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I know this will probably strike a few funny bones, but it needs to be said.

GW probably didn't have a choice. And it isn't terrible that they would allow players to use their old models, but it has to go. It creates confusion and disrupts any ongoing attempts at lasting changes to codexes.

GW's hands are tied so it's up to the "governing bodies" of 40K to act on this one.

I was thinking about this with a burgeoning Slaanesh Daemons army.

I could either take a herald, which is all the Codex has, or a Herald on a Chariot, which is in the Index. For their points, the Herald on the Chariot is ridiculously better, in most ways. I can't ever think of a reason not to take it.

But I want to keep to the Codex. It feels weird handicapping myself over one HQ choice in one book that shouldn't even be valid anymore, but I don't want to buy Index: Chaos just for one unit, even if it is the "meta" choice.

So in other words: something should be done, yes.

No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

No model, no rules. Does it really change how your army works though? GW might find the time to fill out slots with new stuff in the future, but I don't think it's fundamental to making the codex good.

Personally I see it going away once all the codices are released, and GW is "caught up" in terms of releases. Once that is done, I could very easily see GW going back through and releasing new models for some of those options and put them back in the codex, while the ones they don't wanna make official models for just go away.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

No model, no rules. Does it really change how your army works though? GW might find the time to fill out slots with new stuff in the future, but I don't think it's fundamental to making the codex good.

I mean yeah its not like people got to keep vortex grenade assasins in terminator armor on a bike from way back when.

at some point id hope they make new kits (especially all the bike kits as they are fairly dated)

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Personally I see it going away once all the codices are released, and GW is "caught up" in terms of releases. Once that is done, I could very easily see GW going back through and releasing new models for some of those options and put them back in the codex, while the ones they don't wanna make official models for just go away.

I would like to see this: Imagine for a moment, a kit with the options to build an number of character options on bike? captain, librarian, apothecary, chaplain, or even a lieutenant? Heck, Just make it a single "Build a Character" Kit and include jumppacks as well. I'm sure people would buy it for bits alone.

Ralis wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Personally I see it going away once all the codices are released, and GW is "caught up" in terms of releases. Once that is done, I could very easily see GW going back through and releasing new models for some of those options and put them back in the codex, while the ones they don't wanna make official models for just go away.

I would like to see this: Imagine for a moment, a kit with the options to build an number of character options on bike? captain, librarian, apothecary, chaplain, or even a lieutenant? Heck, Just make it a single "Build a Character" Kit and include jumppacks as well. I'm sure people would buy it for bits alone.

That kid would cost like $40 so i doubt it...

And there is not really any evidence they'll sunset the datasheets... i mean they released codexes with no models already.

 Marmatag wrote:

And there is not really any evidence they'll sunset the datasheets... i mean they released codexes with no models already.

Oh?

i guess normal lieutenants. any other? edit: wait nvm there are lieutenants though they dont sell it

So... why?

Like, I get not liking the way things are now, but is this an improvement even by your own standards?

Is it less confusing to have one set of rules vs different tournaments only partially applying GW's FAQs?

Does what tournaments, attended by a tiny minority of players, do even have an impact on GW's ability to make "lasting changes to codexes"?

Dionysodorus wrote:
So... why?

Like, I get not liking the way things are now, but is this an improvement even by your own standards?

Is it less confusing to have one set of rules vs different tournaments only partially applying GW's FAQs?

Does what tournaments, attended by a tiny minority of players, do even have an impact on GW's ability to make "lasting changes to codexes"?

Less a subset of tournaments doing it and more changing the culture of the community to not think in terms of that FAQ.

As to why - it's a constant gotcha and crutch when trying to discuss codexes and the direction they should head in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

No model, no rules. Does it really change how your army works though? GW might find the time to fill out slots with new stuff in the future, but I don't think it's fundamental to making the codex good.

Except that now it's "maybe model, maybe rules".

I bought a defiler recently ready to build it with twin hb magnetized to twin lascannon, options it has in the codex I'd just bought, and the model came with neither.

My daemon prince, by contrast, has a warp Bolter modeled on him - like all dps from the plastic kit do. No rules.

My Terminator sorceror, again I had to convert to his new equipment options, cutting off the weapons that DO come in the friggin box to do so because he doesn't have those any more.

And my exalted sorcerors, despite coming in a full size kits with a million billion bits, have exactly one build by the rules...but they can have a plasma pistol, which is in NO thousand sons kit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Less a subset of tournaments doing it and more changing the culture of the community to not think in terms of that FAQ.

As to why - it's a constant gotcha and crutch when trying to discuss codexes and the direction they should head in.

Well, if instead of wanting tournaments to just do this you're wanting the community as a whole to reject the idea of using datasheets that aren't in a codex, I think you're just screwed. There's no constituency for that. Disallowing them has a huge impact on players who are using them. Allowing them has almost no impact on players who aren't using them, except insofar as they object to playing against people using them. But most players are going to object to playing against things for reasons that have nothing to do with this -- people primarily don't like when they feel that something is too strong or is unfluffy -- and they'll often have no idea that stimulant injectors no longer appear in the support systems list, for example, so even if they object to the particular thing being used they won't connect this to the FAQ.

