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I've been out of 40K for a bit since Plagueburst Crawler spam killed my enjoyment of the game but now I'm back with a less boring list to play, hopefully. I'm pretty sure I have most of it worked out but I do need feedback on a few things.

REVISED LIST IN THE COMMENTS, LEAVING THE ORIGINAL LIST FOR DISCUSSION SAKE!

Supreme Command Detachment - Chaos

Abaddon (Warlord w/ First Among Traitors)
Ahriman
Poxbringer
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoK [World Eaters]


Battalion Detachment - Alpha Legion

Chaos Lord w/ Jump Pack, Power Axe, MoK, Combi-Melta
Sorcerer w/ MoS
Sorcerer w/ MoN

40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoN


Battalion Detachment - Alpha Legion

Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoS
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoS

40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoN
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoT
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've written very extensively about the list elsewhere as it has a ton of synergies and little tricks but I don't feel like typing it all out again. The basic core is to prevent the Cultists from running away with Abaddon and buff them with the Lord and Sorcerers. Alpha Legion and the Sorcerers up their survivability quite a bit and the rest of the army is dedicated to killing what they can't kill. For that I have access to a lot of Mortal Wounds, a lot of Melta, and a good amount of melee.

PLEASE DO NOT POST ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES TO PLAY THIS LIST, THAT IS NOT A CONCERN IN MY SITUATION!

The main pushback I'm getting is whether to go Black Legion or Alpha Legion. Black Legion gives a lot more offensive oomph and lets me drop the Chaos Lord if I want to although I like the Chaos Lord since he's great against Fliers which is a big weakness of the list (Axe of Blind Fury). I think -1 to Hit makes people come to me more, which I want because of all my melee, Psychic, and Melta, and Alpha Legion also gives me access to their Strategem which wins entire games before they begin. Black Legion is more damage overall and the ability to Advance and Shoot which is very good in some games. Overall I think Alpha Legion is much better, it raises my odds of keeping a unit around for recycling, it makes IG and Tau nearly useless, and the Strategem ends games against AdMech, IG, and other parking lots. But I think it's worth getting feedback.

Another small point is if I change the Warpsmith from World Eaters to Alpha Legion. He's World Eaters for the Relic which is good against Eldar, however I don't like it as much without a pure Demon Detachment to make use of the 2d3 Mortal Wound Strategem. Moving him back gets me re-roll 1's which is certainly useful when I'm relying so heavily on these Meltas to help me out against big targets. I've spammed out Warpsmiths because they're insane for their points when you need anti-Vehicle/Monster and the Curse helps even more against Vehicles. Most of the books that are coming out soon will play at least a few Vehicles so I think they retain that value but even without that ability I love them.

Also just to answer some common questions about why not X:

Poxwalkers with DG Detachment - Changes the whole list and Poxwalkers suck offensively even with all the bells and whistles. Also way too much of a Command Point drain.

Iron Warriors - A possibility since I net Abaddon's points and he's insanely overcosted. However I think Alpha Legion is so strong with this list that it's worth his price of admission.

Obliterators/Termies/Raptors for Anti-Tank/Monster - Too expensive for the Termies and they die like nobodies business. Obliterators are a unit you need 3+ of since they're so random, I can't rely on them to get the rolls I need to drop big targets meaning they will lose me games. Raptors put out the same offense as a Warpsmith for +20pts, are less resilient, and aim worse. Their only advantage is Deep Strike which might not come into play until Turn 2-3 when the Warpsmiths will be up there anyways.

Other than that fire away, my goal is to show that Fire Raptors and Crawlers are not all Chaos can do until the next Chapter Approved.

With the black legion/alpha legion decision, you need to ask yourself how are you going to be playing these units of cultists. Are you going to be playing them aggressively, then go black legion as the alpha legion trait won’t be in full use the whole game. Or are you going to play them defensively, then play alpha legion. If you think you’ll play a bit of both, then play one battalion as black legion, the aggressive objective takers, and the other battalion as alpha legion, 2 units hanging back as objective holders, and the 3rd using the alpha legion infiltrate strategem.

