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 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Not much large LOS blocking terrain. That was huge. The meta has also swung heavily in favor of high ap weapons, which flyrants ignore with their 4+ invul save. Finally, the top tournament players often jump factions based on netlists, so they tend to focus on lists with a smaller variety of units. Last time it was dark reaper spam, this time will be flyrant spam, byt he time a FAQ rolls around they will have already swtiched to the next spam list.

Wouldn't lack of LOS block terrain favor gun line armies? No where to hide from the guns?

Just seems like we are jumping to conclusions here. There is probably a more realistic reason somewhat you like suggest. Everyone finds out what the "top players" are doing and just emulate it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Not much large LOS blocking terrain. That was huge. The meta has also swung heavily in favor of high ap weapons, which flyrants ignore with their 4+ invul save. Finally, the top tournament players often jump factions based on netlists, so they tend to focus on lists with a smaller variety of units. Last time it was dark reaper spam, this time will be flyrant spam, byt he time a FAQ rolls around they will have already swtiched to the next spam list.

Wouldn't lack of LOS block terrain favor gun line armies? No where to hide from the guns?

Just seems like we are jumping to conclusions here. There is probably a more realistic reason somewhat you like suggest. Everyone finds out what the "top players" are doing and just emulate it.

The thing is Flyrants deepstrike, so they hide from the first turn of shooting and then drop in with their own admirable levels of shooting to clear the major threats to themselves. Terrain definitely plays a part in how good Flyrants are.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Are they?
It takes 13 Guided Dark Reapers shooting at a Doomed Hive Tyrant with a 6++ to kill it. (on average)
There were people during LVO saying that the Eldar lists were countered by Flyrant's. This event would seem to back that up.

And I refer you also to the ICT rules which significantly change what units are good or not to explain difference in top armies at ICT tournaments and everywhere else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Not much large LOS blocking terrain. That was huge. The meta has also swung heavily in favor of high ap weapons, which flyrants ignore with their 4+ invul save. Finally, the top tournament players often jump factions based on netlists, so they tend to focus on lists with a smaller variety of units. Last time it was dark reaper spam, this time will be flyrant spam, byt he time a FAQ rolls around they will have already swtiched to the next spam list.

Wouldn't lack of LOS block terrain favor gun line armies? No where to hide from the guns?

Just seems like we are jumping to conclusions here. There is probably a more realistic reason somewhat you like suggest. Everyone finds out what the "top players" are doing and just emulate it.

It is primarily due to the missions/scoring at Adepticon versus the LVO. At Adepticon the secondary objective was this: "Every 100 points worth of enemy units destroyed by the end of the game (rounded to the nearest 100) is worth 1 Victory Point." (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2018/201840KChampDraftScenarios.pdf) 7 or so Flying Hive Tyrants is the bulk of those Tyranid lists and they are quite tough to take down. It is why hard to kill monsters and massive hordes dominated.
.
Moreover, the tertiary objectives (you had to choose 5 each game) are significantly different from the ITC Champions missions and less punishing for Hive Tyrants. For instance, in an ITC champions match against 7 Hive Tyrants you would almost always max out Headhunter, Kingslayer, and Big Game Hunter.

 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Are they?
It takes 13 Guided Dark Reapers shooting at a Doomed Hive Tyrant with a 6++ to kill it. (on average)
There were people during LVO saying that the Eldar lists were countered by Flyrant's. This event would seem to back that up.

And I refer you also to the ICT rules which significantly change what units are good or not to explain difference in top armies at ICT tournaments and everywhere else.

You do realize Adepticon is also a pretty hard deviation on 'normal' 40k right?

Can you give an example of a setting where flyrants don't do well?


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 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Are they?
It takes 13 Guided Dark Reapers shooting at a Doomed Hive Tyrant with a 6++ to kill it. (on average)
There were people during LVO saying that the Eldar lists were countered by Flyrant's. This event would seem to back that up.

And I refer you also to the ICT rules which significantly change what units are good or not to explain difference in top armies at ICT tournaments and everywhere else.

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Are they?
It takes 13 Guided Dark Reapers shooting at a Doomed Hive Tyrant with a 6++ to kill it. (on average)
There were people during LVO saying that the Eldar lists were countered by Flyrant's. This event would seem to back that up.

And I refer you also to the ICT rules which significantly change what units are good or not to explain difference in top armies at ICT tournaments and everywhere else.

You do realize Adepticon is also a pretty hard deviation on 'normal' 40k right?

Well yeah "normal 40k" lol.

ETC, ITC = nether of these are normal 40k.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can you give an example of a setting where flyrants don't do well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why they think flyrants did well at this event but not others?

IMO the lack of eldar lifted the Nids. Eldar are really great at blasting flyrants off the table.

Are they?
It takes 13 Guided Dark Reapers shooting at a Doomed Hive Tyrant with a 6++ to kill it. (on average)
There were people during LVO saying that the Eldar lists were countered by Flyrant's. This event would seem to back that up.

And I refer you also to the ICT rules which significantly change what units are good or not to explain difference in top armies at ICT tournaments and everywhere else.

