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A friend of mine swears the codex didnt help tau. He thinks those 20+ reduction in points is irrelevent, the strats and septs arent good enough and refuse to believe he needs to play infantry heavily instead of playing an army of mostly suits and tanks.

What do I say? I WANT to argue he is wrong and its not the codex, but I dont know enough about it.

It's better than the index, but it's not going to beat soup lists, guard and alitoc eldar.
You can build hammerheads to work but they are midling on their own.
Crisis suits are still overpriced but it sounds like he's committed to a suit only army and GW isn't allowing that anytime soon.

This is the hordehammer edition. It's in direct contrast with the previous herohammer editions of yore. It's evident in every tournament list and tactics thread I've ever read.

If he can't see that, then I'm not really sure there's any way to help him. Too often when discussing this game logic just kind of goes out the window.

Maybe try swapping armies for a game, but if you don't go your way and win, it'll probably just further cement whatever beliefs he's got going on.

When I say he goes all suits, its not 100% of his list. But bringing 4 units of infantry and then the rest of a 2k list being suits and tanks still says tankhammer to me

Deepstiking or placed on the table?
Are his hammer heads rail or ion and is he playing one as lpng strike if not he's giving you insane advantage by playing dumb. The codex isn't half as powerful as 7th's busted riptidewing etc BS it's and uphill battle to compete with the tournament kings but it's better than the index and spacemarine codex (excluding guilliman) IMHO.

Just picked up the Codex today and after having a quick look I'm glad I got some Fire Warriors to go with my Battleforce box. Gonna need at least another squad I think and some Pathfinders.

Ice_can wrote:
Deepstiking or placed on the table?
Are his hammer heads rail or ion and is he playing one as lpng strike if not he's giving you insane advantage by playing dumb. The codex isn't half as powerful as 7th's busted riptidewing etc BS it's and uphill battle to compete with the tournament kings but it's better than the index and spacemarine codex (excluding guilliman) IMHO.

Ion, DPing crisis suits and nothing else, and none of his units are bubblewrapped. Also no longstrike.

And my icons are World Eaters. You figure out how one sided that is when he doesnt wrap.

If ge knows he is fighting world eaters bezerkers playing that list he might as well not even roll. He sounds like he needs to change army and come back to tau when his heart is in it.

3 batallions with 9 5x fire warriors and 3 commanders is where he should start.

3 more HQ's - I say take long strike and 2 fireblades to make sure you have +1 shot on all your fire warriors - plus an additional 2+ to hit marker.

Where you go from there is completely debateable.

Ion heads and Rail broadsides are really good now. Sniper drones are good. Skyray is good. Ghostkeels are good.

Everything else is middling at best. Stormsurge/riptide got cheaper and better but are still not good enough to see competitive play.

Crisis suits remain trash (this is the main source of tau angst) everyone having at least 12 crisis suits they never get to play with because they have been horrible since 8th dropped.

One word, Coldstar.

One more word, Ion weapons are the new plasma

Final word - build a list with a lot of CP!

 vaklor4 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Deepstiking or placed on the table?
Are his hammer heads rail or ion and is he playing one as lpng strike if not he's giving you insane advantage by playing dumb. The codex isn't half as powerful as 7th's busted riptidewing etc BS it's and uphill battle to compete with the tournament kings but it's better than the index and spacemarine codex (excluding guilliman) IMHO.

Ion, DPing crisis suits and nothing else, and none of his units are bubblewrapped. Also no longstrike.

And my icons are World Eaters. You figure out how one sided that is when he doesnt wrap.

Personally I'd recommend him taking a few ghost keel with ATS/counterfire defense system with cyclic ion raker and 2x burst cannons and place them behind units of fire warriors. The zerkers will get aboslutely wrecked before they even get into combat. Then it will be 1 sided the other way.

Running tau sept - I'm not even sure dedicated close combat armies will be able to compete with tau. ESP with how cheap the fire warrior is.

The codex DIDN'T help Tau.