Minimanj wrote:
With the black legion/alpha legion decision, you need to ask yourself how are you going to be playing these units of cultists. Are you going to be playing them aggressively, then go black legion as the alpha legion trait won’t be in full use the whole game. Or are you going to play them defensively, then play alpha legion. If you think you’ll play a bit of both, then play one battalion as black legion, the aggressive objective takers, and the other battalion as alpha legion, 2 units hanging back as objective holders, and the 3rd using the alpha legion infiltrate strategem.

Unfortunately I don't think that question is so cut and dry. Some games will be aggressive, some will be defensive. It depends a lot on what I'm up against. Splitting is an option however I think that will just lead to the Black Legion Cultists getting blown up, generally I'm not in favor of giving an opponent choices because all too often they make the right one. Personally I'm a more defensive and Scenario focused player as well which is probably why I lean towards those options.

I would fuse the two battalions (moving HQs to Supreme Command when needed), drop one cultists unit plus a warpsmith or sorcerer, and add a Daemons battalion with 2 poxbringers (one of which comes from the Supreme Command) and 3 nurgling units. It's a great screen, counters other scouts (allowing you to use the Alpha Legion stratagem better - by the way, I'd go AL over BL) and alpha strike armies, gives you the Daemonic Possession stratagem (great with the World Eaters Warpsmith), and you honestly don't lose much oomph.

With some rearrangements and a few sacrifices (probably a warpsmith, if you dropped a sorcerer earlier) you could also swap a poxbringer for a Khorne DP with Skullreaver, just to have a big bad flying guy to take care of flyers (and any other big target, really... he almost drops one IK on the charge). Less mortal wounds, but a scary mobile monster that basically rapes anything without a solid invulnerable save. Bonus style points if you have the CPs to make him fight twice when needed, or resurrect him after he's been killed by GKs . The list could look something like this:

Supreme Command Detachment - Chaos

Abaddon (Warlord w/ First Among Traitors)
Ahriman
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoK [World Eaters]
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoS [Black Legion for free rerolls]


Battalion Detachment - Alpha Legion

Chaos Lord w/ Jump Pack, Power Axe, MoK, Combi-Melta
Sorcerer w/ Combi-Melta, MoS/N

40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
39 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
39 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant (had to drop 2 cultists to make room for a combi-melta on the sorcerer, I think it's a good trade)

Battalion Detachment - Chaos Daemons

Poxbringer
Daemon Prince, wings, MoK, Daemonic Axe
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

8 CPs to play with after relics (10 if you don't need the Brass Collar, some armies have no psykers), should be enough for a few tricks. Personally, I think the tactical flexibility of nurglings makes them an auto-include in any chaos list.

Oh, btw, I need to mention that I have no idea what ITC secondary objectives are like, ITC is not used here in Italy so I never bothered to read those, I hope my suggestions don't conflict much with that format.

Then there's time issues, but you asked not to address those

Teschio wrote:
I would fuse the two battalions (moving HQs to Supreme Command when needed), drop one cultists unit plus a warpsmith or sorcerer, and add a Daemons battalion with 2 poxbringers (one of which comes from the Supreme Command) and 3 nurgling units. It's a great screen, counters other scouts (allowing you to use the Alpha Legion stratagem better - by the way, I'd go AL over BL) and alpha strike armies, gives you the Daemonic Possession stratagem (great with the World Eaters Warpsmith), and you honestly don't lose much oomph.

