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Hi! I’ve noticed that quite a lot of flyers come with oval bases. Many of these have a the pivot then move rule with the associated crash if not moving a minimum move. My question here is: when it says pivot, then move, do the interim placement of the model have to be legal? As a pivot is around it’s own center spot, it would be quite easy for a single model to stop the flyer from turning, even if it’s presence during the actual move would be ignored?

For example: a thunderbolt heavy fighter is at an angle so that it’s minimum move would force it of the table. A sneaky opponent charges it with a landspeeder,placing its base in contact along the front oval curve of the flyer base the flyer has to turn towards. As I see it, the player controlling the flyer can’t pivot to a legal position and the flyer is forced of the board and dies, or could the player controlling argue that the flyer can fall back, ignoring models on the ground and make a “theoretical” pivot before flying of?

And to continue, could 5 guardsmen on the ground, more than 1 inch away do the same thing as the flyer is forced within 1 inch during the pivot before flying of?

Having the fly keyword mean they ignore models whislt moving it would be hard to argue that pivoting isnt moving

Gremmer wrote:
Hi! I’ve noticed that quite a lot of flyers come with oval bases. Many of these have a the pivot then move rule with the associated crash if not moving a minimum move. My question here is: when it says pivot, then move, do the interim placement of the model have to be legal? As a pivot is around it’s own center spot, it would be quite easy for a single model to stop the flyer from turning, even if it’s presence during the actual move would be ignored?

For example: a thunderbolt heavy fighter is at an angle so that it’s minimum move would force it of the table. A sneaky opponent charges it with a landspeeder,placing its base in contact along the front oval curve of the flyer base the flyer has to turn towards. As I see it, the player controlling the flyer can’t pivot to a legal position and the flyer is forced of the board and dies, or could the player controlling argue that the flyer can fall back, ignoring models on the ground and make a “theoretical” pivot before flying of?

And to continue, could 5 guardsmen on the ground, more than 1 inch away do the same thing as the flyer is forced within 1 inch during the pivot before flying of?

Models that FLY can move over other models when moving. Pivoting is part of the move. Now, if you somehow block all possible exit positions, then you could do that. For example if you somehow manage to cover a 90 degree spread of 20"-30" for a damaged flyer, so it can't end a move in a legal position.

ian wrote:
Having the fly keyword mean they ignore models whislt moving it would be hard to argue that pivoting isnt moving

No argument there, but to clarify: the rule states that you first pivot, then move. As such, a model in base contact at the thinnest point on an oval base would stop you from first pivoting, as before you move the model your bases would overlap

Models with FLY can move over enemy modes. So they can pivot just fine. This has come up before in other threads and isn't a viable tactic, as the Core Rules permit the Flyer to just move over you, and as pivoting is moving they can do that too.

Gremmer wrote:

ian wrote:
Having the fly keyword mean they ignore models whislt moving it would be hard to argue that pivoting isnt moving

No argument there, but to clarify: the rule states that you first pivot, then move. As such, a model in base contact at the thinnest point on an oval base would stop you from first pivoting, as before you move the model your bases would overlap

Incorrect. The Pivot is defined as part of the move.

"Each time this model moves, first pivot..."

The phrase "move the model straight forwards" is not saying that only the forward movement is "movement", it's just saying to move the model in a straight line as part of the procedure "Each time this model moves".

So, not only can you block a flyer by moving where it would end its movement, killing it because it cant move, you can also prevent a flyer from pivoting just by moving next to it, staying away a tiny bit more than 1". Without pivoting it could be forced to fly off the table, or forcing it to move where enemy models already are, which means flyer is destroyed. Wow, flyers who cant hover, and have a minimum move distance, become more and more less attractive. These movement rules are ridiculous. Hopefully this changes in the FAQ.

 p5freak wrote:
So, not only can you block a flyer by moving where it would end its movement, killing it because it cant move, you can also prevent a flyer from pivoting just by moving next to it, staying away a tiny bit more than 1". Without pivoting it could be forced to fly off the table, or forcing it to move where enemy models already are, which means flyer is destroyed. Wow, flyers who cant hover, and have a minimum move distance, become more and more less attractive. These movement rules are ridiculous. Hopefully this changes in the FAQ.