It didn't address the core issues (suits, commanders, playstyle//army theme, the fact that they shoot like orks against -1 to hit (but have zero melee in exchange), the markerlight table sucking (and "you need to hit the unit in the first place, to get a bonus to hit (aka good luck getting markerlights off against -1 to hit armies))); it just cheapened a few things here or there [infantry], gave some mostly pointless stratagems/septs, and that's really about it.

At this point, they're just Xenos Astra Militarum - and they'd be better off just playing AM for that instead.

What your friend is *meaning*, but not saying, is that "it didn't help Tau enough in the way that I want to play them.

Honestly, it's a poor argument. If your friend isn't willing to be reasonable, it's not worth arguing.

Maybe good advice for some of us on the forums, lol.

"I didn't try anything and it didn't work, GW won't help Tau!"

Your friend is 100% correct the codex is trash, they should sell their models and pick up mono grey knights. They are sooo much better than Tau.

Or maybe they should open the book and read it. Index Tau was not complete trash, it was just out paced by any codex easily. People got fixated on commander spam. It was fine as an index just not top tier competitive.

Is it broken? No
Is it underpowered? No

The codex offers a lot of cheap little tricks, there is a lot of nuances. Look at the stratagems being offered, most of our note worthy buffs are there.

Look at units that have been ignored. Find what can bring missles, they are golden. Marker lights find and use them there are hq, elite , fast attack, troop and stratagems.

The only two crap things in the codex, they are the commander limitations. As well as the crisis suits could use a point reduction. i do think parts of the codex are lazy AF.

It is true there are less competitive options like in every codex. It is true that how i want to play is not exactly feasible, but a coldstar with 4 fusion can pop across the board and wreck face. Jump shoot jump does exist if more limited and expensive, it is still there.

Drones are not the darling units of the index but drone controller n drone. Oh there is some wonderful potential.

The fluff is great.

Tell your friend to look at the interplay of how things work together. It can look like a janky rube goldberg machine initially, but all the tools are present for competitive play, i would put in on par with the nid codex.

I totally agree - it is right about where tyranids is. Which I think we can call "balanced" at this point in the game. I'm not sure it has as good of internal balance as nids but overall about the same power level if you go for the strong builds.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I totally agree - it is right about where tyranids is. Which I think we can call "balanced" at this point in the game. I'm not sure it has as good of internal balance as nids but overall about the same power level if you go for the strong builds.

Eh, I think Flyrants might be a better list than anything Tau have got. But it's still early and I need many more games under the Tau codex.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I totally agree - it is right about where tyranids is. Which I think we can call "balanced" at this point in the game. I'm not sure it has as good of internal balance as nids but overall about the same power level if you go for the strong builds.

I second this. It seems very solid with the potential to play fairly strong and casually without an issue. Sure, I have some nitpicks (agree that crisis suits need fixed) but overall it seems quite a reasonable codex.

 meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I totally agree - it is right about where tyranids is. Which I think we can call "balanced" at this point in the game. I'm not sure it has as good of internal balance as nids but overall about the same power level if you go for the strong builds.

Eh, I think Flyrants might be a better list than anything Tau have got. But it's still early and I need many more games under the Tau codex.

Interesting - this is probably going to be my first matchup with my tau - I will let you know how it goes. One thing is for sure - geensteelers are going to struggle against tau.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I totally agree - it is right about where tyranids is. Which I think we can call "balanced" at this point in the game. I'm not sure it has as good of internal balance as nids but overall about the same power level if you go for the strong builds.

I second this. It seems very solid with the potential to play fairly strong and casually without an issue. Sure, I have some nitpicks (agree that crisis suits need fixed) but overall it seems quite a reasonable codex.

Uninspired but reasonable.