With some rearrangements and a few sacrifices (probably a warpsmith, if you dropped a sorcerer earlier) you could also swap a poxbringer for a Khorne DP with Skullreaver, just to have a big bad flying guy to take care of flyers (and any other big target, really... he almost drops one IK on the charge). Less mortal wounds, but a scary mobile monster that basically rapes anything without a solid invulnerable save. Bonus style points if you have the CPs to make him fight twice when needed, or resurrect him after he's been killed by GKs . The list could look something like this:

Supreme Command Detachment - Chaos

Abaddon (Warlord w/ First Among Traitors)
Ahriman
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoK [World Eaters]
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoS [Black Legion for free rerolls]


Battalion Detachment - Alpha Legion

Chaos Lord w/ Jump Pack, Power Axe, MoK, Combi-Melta
Sorcerer w/ Combi-Melta, MoS/N

40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
39 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant
39 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoWhateverYouWant (had to drop 2 cultists to make room for a combi-melta on the sorcerer, I think it's a good trade)

Battalion Detachment - Chaos Daemons

Poxbringer
Daemon Prince, wings, MoK, Daemonic Axe
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

8 CPs to play with after relics (10 if you don't need the Brass Collar, some armies have no psykers), should be enough for a few tricks. Personally, I think the tactical flexibility of nurglings makes them an auto-include in any chaos list.

Oh, btw, I need to mention that I have no idea what ITC secondary objectives are like, ITC is not used here in Italy so I never bothered to read those, I hope my suggestions don't conflict much with that format.

Then there's time issues, but you asked not to address those

Interesting suggestions. First of all the list would be 12 Command Points just like mine is now, 3+3+3+1+2(Abaddon). Secondly I probably wouldn't take the Collar and the Axe in the same game, only against like an Eldar Tank army which....isn't a thing. In ITC Missions you pick Relics/Psychic Powers/Warlord Traits before each game so it's more flexible, which I actually like a lot.

I do love Nurglings, I think they're a great unit. I'm not sure if that kind of rework is worth it for the Demon Strategem, it does open up more options for the Collar though as it then becomes good against Marines, IG, Eldar, Chaos. I also don't mind the Demon Prince, he helps against Fliers and gives me yet more Relic options since the Skullreaver is amazing. I would likely degrade the Chaos Lord in that instance to being on foot and probably using a Powerfist, although it's possible to keep him as is and buy more Relics against very specific compositions. I'm going to play with your build when I get home today and post a possible revision.

Glad you liked it, I think the loss of a warpsmith, a sorcerer and 40 cultists is heavily compensated by the tactical flexibility of nurglings, the increased effectiveness of the collar and the Khorne DP with skullreaver (nasty piece of work, 6 attacks on the charge with what amounts to a railgun build in his arm... plus one talon attack to boot). Let me know how it goes

BTW, I know the list is 12 CPs, I said 8/10 after relics (skullreaver for sure, axe and/or collar) Still a lot of CPs to play with. Oh, and I'd keep the jump pack lord as it is, you don't really need him on foot. I also think a power fists sucks on him Besides, where else are you gonna use the spare points?

I think I'm looking at this build:

Supreme Command - Chaos
Abaddon (Warlord)
Ahriman
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoK [World Eaters]

Battalion - Alpha Legion
Chaos Lord w/ MoT, Combi-Melta, Chainsword
Warpsmith w/ Combi-Melta, MoS

40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS
40 Cultists w/ Autoguns, MoS, 2 Heavy Stubbers

Battalion - Demons Undivided
Demon Prince w/ MoK, Demonic Axe, Wings
Poxbringer
Poxbringer

3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

1998/2000 Points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I decided to drop all the Sorcerers. They will likely add very little offense and in a lot of situations an opponent can just pick the other Cultist unit, or I'll fail to cast buffs, etc. This lets me keep two Warpsmiths who I think will add a lot more to the army. I mostly used the Demon Battalion but added another Nurgling unit, one of the issues with the army minus the Sorcerers is holding backfield Objectives so another Nurgling unit covers that. With four you can also completely say no to Deep Strike and that will win some games. I also put the Chaos Lord on foot so he can be a buffbot on the cheap, I don't think he's Smash Captain-y enough t justify the extra points.

In games I don't need Skullreaver or the Collar I can go Hydra Blade on the Lord which is fine. In a lot of games the Demonic Axe will be good enough but I love the option in some games, that Demon Prince will cut anything in half if Ahriman gets Death Hex going. Dropping some of the Cultists helps speed the game up, most armies can only kill one unit a turn especially with the -1 to Hit and that kind of output is unlikely to last past Turn 2. I also moved all the units over to Slaanesh just for the Stratagem.