The community is going to think in terms of that FAQ because almost everyone you play with is going to be willing to abide by it, and not being willing to abide by it if someone else really wants to use it is going to get you branded TFG. And, circling back, I don't see what a few big tournaments have to do with that.

sorry, but I need some context; what datasheet faq are you talking about, and what is wrong with it?

I personally wouldn't mind. I survived the great HQ Drukhari purge and could easily settle with codex only models.

 carldooley wrote:
sorry, but I need some context; what datasheet faq are you talking about, and what is wrong with it?

Last sheet of this.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

It circumvents the codexes. e.g. GW removed Stimulant Injector as an available system in the new Tau Codex, but people can say they'll just use the index rules with codex prices or vice versa for other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


Except that now it's "maybe model, maybe rules".

I bought a defiler recently ready to build it with twin hb magnetized to twin lascannon, options it has in the codex I'd just bought, and the model came with neither.

My daemon prince, by contrast, has a warp Bolter modeled on him - like all dps from the plastic kit do. No rules.

My Terminator sorceror, again I had to convert to his new equipment options, cutting off the weapons that DO come in the friggin box to do so because he doesn't have those any more.

And my exalted sorcerors, despite coming in a full size kits with a million billion bits, have exactly one build by the rules...but they can have a plasma pistol, which is in NO thousand sons kit.

Yes, very true, but i'm less concerned about the ephemeral "no model, no rules" thing than I am about a consistent set of rules to discuss.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

GW probably didn't have a choice. And it isn't terrible that they would allow players to use their old models, but it has to go. It creates confusion and disrupts any ongoing attempts at lasting changes to codexes.

Meh. If you're "confused" that a Riptide can still take a stimulant injector, I don't know how you'll survive playing 40k...especially at a tournament level. Sure, it's a complicated ruleset and this adds to it, but it's nowhere near a level where the complexity is so high that it needs parsed.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
sorry, but I need some context; what datasheet faq are you talking about, and what is wrong with it?

Last sheet of this.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

It circumvents the codexes. e.g. GW removed Stimulant Injector as an available system in the new Tau Codex, but people can say they'll just use the index rules with codex prices or vice versa for other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


Except that now it's "maybe model, maybe rules".

I bought a defiler recently ready to build it with twin hb magnetized to twin lascannon, options it has in the codex I'd just bought, and the model came with neither.

My daemon prince, by contrast, has a warp Bolter modeled on him - like all dps from the plastic kit do. No rules.

My Terminator sorceror, again I had to convert to his new equipment options, cutting off the weapons that DO come in the friggin box to do so because he doesn't have those any more.

And my exalted sorcerors, despite coming in a full size kits with a million billion bits, have exactly one build by the rules...but they can have a plasma pistol, which is in NO thousand sons kit.

Yes, very true, but i'm less concerned about the ephemeral "no model, no rules" thing than I am about a consistent set of rules to discuss.

then what is the point of any more rulebooks? if we can stick to older interpretations of rules, anyone going to bring their squats back?

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

GW probably didn't have a choice. And it isn't terrible that they would allow players to use their old models, but it has to go. It creates confusion and disrupts any ongoing attempts at lasting changes to codexes.

Meh. If you're "confused" that a Riptide can still take a stimulant injector, I don't know how you'll survive playing 40k...especially at a tournament level. Sure, it's a complicated ruleset and this adds to it, but it's nowhere near a level where the complexity is so high that it needs parsed.

That's not what I said, but carry on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:


then what is the point of any more rulebooks? if we can stick to older interpretations of rules, anyone going to bring their squats back?

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this?

If tournaments do it, that's the right of the TO to decide what they want to do with thier event. BUT and this is where I take issue with it. "changing the culture of the community to not think in terms of that FAQ. "

I have a considerable number of legacy eldar sculpts that only see play because that DC page exists. They are not from some age of the mists of time, and one of them was even bought during 8th itself ( the made to order autarch)

Tournaments is one thing, but I think you underestimate just how important that sheet is for everyone else.

I want to bring the squats back!!!

Painting mine for that day.

And the more options the better.

I see these min and max tournament players in all sorts of games. They want to know all the rules, all the possible opponents, the likely power combos etc.

Then they want to min/max the info so they can prepare to take down all likely comers.

Frag that.

They should make all the 1st or qualifying rounds come with prepackaged armies. Like chess. [of course GW would have to have lots of pre painted units so that it could be a thing) This is what you drew...this is what you play. Now let the dice and the best general decide who moves on.

Not who can build the best list for whatever edition. Those players blow....and I mean blow the fun out of the game.

If they are good players then they will play with a pre packaged army provided by the TOs. IF they suck that bad...they will not make it to the next lvl where they can showcase their armies.