Tau arent super gamebreakingly strong but theyre a solid army
Lots of options now available. He needs to be taking fire warriors. Personally ive been running a brigade with a neurochip eqipped fireblade and making use of the strategems
All.over the place. Strategems seem to be where a lot of the strength of tau lie. Bramched.nova and all round buffs make the riptide solid. The stormsurge is fairly decent. And fire warriors are quality. Tau are a combined arms faction. Spamming just suits isnt going to work and if hes deepstriking against world eaters...then well... it sounds like he wants to play a "netlist" inspires crisis suit ion spam and it isnt turning into an I win button for him. Tau are pretty solid. They just arent a faction which is going to play itself. Which is good. Other thsn crisis suits being overcotsed I think the tau codex is overall decent and a level that more codexes could do with being. No the sept traits arent amazing but they shouldnt be like bloody alaitoc/alpha legion/raven guard/mars

A few of the people in my area who play Tau love the new codex and the synergies that can be achieved.

One person I know who doesn't like the codex was a Taudar WAAC individual in 6th and Riptide & friends wing in 7th.

Coincidence? Perhaps. Some will like it, some won't - as is the way with every codex.

The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

Silver144 wrote:
The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

I'm not sure you've read the codex, let alone played it.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

I'm not sure you've read the codex, let alone played it.

Have some arguments beside personal offence?

the codex doesnt suck, as much as he refuses to play the tau how theyre designed this edition. markerlights are much easier to use with the 1 CP strategem that adds D3 to the counter list. we can run stupid amounts of screening units (last game I tried out kroot hounds and they more than made up their points against a space Marine player). basically the only thing that didnt get a buff was the crisis suit(which is my favorite too) but pretty much everything else seems very playable

Silver144 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

I'm not sure you've read the codex, let alone played it.

Have some arguments beside personal offence?

Yeah. Tau stratagems are almost universally amazing. Especially since they almost universally cost 1CP.

Firewarriors don't need to stand still to get the best bonuses. The best bonuses for firewarriors are a drone that just needs to stay in range and cadre fireblades that need to do the same.

Breachers are great if you build for them.

The answer is don't play 80 firewarriors. play 30-40 max and get more pathfinders and other support units. The codex has more great units than firewarriors and commanders. Use them. Broadsides are great. Hammerheads are good. Pathfinders are amazing. Ghostkeels, stealthsuits, etc etc...

It's packed with options. Do more then spam one thing and do more than stand still.

 Lance845 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

I'm not sure you've read the codex, let alone played it.

Have some arguments beside personal offence?

Yeah. Tau stratagems are almost universally amazing. Especially since they almost universally cost 1CP.

Firewarriors don't need to stand still to get the best bonuses. The best bonuses for firewarriors are a drone that just needs to stay in range and cadre fireblades that need to do the same.

Breachers are great if you build for them.

The answer is don't play 80 firewarriors. play 30-40 max and get more pathfinders and other support units. The codex has more great units than firewarriors and commanders. Use them. Broadsides are great. Hammerheads are good. Pathfinders are amazing. Ghostkeels, stealthsuits, etc etc...

It's packed with options. Do more then spam one thing and do more than stand still.

I didn't find good strategem beside doubleshoot for the violra infantri and only the closest target, ignoring damage table (typicall almost for every codex), and +d3 markerlight (bondage on broken machanics). There are lots of wierd 1cp strategems, like 2d6 running for pathfinders with losing shooting (what? Wtf is that?), or reroll charge for kroots if the hounds already charged (lol), or don't shoot with your commander (you know, the only one reliable shooting unit in your army restrickted to 1/detach) to buff another battlesuit unit(not even a stormsurge). Wat? Can we get something, you know, usefull?

Silver144 wrote:

I didn't find good strategem beside doubleshoot for the violra infantri and only the closest target, ignoring damage table (typicall almost for every codex), and +d3 markerlight (bondage on broken machanics). There are lots of wierd 1cp strategems, like 2d6 running for pathfinders with losing shooting (what? Wtf is that?), or reroll charge for kroots if the hounds already charged (lol), or don't shoot with your commander (you know, the only one reliable shooting unit in your army restrickted to 1/detach) to buff another battlesuit unit(not even a stormsurge). Wat? Can we get something, you know, usefull?