I think this army has major potential. It also doesn't get any worse in ITC, I have more resilient Characters now in fact. I do give up more kills because of the Nurglings but I think that's okay since they're easy to hide when need be.

Personally, I think Skullreaver is mandatory, except MAYBE against a pure infantry list like some IG ones. It just adds too much oomph (and the regular axe is at -1 to hit).

I think you're right on the sorcerers, they may not be worth their points here. You do have to consider, though, that while the enemy can target an unbuffed unit, if you buff the closest one he may be force to shoot with a -1 should he decide to do that.

Finally, a question: you said that time is not an issue, can I ask how you plan on running 200-240 cultists, with rerolls to hit as well? Any tips on how to do that is greatly appreciated, since when I tried I failed miserably

Teschio wrote:
Personally, I think Skullreaver is mandatory, except MAYBE against a pure infantry list like some IG ones. It just adds too much oomph (and the regular axe is at -1 to hit).

I think you're right on the sorcerers, they may not be worth their points here. You do have to consider, though, that while the enemy can target an unbuffed unit, if you buff the closest one he may be force to shoot with a -1 should he decide to do that.

Finally, a question: you said that time is not an issue, can I ask how you plan on running 200-240 cultists, with rerolls to hit as well? Any tips on how to do that is greatly appreciated, since when I tried I failed miserably

He can use the Talon if he needs to in addition to the Axe but yes, most games he'll get the Reaver.

The Sorcerers have value and the situation you stated is likely, however when you add in needing to roll a 6 and how fast I'm going to burn CP with this list, as well as Deny the Witch, they become less appealing. I think all those factors combine to tip the scales against running Sorcerers for defensive purposes.

I'm probably going to make a video on the subject of Horde armies but basically I have trays for the entire army, pre-counted dice, and you have your opponent help you move and roll. The trays significantly speed up Turn 1 and Tide of Traitors and counted dice help with everything else. I also usually forego pointless actions like some Overwatch, some melee attacks, etc. as long as my opponent is okay with that.

Well, looking forward to the video, every time I tried extreme hordes I failed, I'd like to run them sometimes

if ur planning to run that list at any tournament good luck get past 2nd turn, pretty hard, trays or not, just too much bodies and too much dices, btw looking forward for ur vid.

 blackmage wrote:
if ur planning to run that list at any tournament good luck get past 2nd turn, pretty hard, trays or not, just too much bodies and too much dices, btw looking forward for ur vid.

Yup. It's for armies such as this that chess clocks are going to become mainstream. The new tau will destroy this list btw. Lol

perrin23860 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
if ur planning to run that list at any tournament good luck get past 2nd turn, pretty hard, trays or not, just too much bodies and too much dices, btw looking forward for ur vid.

Yup. It's for armies such as this that chess clocks are going to become mainstream. The new tau will destroy this list btw. Lol

New Tau does nothing to this army, I have the book. They cannot put out the firepower and -1 to Hit wrecks Tau still.

This army does not play slow, if someone cannot make a Horde army work that is the player's fault. I played nearly 200 Orks in early 8th Edition which was only half movement tray'd and regularly got to Turn 4 at worst. This list plays much faster because the models die more quickly and there isn't 8+ Smites to resolve every turn (takes forever to calculate the Weirdboy bonus in Green Tide).

Please don't post when you have nothing to contribute of value. Thank you.

I'm sorry, but you're quite wrong with regard to tau. Stating tau cannot put out the firepower, and leaving it at that, is like saying water isn't wet. Minus 1 to hit is a non issue. Marker lights exist.

If I were to play against this list, I would kindly ask a judge to watch the game, and note how long your turns take. You can try to spin it however you'd like, but everyone knows, and you are seemingly unwilling to admit, this army will be a headache for your opponent and unenjoyable for many. Have fun not making friends and spamming.

