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Hey all!

In our game yesterday it happened that a SM captain rode in a rhino and was using his "Brillant strategist" warlord trait to regain his CP.

I was sure that I read somewhere that only models that are actually on the table can use auras or warlord traits but I can't find it.

Any help here, please?

It may be legal. Under the transport rules it states that a model may not effect units while on board but it doesn't say that you can't use warlord traits that don't effect units. So RAW what he did was legal. RAI I'm not so sure since the intent seems to be that while you are embarked you can't do anything except if a rule specifically says you can.

RAW this is not legal.

The trait says "If your Warlord is on the Battlefield".

The Warlord is not on the battlefield.

A lot of people assume that a model in a transport is on the battlefield but they simply aren't. The embarking rule specifically says to remove the model from the battlefield, so that's totally clear. It would only count as on the battlefield if there was a rule that said that specifically, which there isn't in this case.

EDIT: There is a rule that specifically clarifies that Auras and abilities with a range cannot be used, it's in the core rules again. But that clarification does not mean that other abilities that require a model to be on the battlefield can be used.

Hm.. I think warlord traits cannot be used in the pre-game to regain CP if the warlord is not actually on the table at that point, or? Maybe the same thing could count in this constellation?

Hankster_de wrote:
Hm.. I think warlord traits cannot be used in the pre-game to regain CP if the warlord is not actually on the table at that point, or? Maybe the same thing could count in this constellation?

As I say, this trait explicitly says the Warlord must be on the Battlefield anyway.

As for using it from a transport, I wish it was legal! I would be bias that way, as I play Dark Angels. But unfortunately it is not.

The Ultramarines trait states:

Adept of the Codex:

Whilst your Warlord is alive, roll a dice each time
you spend a Command Point to use a Stratagem;
on a 5+ that CP is immediately refunded.

In this case it is not exactly clear if he has to be on the battlefield...

Anything embarked on a transport is considered NOT to be on the battlefield. It cant do anything, cant be affected by anything. Only exception is a special rule allowing it. You cant use warlord traits while embarked.

Stux wrote:

Hankster_de wrote:
Hm.. I think warlord traits cannot be used in the pre-game to regain CP if the warlord is not actually on the table at that point, or? Maybe the same thing could count in this constellation?

As I say, this trait explicitly says the Warlord must be on the Battlefield anyway.

I wish it was legal! I would be bias that way, as I play Dark Angels. But unfortunately it is not.

There was an FAQ from the same ability in the Custodes FAQ. You cna use pre-game the FAQ states as long as the warlord is deployed you cna use this trait to gain back CP's. The key word they use is deployed.

My understanding of that faq answer and the wording of the rules are as follows and my opponents often agree. If I set up my warlord in reserve no I do not get his warlord trait to regain CP's. If it is pre game and he is deployed and still setting up other units I can use it. If he is deployed but embarked in a vehicle you can use the warlord trait but not any of the aura abilities on his war gear or abilities lists.

You may disagree but myself and my opponents upon reading th FAQ and rules agree this is how it works.

I agree you can use it during deployment after the Warlord is deployed, I'm not contesting that at all (though I understand that might have been confusing from the structure of my previous post! Will edit it to clarify).

But you DEFINITELY can't use it while embarked in a transport. There may be similar abilities that are worded differently and allow it, but Brilliant Stratagist cannot be used while your Warlord is not on the Battlefield and they are not on the Battlefield while in a transport. No two ways about that.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Hankster_de wrote:
Hm.. I think warlord traits cannot be used in the pre-game to regain CP if the warlord is not actually on the table at that point, or? Maybe the same thing could count in this constellation?

As I say, this trait explicitly says the Warlord must be on the Battlefield anyway.

I wish it was legal! I would be bias that way, as I play Dark Angels. But unfortunately it is not.

There was an FAQ from the same ability in the Custodes FAQ. You cna use pre-game the FAQ states as long as the warlord is deployed you cna use this trait to gain back CP's. The key word they use is deployed.