Silver, buddy. You're hurting me here.
Lets go through them all, there's a lot of good ones.

Uplinked Markerlight (1 CP): Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has been hit by a markerlight fired by a model from your army. Place d3 + 1 markerlight counters next to that unit instead of only 1.
Ace. Flat out good.

Breach and Clear! (1 CP): Use in the Shooting phase, when a Breacher Team is about to shoot an enemy unit in cover. They reroll all failed wound rolls.
There's a lot of ways in 8th to reroll hits, not many to reroll wounds. A little situational, but very godd in that situation.

Branched Nova Charge (1 CP): Overcharging a Riptide's Nova Reactor grants it two buffs instead of one.
Definitely makes the mortal wound worth it. No question.

Wall of Mirrors (1 CP): In the Movement phase, select a XV25 Stealth Suit unit within 6" of a XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit. It can be removed and redeployed via deep striking anywhere within 12" of the Ghostkeel (and with the typical deep strike limits). If the XV25 was engaged in close combat, this does not count as falling back.
With the Homing Beacon now dropping at the start of the movement phase you can use this Stratagem to reposition your stealth suits before dropping the beacon. Pretty cool. Also just really good for catapulting suits an extra 12".

Stimulant Injector (1 CP): Replaces the old wargear option. Pick a BATTLESUIT with a maximum wounds of 10 or more (i.e. a Riptide or a Ghostkeel; Stormsurge isn't a battlesuit) at the start of your turn. That unit ignores all the negative effects of having taken any wounds (BS penalties, etc.) until either it dies or the turn ends.
Good for squeezing that last bit of juice from a Riptide your opponent assumes is useless thanks to wound penalties.

Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite (1 CP): Used before a battlesuit unit shoots, enemy units cannot claim cover saves from that unit.
Eh. Once all your markerlights are dead in the last few turns this could be quite useful.

Fail-safe Detonator (1 CP) : Use when Battlesuit unit from your army is destroyed in fight phase. Roll a dice for each unit within 3” and on a 4+ it suffers a mortal wound.
Nah, if it were 2cp for d3 it'd be worth it, but at 1cp for 1 it's not.

Automated Repair System (2 CP): Battlesuit or Vehicle regains D3 lost wounds.
Well, there goes the downside of using the Nova Reactor. Also half wounds back on commanders and broadsides.

Neuroweb System Jammer (2 CP): At the start of the enemy shooting phase, pick an enemy unit within 18” of a Battlesuit Commander; subtract 1 from to hit rolls made for that unit this phase.
Is that superheavy lining up to blow apart your lines? Not anymore it's not. Although a bit useless outside of this.

Repulsor Impact Field (1 CP) : After opponent successfully charges a Battlesuit unit, roll a dice for each model in the enemy unit within 3” of your unit and 6s deal a mortal wound.
Pretty good for clearing units, especially if you roll well. And increases suiit survivability for the one turn they're in combat.

Command and Control Node (1 CP) : Commander cannot shoot, but a Battlesuit unit in your army within 6” can re-roll wounds.
The commander is no longer the only good shooting platform. You might want to buff other suits, like riptides or broadsides. Just picture it, three broadsides rerolling wounds for 1CP. Glorious.

EMP Grenade (1 CP) : When throwing a photon grenade, only make a single hit roll, and if it hits, the grenade deal D3 mortal wounds against an enemy vehicle.
Very nice for killing vehicles.

Hunting Grounds (1 CP) : If a Kroot Hound unit successfully completes charge, Kroot units within 12” can re-roll charges. Not that you might need your screen to run somewhere.
Meh. Can't see it being used.

Support Turret Replacement (1 CP) : If a Turret has been destroyed for a Fire Warrior team, it can be replaced.
Oh look, mobile strike teams aren't punished any more.

Point Defense Targeting Relay (1 CP): Vehicle can overwatch on 5s and 6s.
Just flat out good.

