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OK, birthday coming up, I think I'll get myself a box of chaos. Warp talons/raptors to be specific.

I have an IW army with a 10 man raptor squad and am thinking of doing these as 5 warp talons.

Since I have 10 raptors already and am a little light on fast attack and cc specialists as is does this seem right? I think so.

I've only used my WT once. They were very underwhelming. They missed the charge off deep strike, then we're subsequently shot to pieces. I used a squad of 8.

 chimeara wrote:
I've only used my WT once. They were very underwhelming. They missed the charge off deep strike, then we're subsequently shot to pieces. I used a squad of 8.

Jump pack sorcerer drops with them, uses warp time.

Obviously that's a lot of points to drop, but as part of a bigger strategy it can be worth it. Deny overwatch to multiple units, if you can then get the WT in to melee with all those units then the rest of your army can charge in also free of overwatch.

It's niche, but I'd still take Warp Talons as they look much cooler imo.

I find generally speaking it helps to have Deep Striking units because they're fast, flexible and they're not on the table to be explodified when you lose the roll for the first turn. Raptors are nothing amazing, but you can bring in a couple of special weapons and some combi-weapons to do some shooting. They still suck ass in close-combat.

I have two squads of seven Raptors. They get a decent amount of use and they're not spectacularly expensive points-wise. When going full crazy I will bring in a jump pack sorcerer and my jump pack lord with them.

Prob want some sort of speed daemon herald with em to bump strength

If Khorne-marked, a nearby Herald of Khorne (Bloodmaster, Skullmaster, “Chariotmaster“ whose name I forget) will grant the Warp Talons +1S and re-roll charges if the locus is active.

Not as good or guaranteed as Warp Time, but something to think about.

Sitting at one attack makes them very underwhelming, even with lightning claws. it would be better to warp time a bigger threat.

Their true powers is in shutting down overwatch, and is primarily only usefull if you just deep struck a lot of units that will be rolling charges. You deep strike warp talons, and warptime them, then assault OVER that first buffer line of infantry, and tangle up multiple units in CC. This wrecks guard, and seriously messes with Tau 'for the greater good' shenanigans.

But it's really only worthwhile if you have multiple units following up trying to roll those 9" charges.

Warp talons should have gotten 2 attacks base, and then they would be a serious consideration. There might be some decent Daemon herald synergy somewhere... Khorne or Nurgle locus would help them.

I prefer Raptors as special weapon drops.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Warp talons should have gotten 2 attacks base, and then they would be a serious consideration. There might be some decent Daemon herald synergy somewhere... Khorne or Nurgle locus would help them.

I prefer Raptors as special weapon drops.

Raptors may be even more underwhelming in melee but they are costed correctly and have definitive uses. I like you use two squads just as tank busters with melta and it has yet to fail me. I also mark them with nurgle and use them as LD busters in my Night Lords army. Overall a far better unit.

Warp Talons work best if you run Daemon allies as they can get the bonuses off the allied characters.

They both are not very good TBH.

Warp Talons are kind of mediocre, but you gotta remember they double dip from Chaos Marine and Daemon buffs. Also, there’s plenty of armies whose close combat defense is decimating you with overwatch first, and these guys will completely neuter that. Always, always have a way to get them into combat though. They’re too expensive and too fragile to sit in the open.

Warp Talons having 1 base attack where is the love seriously?

They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

 Galas wrote:
They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

Ugh, such a shoddy version...

Fewer attacks, no high strength/cheap weapon option, worse invuln save...

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

Ugh, such a shoddy version...

Fewer attacks, no high strength/cheap weapon option, worse invuln save...

Chaos tax is alive and well in 8th. And this unit is one of the hardest taxed. They will always be gak in combat due to one attack, lightning claws and +1str from a allied herald help somewhat, but no where near enough to make them a viable combat unit.

This being said the most I could come up with to make them useful is to drop them in beside a Blood Thrister so they get the locus of Khorne to re-roll failed charges and shut down overwatch for a multi charge, just make sure to charge with the talons first so you can shut down overwatch from that unit then charge the blood thirster. Throw in a bloodthrone for a extra CP and you will pretty much gib the shootiest units in the game. That is a ton of points tho so maybe forgo the Thrister if points are a issue. It also helps greatly to make them World Eaters for the extra attack. This is the best I can come up with.