My understanding of that faq answer and the wording of the rules are as follows and my opponents often agree. If I set up my warlord in reserve no I do not get his warlord trait to regain CP's. If it is pre game and he is deployed and still setting up other units I can use it. If he is deployed but embarked in a vehicle you can use the warlord trait but not any of the aura abilities on his war gear or abilities lists.

You may disagree but myself and my opponents upon reading th FAQ and rules agree this is how it works.

Actually the custodes FAQ reads: Yes, provided Captain-General Trajann Valoris is on the battlefield when you use the Stratagem."

The rules for embarked models state: "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side"

Therefore I'd say it can't be used.

Agreed.

If you want to houserule it for your group, awesome. I can understand why your group might feel it justified. But it is not RAW

Stux wrote:
I agree you can use it during deployment after the Warlord is deployed, I'm not contesting that at all (though I understand that might have been confusing from the structure of my previous post! Will edit it to clarify).

But you DEFINITELY can't use it while embarked in a transport. There may be similar abilities that are worded differently and allow it, but Brilliant Stratagist cannot be used while your Warlord is not on the Battlefield and they are not on the Battlefield while in a transport. No two ways about that.

I can see it both ways. from an emersion POV it makes sense you do get it. Because the warlord who's in the transport is still giving out orders and moving his men around and commanding his army etc. But you are right he isn;t on the battlefield per say, but he is deployed as you have to declare him deployed in transport in the pre game set up.

I can see both ways and I will never argue too much about it in game. My advise if you believe it is and your opponent doesn't simply roll off. 123 you cna get the CP's back 456 you can't

You shouldn't have to roll off for it. This isn't ambiguous RAW, it's RAW Vs an opinion of how it should work.

Stux wrote:
You shouldn't have to roll off for it. This isn't ambiguous RAW, it's RAW Vs an opinion of how it should work.

We all know RAW isn't always intended or clear cut. It's why forums like this and threads like this exist. To discuss opinions. The definite answer is if you don't quite understand the RAW email workshop and they will tell you. I did that with a rule regarding a stratagem one of my BA opponents has and they replied in 3 days, can't quite remember the question as it was when the codex first came out but it's always an option.

Sure, but I don't see how this is such a case or how that is relevant. The RAW is clear cut here, the steps follow logically without ambiguity.

Trait says you have to be on the battlefield + transport rules say you are not on the battlefield = you can't use the trait.

It's elementary.

Stux wrote:
Sure, but I don't see how this is such a case or how that is relevant. The RAW is clear cut here, the steps follow logically without ambiguity.

Trait says you have to be on the battlefield + transport rules say you are not on the battlefield = you can't use the trait.

It's elementary.

If you wan't to be right be right. I can't debate too much I don't use transports so it has nil affect on me. But if my opponent had this ability and I believed he couldn't and they believed they could I would just roll off I wouldn't discuss too much, it's not game breaking ability, not like that bloody extra hit's with flamers on 6+ thread that's going on.

Stux wrote:
Sure, but I don't see how this is such a case or how that is relevant. The RAW is clear cut here, the steps follow logically without ambiguity.

Trait says you have to be on the battlefield + transport rules say you are not on the battlefield = you can't use the trait.

It's elementary.

You're missing a subtle distinction. The trait in the OP, Adept of the Codex, does NOT say on the battlefield. It says "alive".

Conversely, the Custodes Moment Shackle says "on the battlefield".

Since Adept doesn't say that, I'd say you can use it from a transport RAW. He's certainly alive in there.

Um... The OP isn't talking about Adept of the Codex. They're talking about Brilliant Stratagist.

They only mention adept half way down this thread as an example of one that probably does work, in contrast to Brilliant Stratagist.

Stux wrote:
Um... The OP isn't talking about Adept of the Codex. They're talking about Brilliant Stratagist.

They only mention adept half way down this thread as an example of one that probably does work, in contrast to Brilliant Stratagist.

