also, if they keep them surrounded, they reduce their foot print. I'm fine with that.

Have you ever played a list like this? I don't want to come off as a jerk, but it's really not as simple as you're making it seem. The pox walkers will be daisy chained around the characters. A good player won't leave you a hole to get into combat. If you get first turn, you may have a shot, but if you go second, then every cultist you kill turns into a poxwalker. And the pox walkers squad he wants to live won't be targetable.

No, Castellan Whirlwinds are pretty mediocre compared to the other top tier dakka sources. Being very generous and giving you a Captain and a Lieutenant but factoring their points cost in, you're averaging 4.4 unsaved wounds on a pack of cultists for 21.6 points per wound.

Without character support:
3 Scout bikers average 8.1 unsaved wounds for 9.5 points per wound.
3 Inceptors average 8 unsaved wounds for 16.9 points per wound.
1 Tarantula Sentry Gun averages 2 unsaved wounds for 18.5 points per wound.
1 Rapier Carrier averages 5.3 unsaved wounds for 14.3 points per wound.
1 Landspeeder averages 2.7 unsaved wounds for 33.3 points per wound.

Both the Scout Bikers and Inceptors have much shorter ranges (12" and 18" respectively). The FW models both have 36" range. The Castellan's only real advantage here is its 72" range, because otherwise even with some HQs buffing its shooting it's still only shooting at just under half the efficiency of Scout Bikers.

You might be able to improve the Whirlwind a bit by taking a really inefficient model, that Landspeeder with two heavy bolters there. It's taking heavy bolters because there's no way a flamer landspeeder is getting you multiple rounds of stratagem shooting. Let's see what happens:

Whirlwind & Landspeeder (with stratagem) average 8.8 unsaved wounds for 22.2 points per wound. Yeah, you made it worse.

So, the Whirlwind really needs to rely on either its range or its indirect fire capability to be anywhere near competitive with other dakka sources.

For the record, I don't think any of these options will have a particularly high win rate against a DG mob at 1k points, but then again I wouldn't agree to play with someone's DG mob at 1k points.

edit: made an error with the stratagem calculation, gave the Landspeeder a Lieutenant on accident. It won't have one since it can't be in the parking lot. Without a Lieutenant, the Landspeeder + Whirlwind stratagem is actually worse than just taking a Whirlwind, point-for-point.

mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to mindlessly charge them in I can probably get their points back in this matchup. Especially with a couple of hammers in there to kill the big stuff.

The real issue is that in say an ITC combined arms matchup, the blobs could make it hard to score maelstrom points.

Hammers on the big stuff? If the DG is competent at all, you will never have that opportunity. They will keep Typhus and the Demon Prince surrounded, which means they cannot charged as there won't be ant room to place your models.

Also, you're spot on with having issues in objective based games.

I think the DG list is absolutely beatable, but a bunch of things will have to go correctly (like getting first turn) in order to have a shot at winning.

My hammers will have the opportunity if enough chaff is cleared. Also, if they keep them surrounded, they reduce their foot print. I'm fine with that.

Have you ever played a list like this? I don't want to come off as a jerk, but it's really not as simple as you're making it seem. The pox walkers will be daisy chained around the characters. A good player won't leave you a hole to get into combat. If you get first turn, you may have a shot, but if you go second, then every cultist you kill turns into a poxwalker. And the pox walkers squad he wants to live won't be targetable.

Yeah, I plan to commit to assault on turn 4 or 5. Not before.

So your DC are just going to be hanging around getting shot for 4-5 turns? Because you can only keep them in reserve until turn 3.

Even if you drop in turn 3 and hold off for a few turns, it won't be too hard for a winged Daemon Prince to catch them as his massive blob pushes you back further and further as you try to kite and shoot.

 meleti wrote:
No, Castellan Whirlwinds are pretty mediocre compared to the other top tier dakka sources. Being very generous and giving you a Captain and a Lieutenant but factoring their points cost in, you're averaging 4.4 unsaved wounds on a pack of cultists for 21.6 points per wound.

Without character support:
3 Scout bikers average 8.1 unsaved wounds for 9.5 points per wound.
3 Inceptors average 8 unsaved wounds for 16.9 points per wound.
1 Tarantula Sentry Gun averages 2 unsaved wounds for 18.5 points per wound.
1 Rapier Carrier averages 5.3 unsaved wounds for 14.3 points per wound.
1 Landspeeder averages 2.7 unsaved wounds for 33.3 points per wound.

A good points per wound ratio is nice, but you bikers have to be 12" away, to be in rapid fire range. Cultists move 6", which means its only a 6" charge for them. They surround the bikes, and kill them. Poxwalkers will be further away than 12", because cultists protect them. If its not my first turn he will play the dead walk again, and any dead cultist will turn into a poxwalker. Inceptors should be pretty safe from charging, as their range is 18", which means they can shoot the poxwalkers (Scout bikes can do that too, but not in rapid fire range. Inceptors always shoot the maximum number of shots, regardless of range). Even if they get charged, and are surrounded, they can fallback and shoot, because they can fly. Whirlwinds can be spread out as far as possible, because of their 72" range, making them safe from getting charged. The demon prince might go for one, but he cant kill all of them. Your calculation on land speeders is wrong. A landspeeder averages 7 hits on a cultist, wounding 4,7 times, and because of AP-1 killing 4,7 cultists. Their low range is pretty bad, they cant target the poxwalkers, but they can act as a road block. Using the unit with the best points per wound ratio is not always the best idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mokoshkana wrote:

Have you ever played a list like this? I don't want to come off as a jerk, but it's really not as simple as you're making it seem. The pox walkers will be daisy chained around the characters. A good player won't leave you a hole to get into combat. If you get first turn, you may have a shot, but if you go second, then every cultist you kill turns into a poxwalker. And the pox walkers squad he wants to live won't be targetable.

If he has 3x20 poxwalkers with typhus he can make one unit S5 and T5 with putrescent vitality, making it an unattractive target for bolters. He can protect another unit with cloud of flies. He cant protect all three units.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
So your DC are just going to be hanging around getting shot for 4-5 turns? Because you can only keep them in reserve until turn 3.

Even if you drop in turn 3 and hold off for a few turns, it won't be too hard for a winged Daemon Prince to catch them as his massive blob pushes you back further and further as you try to kite and shoot.

Yeah, it's an issue. But I'm not going to suicide them, either. A 1K BA list will probably have some CC element, and that's of limited use here for sure.

Culexus assassins and missile launchers.

How are the heavy flamer land speeders working for you? Working on a similar unit.