OR.................... another option with better chances of completing the charge would be to drop a Thousand Sons Terminator sorc with a familiar and the +1 cast warlord trait. You take warp time on the sorc with either death hex or treason of tzeentch. Also drop a herald to give the talons a nice buff of a possible +1str, Toughness or attack with Boon of Change. You should take them as a nightlord detachment to debuff leadership and mark them tzeentch so they can be buffed by your demons and 1ksons detachment. Treason is normally a bad spell but becomes a good spell when combo'd with nightlords to take control of a nearby charecter and bring more pain to the party. Drop in a herald of Tzeentch to give the talons locus and +1 str for cheap.

Of those two combos I would probably go with the World Eater Talons + Thrister wombo combo. But the Thousand Son/Nightlord version looks interesting and fun as well. Either way you need a soup list to make them viable.

Other than that I am out of ideas.

Sounds fun, if nothing else.

I could not get them to make their points back. Ended up refurbishing the warp talon squad into a pair of sorcerers and raptors. 7man raptors with melta is pretty nice since they can get cover, have speed, and can fly over bubble wrap.

Renegade can even advance over bubble wrap, shoot a tank at -1 then hide in melee.

In my experience, Raptors are best used in a Nurgle or Slaanesh army, while Talons are better in Tzeetch and Khorne.

Nurgle gives Raptors HILARIOUS amounts of anti-morale debuffs, Slaanesh increase their shooting output

Khorne gives buffs to their melee, and Tzeetch allows psychic powers that can defend them while getting to CC.

Don't underestimate either of these. While I prefer Warp Talons, Raptors are pretty good too. Warp Talons should be played in minimum squads, and that's all. They aren't super great as a unit in a vaccum (still better than chosen), but their ability to just ignore overwatch can allow all your other melee units to get in to melee without worrying. They're a great utility unit for assault armies, but if you aren't playing hard assault then raptors are just as good.

 vaklor4 wrote:
In my experience, Raptors are best used in a Nurgle or Slaanesh army, while Talons are better in Tzeetch and Khorne.

Nurgle gives Raptors HILARIOUS amounts of anti-morale debuffs, Slaanesh increase their shooting output

Khorne gives buffs to their melee, and Tzeetch allows psychic powers that can defend them while getting to CC.

Don't underestimate either of these. While I prefer Warp Talons, Raptors are pretty good too. Warp Talons should be played in minimum squads, and that's all. They aren't super great as a unit in a vaccum (still better than chosen), but their ability to just ignore overwatch can allow all your other melee units to get in to melee without worrying. They're a great utility unit for assault armies, but if you aren't playing hard assault then raptors are just as good.

The problem is that one unit of Warp Talons will only shut down overwatch for one unit once per game. Its more of a scalpel imho, or that is how I would use them. I am probably now going to pick up a box for my world eater/khorne demons project. But I would never run more than 2 groups of 5. The price of lightning claws really makes taking these guys sting the pocket book.

Agreed. Lightning claws and Flamer weapons are still too overpriced.

I have Raptors with Flamers that I'm about to hack and turn into Plasma Pistol carriers instead. (I hated scatter dice and Blasts in 7th, but LOVED the teardrop template) The Idea is to drop with the Lord and screen. With reroll ones, a single plasma shot is pretty safe for Overcharge. Lord also drops in with a Plasma and Melta squad that hunt vehicles.

Table wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

Ugh, such a shoddy version...

Fewer attacks, no high strength/cheap weapon option, worse invuln save...

Chaos tax is alive and well in 8th.

Chaos have some amazing units and Marines have some terribly costed ones. For instance, point for point Berzerkers are superior by some margin to pretty much anything Marines can muster in melee. It's all swings and roundabouts.

Yes, these units are underwhelming. Maybe poor even. That doesn't mean Chaos is downtrodden.

Table wrote:The problem is that one unit of Warp Talons will only shut down overwatch for one unit once per game. Its more of a scalpel imho, or that is how I would use them. I am probably now going to pick up a box for my world eater/khorne demons project. But I would never run more than 2 groups of 5. The price of lightning claws really makes taking these guys sting the pocket book.

I suppose they could be useful to absorb the overwatch for a Bloodletter bomb, but a minimum unit of 5 Warp talons costs almost as much as 20 Bloodletters, so I don't know if it's worth it. Maybe if they're attacking Dire Avengers or big units with flamers.