Emergency Dispensation (1 CP/3 CP): Standard extra relics.

Orbital Ion Beam (3 CP) : Can only be used on a Commander that has not moved or Manta Striked in the preceding movement phase. Pick two points on the battlefield 2D6” apart and draw a line between them. Each unit suffers D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (characters 5+).
If someone clumps up HQs and buff givers it could be good.

Recon Sweep (1 CP) : Pathfinder team can move 2D6” in the shooting phase, but cannot shoot or charge.
Eh. Pathfinders are support, not screens.

Positional Relay (2 CP) : start of movement phase, pick a recon drone and a unit of the same sept that has been set up in a manta hold. That unit can set up within 6” of the recon drone.
Oh look, a homing beacon that can move and doesn't need to be set up.

Sept-Specific

T'AU- Focused Fire (3 CP): When a unit with the T'AU Sept keyword inflicts an unsaved wound on an enemy in the shooting phase, add +1 to wound for all other shooting attacks made against that enemy by anyone who shares the same Sept.
Don't you just love being able to wound Knights on a 4+ with only basic infantry?

BORK'AN- Experimental Weaponry (1 CP): When firing a weapon with a random number of shots (e.g. the Stormsurge's Pulse Driver Cannon), you can reroll one of the dice for the shot number.
Don't forget that in matched play, Strategic Discipline rule prevents you from using a stratagem more than once per phase. This stratagem allows you to keep your generic reroll stratagem for another use in the phase (for example, reroll to Hit for a railgun or a fusion blaster).

DAL'YTH- Strike and Fade (1 CP): Pick a unit at the start of your shooting phase. That unit may move 6" after it shoots as if it had another movement phase (it may not advance with this extra move).
It's JSJ, with everything that entails.

VIOR’LA- Hot Blooded (2 CP): Select an infantry unit; it can shoot twice this phase, but must target the closest enemy unit each time.
With Rapid Fire weapons, this practically amounts to giving them FRFSRF from the Imperial Guard. At S5. And at 30".

SA’CEA- Orbital Marker Distribution Uplink (2 CP): Pick an enemy unit visible to a character. That unit and all units within 6” gain a markerlight counter.
Boom, all the markerlights!

FARSIGHT- Drop zone clear (2 CP): Select a battle suit unit that was setup using a manta strike ability this turn and add +1 to hit rolls for that unit.
Note that this Stratagem cannot be used with Homing Beacons or the Positional Relay Stratagem as these lead to the unit performing a "Low Altitude Drop" instead of a Manta Strike. This makes an otherwise very good stratagem a bit meh.

Silver144 wrote:
The problem with current tau is that there is no fun in playing this army the way GW force. Firewarriors are most boring infantry unit in the game, just stand still and throw the dice.
Especially when most bonuses works only if you stand still in movement phase. Those who recommend play firewarrior spam probably never play with 60-80 fw, I tried, this is awfully boring. The codex have couple good strategems, but they are sept-specific, so usually you have just one, and you army is massive stand and shoot horde. Boring to play against, boring to play with, poor codex.

I disagree with this - you are encouraged to move into the enemy to triple your firepower (cadre buff) - I'm not sure there could be a better incentive to move your fire warriors forward.

We have really different levels of taste on what is good. To me most of it variate from "ok", "situational" to "too situational to be actually used", "overcosted" and "bad".

My point is that this strategems do not add you good game expirience, they just fix the broken rules (markerlight), or give you some reaction options (-1 to hit on one enemy in their shooting phase, 6+ mortal wounds after you was charged). Nothing to add to actual tactic. It's just boring to play.

And the one with commander: first - no way you will pick commander without weapons(and if you give him weapons, shoot it, do not waste entire turn) and spend 5+CP just to give some unit reroll to-wounds. And no way you are going to put 3 broadsides in one unit, its around 450 point! And you need 3 heavy support to fill that brigade detach, so anyone will take them separately to fill the required slots.