Except this is the complete opposite of the truth.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, not only can you block a flyer by moving where it would end its movement, killing it because it cant move, you can also prevent a flyer from pivoting just by moving next to it, staying away a tiny bit more than 1". Without pivoting it could be forced to fly off the table, or forcing it to move where enemy models already are, which means flyer is destroyed. Wow, flyers who cant hover, and have a minimum move distance, become more and more less attractive. These movement rules are ridiculous. Hopefully this changes in the FAQ.

Except this is the complete opposite of the truth.

Explain please.

Rulebook p177. Units with FLY can move across units as if they were not there. The pivot is part of movment.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Rulebook p177. Units with FLY can move across units as if they were not there. The pivot is part of movment.

Yes, but the flyer has to end its movement more than 1" away from enemy models. If it cant do that its destroyed. If there are enemy models 1.000000000000001" away from it on one side front and end of the base, it cant pivot, it would be forced to fly in a straight line. If it leaves the table its destroyed. If there are enemy models, and it cant end its movement more than 1" from them, its destroyed.

But it can pivot. Because it ignores units when moving.

 p5freak wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Rulebook p177. Units with FLY can move across units as if they were not there. The pivot is part of movment.

Yes, but the flyer has to end its movement more than 1" away from enemy models. If it cant do that its destroyed. If there are enemy models 1.000000000000001" away from it on one side front and end of the base, it cant pivot, it would be forced to fly in a straight line. If it leaves the table its destroyed. If there are enemy models, and it cant end its movement more than 1" from them, its destroyed.

Except they can ignore the other models when they pivot. You're ignoring that pivoting is part of moving. See above for explanations to save re-typing things.

Ok, got it. Pivoting is moving, FLY ignores enemy models when moving.

 p5freak wrote:
Ok, got it. Pivoting is moving, FLY ignores enemy models when moving.

Yup, that's the one!

 p5freak wrote:
Ok, got it. Pivoting is moving, FLY ignores enemy models when moving.

The rule states you cannot "end a move" within 1" of enemy units.

Pivoting is part of the movement, and not necessarily the end of movement.

Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move
characteristic consisting of two values.
The first is the model’s minimum speed
– in the Movement phase, all parts of
the model’s base must end the move at
least that far from where they started.
The second is its maximum speed – no
part of the model’s base can be moved
further than this. If a model cannot make
its minimum move, or is forced to move
off the battlefield because of its minimum
speed, it is destroyed and removed from
the battlefield – the model has either
stalled and crashed or been forced to
abandon the battle.

When is a flyer actually off the battlefield ? Is it already off the battlefield when 0.1" of its base is over the edge of the battlefield ? I didnt find anything in the FAQs about it. I didnt look through all the faction related FAQs though. I would say that the flyers entire base must be off the battlefield.

 p5freak wrote:

Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move
characteristic consisting of two values.
The first is the model’s minimum speed
– in the Movement phase, all parts of
the model’s base must end the move at
least that far from where they started.
The second is its maximum speed – no
part of the model’s base can be moved
further than this. If a model cannot make
its minimum move, or is forced to move
off the battlefield because of its minimum
speed, it is destroyed and removed from
the battlefield – the model has either
stalled and crashed or been forced to
abandon the battle.

When is a flyer actually off the battlefield ? Is it already off the battlefield when 0.1" of its base is over the edge of the battlefield ? I didnt find anything in the FAQs about it. I didnt look through all the faction related FAQs though. I would say that the flyers entire base must be off the battlefield.

If it's not totally on the battlefield I'd argue it's off. In other threads this came up, and the battlefield is a largely common sense concept. It isn't defined in any particular way. It's a long-standing convention that models must be totally on the table, for simple practical reasons - models hanging off the edge can fall off! Lest a RAW At All Costs adherent take me to task over this, it's HIPWI, and good luck finding anything in the rules anyway! The battlefield is either entirely obvious to you, or "Ill-defined" depending on your world view. Discuss with your opponent pre-game and cross your fingers they don't attempt to get cute about it.