If they did this....more people would focus on learning to play tactics even if they don't know the armies. Thus better players...not better copy/paste list designers.

rant over...and I don't play tournaments...just my feel listening to the net over the past year.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
If tournaments do it, that's the right of the TO to decide what they want to do with thier event. BUT and this is where I take issue with it. "changing the culture of the community to not think in terms of that FAQ. "

I have a considerable number of legacy eldar sculpts that only see play because that DC page exists. They are not from some age of the mists of time, and one of them was even bought during 8th itself ( the made to order autarch)

Tournaments is one thing, but I think you underestimate just how important that sheet is for everyone else.

And I totally have sympathy for that. I don't want to screw you over, but at the same time I don't think those things necessarily belong. You could make some cases for a few though, I'm sure.

Perhaps Chapter Approved 2018 will have the rules for those missing units in the codex (with updated stuff) and then say "Indexes aren't valid anymore"? A lot of people will have at least a copy of CA2018 anyway

I bought my las-cannon and auto cannon dread venerable dread after the index dropped. Totally legal in the index, all Gw parts (forge world autocannons). This isn't some 3rd edition legacy model (which I have plenty of) but a new purchase done so under the understanding that this model is legit in 8th edition.

GW is dumb as rocks for invalidating that purchase less than 2 months after I made it because they can't keep straight what they released in the index vs codex.

If the changes are made for balance reasons then up the points, change the rules, you know balance. The "no model, no rules" approach is one of the biggest issues I have with 8th ed. I love converting and making my guys my guys and have always felt limited by being forced to use the options given to me in a box.

But I do agree that at this point it is getting ridiculous. GW has shown they are not proficient enough with technical writing to get the RAW to agree with the RAI so I can understand your side of the coin. But since I'm 100$+ invested in keeping the rules as they are I have a pretty substantial bias towards allowing something that was legal at the beginning of 8th to remain legal.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

No model, no rules. Does it really change how your army works though? GW might find the time to fill out slots with new stuff in the future, but I don't think it's fundamental to making the codex good.

I'd have a lot more sympathy for this statement if I didn't already own these models, many of which were official gw models. So these aren't options without models, gw just doesn't make them anymore

My demo charge guardsmen, my power axe armed commissar, my shotgun company commanders, etc. Etc. All official models that would essentially be paperweights if that took effect.

Because tournaments tend to influence casual metas. You screw over older players

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No they shouldn't
Speaking as a csm player i lost alot of HQ options going from index to codex
Why should spezz muhteens get to keep their captain on bike yet gw on its stupid mentality decided to get rid of lords and sorcerors on bikes and demonic mounts?

No model, no rules. Does it really change how your army works though? GW might find the time to fill out slots with new stuff in the future, but I don't think it's fundamental to making the codex good.

Which would be fine if GW actually took a stance and remained consistent. Grandmaster Dreadknight and Exalted Champion are two datasheets that come to mind that don't have an official model - I know there are others but can't think of them.

The whole IP saga is detrimental to the hobby and as others have said, screws over long time collectors who have elaborate conversions etc that can't be used anymore because "it's not on the shelf"

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
If tournaments do it, that's the right of the TO to decide what they want to do with thier event. BUT and this is where I take issue with it. "changing the culture of the community to not think in terms of that FAQ. "

I have a considerable number of legacy eldar sculpts that only see play because that DC page exists. They are not from some age of the mists of time, and one of them was even bought during 8th itself ( the made to order autarch)

Tournaments is one thing, but I think you underestimate just how important that sheet is for everyone else.

And I totally have sympathy for that. I don't want to screw you over, but at the same time I don't think those things necessarily belong. You could make some cases for a few though, I'm sure.

There isn't a polite response to this, because you are exactly wanting to over long time collectors that play in casual metas that are still influenced by tournament decisions. You stated exactly that.

Try this: pick one of the most characterful units in your army. Now pretend it just disappeared because a new box was released with far less options and no legacy support. Fun, isn't it?

stop trying to ruin the little bit of hobby spirit left in this lawyer-driven IP rights debacle

If GW were to update their model line sufficiently, or show some common sense, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Losing some esoteric character/wargear combo isn't the worst thing in the world. However, we have situations like Blood Angels not being able to take a Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack because there's no model for it, so I don't see this idea gaining any traction at all. Seriously, that's about the easiest conversion you could ever do but it's now not in the Codex because...reasons?

There are too many sensible options and upgrades that would be affected by this change to make it a realistic prospect. If tournaments are going to start banning certain things then a blanket ban is pretty much never the answer.

No. What needs to be done is GW to put the damn rules back into codex. But nope. They don't care about making a good game so they don't.

tneva82 wrote:
No. What needs to be done is GW to put the damn rules back into codex. But nope. They don't care about making a good game so they don't.

Agreed. GW need to stop hiding behind their piss-poor excuse of "it confuses new players". They don't want to have any competition, so they can't have options they don't make the models for. I think GW could have just said, officially and in the rulebook, "Sorry, no more legacy support, use your old models as 'counts as' " and be done with it.

However, this half and half approach is the worst solution they could have done. The big "competitive" tournaments need to ban index entries and wargear for codex armies IMHO and leave the index entries/combos for casual play.