Its a solid list, to be sure, but you're going to get a lot of complaints, eye rolling, and disbelief, rightfully so, with your capability to play a full length game. If you think a 4 turn game is a success, I don't know what to tell you

perrin23860 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're quite wrong with regard to tau. Stating tau cannot put out the firepower, and leaving it at that, is like saying water isn't wet. Minus 1 to hit is a non issue. Marker lights exist.

If I were to play against this list, I would kindly ask a judge to watch the game, and note how long your turns take. You can try to spin it however you'd like, but everyone knows, and you are seemingly unwilling to admit, this army will be a headache for your opponent and unenjoyable for many. Have fun not making friends and spamming.

Its a solid list, to be sure, but you're going to get a lot of complaints, eye rolling, and disbelief, rightfully so, with your capability to play a full length game. If you think a 4 turn game is a success, I don't know what to tell you

Wrong based on what? Nothing. I've read the book, they gained very few tools to deal with -1 to Hit and lost their best one in Commander Spam. Markerlights that hit on 5's, at best, are not a solution when they did not change the table. Re-roll 1's doesn't get the job done. If you believe otherwise that's fine, as I said your feedback is not helping me and I have no desire to argue with someone who is not providing feedback that's valuable.

No one in my meta complains about this list or its ilk, there's way more egregious spam. I am coming from playing 9 Plagueburst Crawlers, another person plays 10. 40K is spam, I don't care if someone doesn't like my list because I play competitively, among other competitors. This list is not meant for casual league nights, none of my lists are.

I don't really care what you'd do if you played against me because you never will. I know how fast I can play the list and you've missed part of the point on my previous reply. It is extremely annoying for people to comment on something I asked them not to per the objective of this thread and then also tell me how it will work when they don't know. So please stop, once again. Thank you.

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
if someone cannot make a Horde army work that is the player's fault.

I cannot make horde armies work. And yes, it's my fault That's why I asked for advice on the matter, sorry if it derailed the conversation

Teschio wrote:

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
if someone cannot make a Horde army work that is the player's fault.

I cannot make horde armies work. And yes, it's my fault That's why I asked for advice on the matter, sorry if it derailed the conversation

No you're fine, I just can't handle arm-chair generals who love to derail topics for no reason. As I said I've gotten a lot of interest in how the army actually plays in a clocked environment so I'll make a video about it. Keep an eye on the thread in my signature.

Will do, thanks

A couple comments.

First off, Abaddon's reroll aura is pretty powerful, I would hate to see if sacrificed because legions are being mixed. Consider moving him to one of the Battalions and changing it to Black Legion.

Second... someone at my FLGS used to play 120 Cultists in 6 edition. I almost want to say that's enough - your opponent would spend a lot of firepower getting rid of them.

But if you really want to bring 240 Cultists - go at it! Walking a 40 man Cultist unit onto an objective is one of the most powerful tactics in the game, because it's very hard to dislodge them. If you have 11 CPs (which I think you do) you could use Tide of Traitors on 5 of them late game to almost guarantee a victory.

Looks murderous! I'm always interested in seeing other ultra-horde armies

What are the thoughts with the cultist marks? And which powers do you typically run with Ahriman? I'm guessing warp time?

 DoomMouse wrote:
Looks murderous! I'm always interested in seeing other ultra-horde armies

What are the thoughts with the cultist marks? And which powers do you typically run with Ahriman? I'm guessing warp time?

Marks are all Slaanesh for the double tap, nothing else gets me value usually. Ahriman will almost always have Prescience, Warptime, other. Death Hex is a big one, there's also other options.

I got in a game with the list last night against four Knights, was a complete stomp but that's to be expected. The Demon Prince killed 3 Knights by himself, the Cultists just absorbed damage. The other Knight got gang-banged with Death Hex into 5 Meltaguns and other stuff. The Cultists with Prescience + Lord + VotLW + Endless Cacophony will kill any big target with a 3+ Save and no minus to Hit, if they're in Rapid Fire which isn't bad with Warptime. It's a lot to dump into them but it really helps the list.