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.

Bolded the important stuff. Dark Reapers do not scale linearly, your 30 dark reapers would take down a couple of them, and then 20 of them would easily die, because 2 units are left without protections (rules of one), without cover (nid stratagem) and without alaitoc trait (easily shot at closer than 12").

Even the previous scenario is surreal. Doom and guide against the faction with the highest psy protection in the game? Good luck! Oh, incidentally your targets will not be there for your first turn of shooting, good luck with that too!


Flyrant lists were born exactly to counter Eldar, it just turns out that they are good against everything else too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.

You won't have doom on more than 1 Tyrant and you won't have guide on any but 10 of the reapers. Reapers don't scale terribly well and the Reaper Launcher isn't strong against the Tyrant (most Reaper spam run 3ish 3 man units with reaper launchers in addition to one larger unit). Additionally getting the casts off against Tyranids isn't as easy as several over armies and Flyrants won't be available to be shot at in the first turn. And finally reapers won't be in cover and the large unit (i.e. the one that needs to die first) won't have an innate -1 because they'll be Ynnari rather than alatioc. I can tell you from personal experience that 2-3 Flyrants shooting in that unit absolutely evaporates it.

flyants are heavily countered by eldar. Let me break it down for you.

3 units of rangers prevent the turn 1 charge. Flyrants are terribly bad at killing things with 2+ saves in shooting - this is going to be practically every unit in the eldar army (it's mostly reapers and shinning spears).

Flyrants drop in - kill probably 0 reapers because they are in serpants (except for 1 huge ynnari reaper unit that will be parked greater than 18 inches off the front line (so they can use forwarnering) They will seriously hurt a tyrant when it comes in. Tyrants kill rangers. Then reapers and spears put a huge hurting on the tyrants. Remaining tyrants will not be able to hang. Like - it's not even close.

 Xenomancers wrote:
flyants are heavily countered by eldar. Let me break it down for you.

3 units of rangers prevent the turn 1 charge. Flyrants are terribly bad at killing things with 2+ saves in shooting - this is going to be practically every unit in the eldar army (it's mostly reapers and shinning spears).

Flyrants drop in - kill probably 0 reapers because they are in serpants (except for 1 huge ynnari reaper unit that will be parked greater than 18 inches off the front line (so they can use forwarnering) They will seriously hurt a tyrant when it comes in. Tyrants kill rangers. Then reapers and spears put a huge hurting on the tyrants. Remaining tyrants will not be able to hang. Like - it's not even close.

You do realize that the 7 Flyrant list played and beat a reaper and spears list in the top 8 right? To further clarify the Flyrants aren't doing their damage in close combat, they're doing it via shooting and once the big Ynnari unit is gone? Its game over.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.

You won't have doom on more than 1 Tyrant and you won't have guide on any but 10 of the reapers. Reapers don't scale terribly well and the Reaper Launcher isn't strong against the Tyrant (most Reaper spam run 3ish 3 man units with reaper launchers in addition to one larger unit). Additionally getting the casts off against Tyranids isn't as easy as several over armies and Flyrants won't be available to be shot at in the first turn. And finally reapers won't be in cover and the large unit (i.e. the one that needs to die first) won't have an innate -1 because they'll be Ynnari rather than alatioc. I can tell you from personal experience that 2-3 Flyrants shooting in that unit absolutely evaporates it.

How does one get within 12 inches of a unit that is screened by a unit with a net range of over 18 inches when you drop in from deep strike and a shooting range of 18? You can't. Even then reapers in cover even without the -1 are exceptionally durable agains ap-0 weapons. Still only average a single kill without the -1 to hit. Meanwhile every 8 wounds on a tyrant from a dark reaper kills it.

And in regards to "the best psychic denail" Shadow in the warp range is 12 - you will never get that bonus turn 1 (which is your only chance to kill the eldar before mega buffed shinning spears evaporate your army) You probably wont even get a chance to deny the spells on the spears because the farseer casting on them isn't within 24 inches of any of your tyrants.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.

You won't have doom on more than 1 Tyrant and you won't have guide on any but 10 of the reapers. Reapers don't scale terribly well and the Reaper Launcher isn't strong against the Tyrant (most Reaper spam run 3ish 3 man units with reaper launchers in addition to one larger unit). Additionally getting the casts off against Tyranids isn't as easy as several over armies and Flyrants won't be available to be shot at in the first turn. And finally reapers won't be in cover and the large unit (i.e. the one that needs to die first) won't have an innate -1 because they'll be Ynnari rather than alatioc. I can tell you from personal experience that 2-3 Flyrants shooting in that unit absolutely evaporates it.

How does one get within 12 inches of a unit that is screened by a unit with a net range of over 18 inches when you drop in from deep strike and a shooting range of 18? You can't. Even then reapers in cover even without the -1 are exceptionally durable agains ap-0 weapons. Still only average a single kill without the -1 to hit. Meanwhile every 8 wounds on a tyrant from a dark reaper kills it.