Welp, that's on me. When the OP posted the full text of Adept I figured that's what he meant. CARRY ON.

Stux wrote:
RAW this is not legal.

The trait says "If your Warlord is on the Battlefield".

The Warlord is not on the battlefield.

A lot of people assume that a model in a transport is on the battlefield but they simply aren't. The embarking rule specifically says to remove the model from the battlefield, so that's totally clear. It would only count as on the battlefield if there was a rule that said that specifically, which there isn't in this case.

EDIT: There is a rule that specifically clarifies that Auras and abilities with a range cannot be used, it's in the core rules again. But that clarification does not mean that other abilities that require a model to be on the battlefield can be used.

His Warlord can not use the re-roll, but he can still gain CP's on a 5+ though.

Have you read Brilliant Strategist?

Dark Angels Warlord Traits wrote:Once per battle, if your Warlord is on the battlefield, you can re-roll a single... or saving throw. In addition, if you army is battle-forged, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+ you gain 1 Command Point.

The Warlord does not need to be on the battlefield to gain CP's, your army just needs to be battle-forged to gain a CP.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Warlord does not need to be on the battlefield to gain CP's, your army just needs to be battle-forged to gain a CP.

He does. "In addition" can mean all prior restrictions still apply.

Edit: I meant that it can be read both ways, I am tired and dumb.

No, it doesn't. "In addition" means that there is something else that the ability gives other than the once per battle re-roll. Notice it's a second sentence. If there were a coma then you would be correct but there isn't and you aren"t.

No, it means this ability is in addition to the prior ability. The requirement to be on the battlefield is entirely contained within the first sentence, and in no way aff3cts or is brought into the second.

I am saying it can be read both ways. Sorry for not being clearer!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying it can be read both ways. Sorry for not being clearer!

Except it can't be read both ways, all prior restrictions can not apply.

Because if "all prior restrictions still apply" then the "roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem" would only be limited to once per battle, when it clearly says "each time"


So Yes OP, a SM captain can be embarked in a rhino and utilize his "Brillant [Sic] strategist" warlord trait to try to gain a Command Point every time you use a Stratagem.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying it can be read both ways. Sorry for not being clearer!

Except it can't be read both ways, all prior restrictions can not apply.

Because if "all prior restrictions still apply" then the "roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem" would only be limited to once per battle, when it clearly says "each time"


So Yes OP, a SM captain can be embarked in a rhino and utilize his "Brillant [Sic] strategist" warlord trait to try to gain a Command Point every time you use a Stratagem.

I have to agree here. The "In addition" is in addition to the warlord trait not to the prior requirements. the warlord trait has this affect. In addition is also has this other affect.

From the core rules : "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked."

Doesnt matter if your army is battle forged, if your warlord is embarked on a transport he cant use his warlord trait.

From stepping into a new edition of 40k :

Q: Do models that are still embarked within a transport
count as being in range of an objective marker if their
transport is within range of it?
A: No.

Q: If a unit has an aura ability, and it is embarked
within a transport, does that aura ability still apply,
whether the transport has the Open-topped ability
or otherwise?
A: No.

Q: If I charge a transport that has the Open-topped
ability, can units that are embarked inside also fire
Overwatch at the charging unit?
A: No.

Q: Can a model with the ability to repair vehicles – such
as a Techmarine or an Ork Mek – use that ability to
repair a transport they are currently embarked within?
A: No.

Technically this doesnt say a warlord trait cant be used while embarked in a transport, but the intent is clear to me.

Agree they can't use the ability due to the Transports rules. Unless the Warlord trait specifically states it works when embarked the catch-all Transports rule prevents any unit-specific rules working unless otherwise specified.

The key is "unit specific". The ability to grab CPs is not unit specific it just affects a generic part of the game.

That's not wording of any rule though, that's my sum-up. As quoted in the post above mine "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked." Unless a rule says it works while embarked this seems a blanket "nuh-uh".