Gonna be making some small tweaks to the following, which I like much better:

-1 Nurgling Unit
-1 Poxbringer
-2 Heavy Stubbers
-1 Combi-Melta on the Lord

+1 Warpsmith with a Combi-Melta
+1 Bloodmaster
+1 Combi-Bolter on the Lord

This gives me +1 Melta shots and puts it on a body I can position better, I also get another Curse which will be useful in some games. There is the option of removing the Combi-Melta from the World Eaters Warpsmith and moving it onto the Lord to pick up the re-roll, however I need to see where he is positioned most games.

Dropping the Poxbringer loses me a Psychic Power I don't want, usually he's just going to be a Smite. Instead I pick up a better fighter who has multiple damage and can wound T7 on 4's, he can also get the Demon Prince higher and the Demon Prince gives him accuracy. I never wanted the Heavy Stubbers and dropping one Nurgling unit makes me better off in the ITC Missions.

I think that's pretty close to the optimal version of the army. As far as Vehicle lists go I'm only really scared of good BS long range once which don't....exist, especially in the ITC. 2-3 Fliers is still hard if they're Storm Ravens or Fire Raptors. T4+ with 2+ Saves are also still an issue but outside of Custodes that's against not really something that's out there which can put out the needed damage.

Thanks, it's really interesting to know some of the synergies and tactics. As a horde guard player it's intriguing seeing cheap fearless infantry running around, particularly when I have enough lasguns to field something similar!

Had you considered an exalted champion at all? Full re rolls to wound seem pretty powerful, even if you have to charge to unlock them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also how do you think the list would fare against some of the other nastier lists out there, e.g. 5+ dark talons, 5+ flyrants with twin devourers and the Ynari reapers + spears combo.

Yeah, the Khorne DP murders Knights like there's no tomorrow... I think he is absolutely needed in a list like this, to take care of the really tough targets. Lots of low power shots are nice, meltas are great, but sometimes you just need to take something down, and you can't go wrong with 6 attacks on a rerollable 2+ with S11, AP-4 and D1d6 (plus mortal wounds on a 6 to wound...)

Personally, I don't see much value in the Bloodmaster. I would remove a poxbringer and one nurglings unit to add another warpsmith, jump pack and power axe to the lord (with the option for axe of blind fury if needed, and it often will be. It's just one CP after all). Add heavy stubbers or a single nurgling base as you see fit to round the list up to 2000.

@DoomMouse - Nah the Exalted Champion is good when you need a cheap CSM HQ but the list really isn't meant for melee, even with re-rolls. They aren't worthless but there's other things I think add more value. As for how it fairs I think well against most lists. Tyrants I could drop 3+ in a turn fairly easily, more is well within reason and they cannot keep up with that pace. Ynaari is about to get kicked in the nuts this month so we'll see how they look after that, the Spears version is gone though. Loads of Fliers would be rough but I don't think that's a tournament list, it's just too risky in general and even worse in the ITC.

@Teschio - I just disagree with those slight adjustments. The Jump Pack is aggressively meh, I'd have to be truly desperate to throw that Lord into a Flier because he's not going to kill it, period. Mass Fliers is just not a thing, he can get The Hydra Blade as is which is good enough when needed. The Bloodmaster is a good fighter on his own and he has synergy to and from the Demon Prince, which I like. I don't want to gear for Fliers too much, they really aren't that good and Fire Raptors are going to take it in the face sooner or later and that's the last popular one. I'd rather take Diabolic Strength to combo with The Hydra Blade, it's just a good spell in the list when Death Hex isn't needed. Very rare to need both those spells.

Fair enough! Hopefully Ynari will be toned down a bit... I think you might be underestimating the nids a bit personally though. They'll always be able to get a first good punch at your core - drop in close enough to kill the nurglings but largely safe, then soar out and unleash 150+ S6 shots turn 2. Shadow in the warp with lots of denials can throw a spanner in psychic shenanigans. Meltaguns only do on average 1 wound to a flyrant at 12". Autoguns aren't ideal against T7 13 wounds. just think it might be an uphill fight, and I'm unsure how you'd kill 3 a turn.