Night Lord Raptors with Icons of Despair are one of the stars of the CSM Codex IMO. I like them with 3 plasma pistols, since they need to be within 1" of an enemy to get the extra -1 LD. Two squads of 5 with a jump pack lord maximizes the LD debuff (-5!) and makes their plasmas safer to overcharge. Kill a handful of enemies and let the LD bomb take care of the rest.

Atlatl Jones wrote:

Table wrote:The problem is that one unit of Warp Talons will only shut down overwatch for one unit once per game. Its more of a scalpel imho, or that is how I would use them. I am probably now going to pick up a box for my world eater/khorne demons project. But I would never run more than 2 groups of 5. The price of lightning claws really makes taking these guys sting the pocket book.

I suppose they could be useful to absorb the overwatch for a Bloodletter bomb, but a minimum unit of 5 Warp talons costs almost as much as 20 Bloodletters, so I don't know if it's worth it. Maybe if they're attacking Dire Avengers or big units with flamers.

Night Lord Raptors with Icons of Despair are one of the stars of the CSM Codex IMO. I like them with 3 plasma pistols, since they need to be within 1" of an enemy to get the extra -1 LD. Two squads of 5 with a jump pack lord maximizes the LD debuff (-5!) and makes their plasmas safer to overcharge. Kill a handful of enemies and let the LD bomb take care of the rest.

Nightlords fly under the radar. As strong as they are they do have a few hard counters and I think because of that they take a back seat to Alpha Legion (which also has a few hard counters).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

Table wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

Ugh, such a shoddy version...

Fewer attacks, no high strength/cheap weapon option, worse invuln save...

Chaos tax is alive and well in 8th.

Chaos have some amazing units and Marines have some terribly costed ones. For instance, point for point Berzerkers are superior by some margin to pretty much anything Marines can muster in melee. It's all swings and roundabouts.

Yes, these units are underwhelming. Maybe poor even. That doesn't mean Chaos is downtrodden.

Chaos Marines are in a far far far better place than we were in 7th. The tax was very real in that edition. It is true that bezerkers are quality but it is hard to look at vanguard vets and then warp talons and not say that chaos tax exists. While marine choices may be worse than zerkers I would wager the gulf between them is not anywhere near the distance that Warp Talons to Vang Vets have. I will also admit that old attitudes from previous editions are still in the mix. As I said overall there is not much to complain about for CSM. Its just that WT's are such a cool idea and have a nice model its rough to see them shafted in both 7th and now 8th.

Stux wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I've only used my WT once. They were very underwhelming. They missed the charge off deep strike, then we're subsequently shot to pieces. I used a squad of 8.

Jump pack sorcerer drops with them, uses warp time.

Obviously that's a lot of points to drop, but as part of a bigger strategy it can be worth it. Deny overwatch to multiple units, if you can then get the WT in to melee with all those units then the rest of your army can charge in also free of overwatch.

It's niche, but I'd still take Warp Talons as they look much cooler imo.

For extra giggles, have the Sorceror give them Prescience as well.

In my experience, you only NEED to shut downoverwatch once for it to matter. And 5 warp talons can indeed shut down more than one unit, its real easy. Not every army is guard that has units spanning 8 inches long.

Table wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

Table wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They should have 2 attacks base. They are supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Vanguard Veterans.

Ugh, such a shoddy version...

Fewer attacks, no high strength/cheap weapon option, worse invuln save...

Chaos tax is alive and well in 8th.

Chaos have some amazing units and Marines have some terribly costed ones. For instance, point for point Berzerkers are superior by some margin to pretty much anything Marines can muster in melee. It's all swings and roundabouts.

Yes, these units are underwhelming. Maybe poor even. That doesn't mean Chaos is downtrodden.

Chaos Marines are in a far far far better place than we were in 7th. The tax was very real in that edition. It is true that bezerkers are quality but it is hard to look at vanguard vets and then warp talons and not say that chaos tax exists. While marine choices may be worse than zerkers I would wager the gulf between them is not anywhere near the distance that Warp Talons to Vang Vets have. I will also admit that old attitudes from previous editions are still in the mix. As I said overall there is not much to complain about for CSM. Its just that WT's are such a cool idea and have a nice model its rough to see them shafted in both 7th and now 8th.

Fair enough. It does feel like edition lag, one underpower unit does not make a tax. Overall Chaos is pretty darn healthy this edition, probably stronger than loyalist marines when you look at everything, so it just felt pretty weird to see a claim like that!