You wouldn’t stand a chance vs 8 flyrants + 2 mawlocs, all deep striking in. Pumping out over 100 str6 shots a turn. They all have access to smite, and with shadow in the warp helps to shut down more of your powers.

However you’re playing ITC, me and DoomMouse play ETC where Flyrant Spam is currently dominating, and horde armies aren’t too much in sight of top placings. Apart from the insane poxwalker horde (200 cultists and 40 poxwalkers), using the 2 strat combo (the dead walk again and cloud of flies I think is the second).

 The Prince of Excess wrote:

@Teschio - I just disagree with those slight adjustments. The Jump Pack is aggressively meh, I'd have to be truly desperate to throw that Lord into a Flier because he's not going to kill it, period. Mass Fliers is just not a thing, he can get The Hydra Blade as is which is good enough when needed. The Bloodmaster is a good fighter on his own and he has synergy to and from the Demon Prince, which I like. I don't want to gear for Fliers too much, they really aren't that good and Fire Raptors are going to take it in the face sooner or later and that's the last popular one. I'd rather take Diabolic Strength to combo with The Hydra Blade, it's just a good spell in the list when Death Hex isn't needed. Very rare to need both those spells.

The jump pack would be for mobility rather than attacking flyers, to be honest. Sometimes you may need the lord in a certain position. Attacking flyers is just a bonus (he may not kill one, but he may weaken it or finish it off), as is the fact that you can fall back and still unleash glorious melta in the face if needed Deepstriking him is also a nice option, especially in those games when you use the alpha legion stratagem to start with cultists in advanced positions. Overall, I think no single use for jump pack is worth its points, but since it has several uses, it all adds up and makes it a solid choice.

Hydra blade is a great weapon, but you lack high strength attacks, I still think the axe would be better. It's mainly a matter of personal preference, anyway, the blade is still a very solid choice. I just wouldn't know where to use those 5 points anyway... Diabolic Strength is also quite wasted on this guy, regardless of which weapons he uses, when you could buff Abbadon instead and turn him into a killing machine (7 S12 attacks, plus 1d6 S7 ones...). Sometimes, though, Abbadon may not be where you need him to be, and the lord could be (especially with a jump pack )

The bloodmaster hits harder than a poxbringer (not against single wounds models, though: the poxbringer is better against them), but I think overall he is weaker since he's not a psyker. And defensively, there's no contest. As for buffing the DP, this is hardly important: it would only be relevant on the first turn of combat against T6 models, in case the bloodmaster is within 6" of a flying character... I suspect in the vast majority of games this will not happen at all.

We're talking about small tweaks, though. I think we agree on the core of the list.

So chaos is the new IG?

I like the list just a stupid question why the warp smiths? I haven’t seen your other threads so sorry if I missed it. Thanks

rrll wrote:
So chaos is the new IG?

No. They don't play even remotely similar. The fact that they are both based on models with similar stats and gear does not make them the same thing, or even close to each other. If anything, masses of fearless infantries with some nasty hitters hidden inside could be closer to some Tyranid lists than IG ones.

swanson4969 wrote:
I like the list just a stupid question why the warp smiths? I haven’t seen your other threads so sorry if I missed it. Thanks

I think I can answer that, even though it's not my list...

95 points for 2 melta shots (the basic meltagun and the extra combi-melta), that hit on a 2+, usually rerollable. Plus a flamer, and some CC presence. And one "free" mortal wound a turn to vehicles. All on a model that can't be targeted except by snipers (and even snipers have a hard time wih him, he saves non-mortal wounds on a 2+). Yes, they won't repair his vehicles (he doesn't have any), but they are still a bargain for their effectiveness. In a list with tons of chaff, you need some hard hitters, and they fill that role nicely.

As for the World Eaters one, he is there for the brass collar. Extremely nice relic, especially if paired with the Daemon stratagem Daemonic Possession (2D3 mortal wounds on a Peril). Psykers within 24" will be VERY careful about what they cast...