And in regards to "the best psychic denail" Shadow in the warp range is 12 - you will never get that bonus turn 1 (which is your only chance to kill the eldar before mega buffed shinning spears evaporate your army) You probably wont even get a chance to deny the spells on the spears because the farseer casting on them isn't within 24 inches of any of your tyrants.

Sure man, you know everything. The proof is in the pudding though - the Flyrant list beat the exact list you're talking about so apparently it isn't so obvious as you think.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
flyants are heavily countered by eldar. Let me break it down for you.

3 units of rangers prevent the turn 1 charge. Flyrants are terribly bad at killing things with 2+ saves in shooting - this is going to be practically every unit in the eldar army (it's mostly reapers and shinning spears).

Flyrants drop in - kill probably 0 reapers because they are in serpants (except for 1 huge ynnari reaper unit that will be parked greater than 18 inches off the front line (so they can use forwarnering) They will seriously hurt a tyrant when it comes in. Tyrants kill rangers. Then reapers and spears put a huge hurting on the tyrants. Remaining tyrants will not be able to hang. Like - it's not even close.

You do realize that the 7 Flyrant list played and beat a reaper and spears list in the top 8 right? To further clarify the Flyrants aren't doing their damage in close combat, they're doing it via shooting and once the big Ynnari unit is gone? Its game over.

That's not the same list that domianted LVO - I don't even believe it had rangers. It had 2 kabalite squads and a 17 man gardian which I'm sure was held in reserve to deep strike. It was also pretty light on the reapers.

I don't know anything about these matches - I only know what the top 8 lists were and I've looked at all of them.

Also - don't get me wrong - the tyrant is an amazing unit. It is not a counter to eldar in any way though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

So a list with 30 dark reapers 10 being ynarri could easily kill say...3 flyrants a turn - could even kill 1 the turn they drop in with a little luck? A tyrant shooting at -1 to hit reapers in cover kills....less than 1 reaper and being screened by rangers - this is the best case scenario against for the tyrants.

You won't have doom on more than 1 Tyrant and you won't have guide on any but 10 of the reapers. Reapers don't scale terribly well and the Reaper Launcher isn't strong against the Tyrant (most Reaper spam run 3ish 3 man units with reaper launchers in addition to one larger unit). Additionally getting the casts off against Tyranids isn't as easy as several over armies and Flyrants won't be available to be shot at in the first turn. And finally reapers won't be in cover and the large unit (i.e. the one that needs to die first) won't have an innate -1 because they'll be Ynnari rather than alatioc. I can tell you from personal experience that 2-3 Flyrants shooting in that unit absolutely evaporates it.

How does one get within 12 inches of a unit that is screened by a unit with a net range of over 18 inches when you drop in from deep strike and a shooting range of 18? You can't. Even then reapers in cover even without the -1 are exceptionally durable agains ap-0 weapons. Still only average a single kill without the -1 to hit. Meanwhile every 8 wounds on a tyrant from a dark reaper kills it.

And in regards to "the best psychic denail" Shadow in the warp range is 12 - you will never get that bonus turn 1 (which is your only chance to kill the eldar before mega buffed shinning spears evaporate your army) You probably wont even get a chance to deny the spells on the spears because the farseer casting on them isn't within 24 inches of any of your tyrants.

Sure man, you know everything. The proof is in the pudding though - the Flyrant list beat the exact list you're talking about so apparently it isn't so obvious as you think.

I'm just breaking it down. We know the unit capabilities. We know the rules of the game. You cant deep strike within 9 inches. So a screening line of rangers will prevent turn 1 charge on any important unit. We also know that reapers are -1 to hit at 12 inches and will therefore have that buff turn 1 against flyrants. We know that SITW is 12 " range and eldar spells have 24 inch range - therefore eldar will get their normal cast number. We also know that shinning spears don't even need to deep strike against this list - they start on the board and counter charge the tyrants automatically with 22" range move and charge ability.

So we essentially have a situation where eldar will get to shoot at the tyrants twice before they get to do any meaningful damage and they take shinning spears directly to the face at the same time. This is pretty much an auto-lose situation.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
flyants are heavily countered by eldar. Let me break it down for you.

3 units of rangers prevent the turn 1 charge. Flyrants are terribly bad at killing things with 2+ saves in shooting - this is going to be practically every unit in the eldar army (it's mostly reapers and shinning spears).

Flyrants drop in - kill probably 0 reapers because they are in serpants (except for 1 huge ynnari reaper unit that will be parked greater than 18 inches off the front line (so they can use forwarnering) They will seriously hurt a tyrant when it comes in. Tyrants kill rangers. Then reapers and spears put a huge hurting on the tyrants. Remaining tyrants will not be able to hang. Like - it's not even close.

You do realize that the 7 Flyrant list played and beat a reaper and spears list in the top 8 right? To further clarify the Flyrants aren't doing their damage in close combat, they're doing it via shooting and once the big Ynnari unit is gone? Its game over.

That's not the same list that domianted LVO - I don't even believe it had rangers. It had 2 kabalite squads and a 17 man gardian which I'm sure was held in reserve to deep strike. It was also pretty light on the reapers.

I don't know anything about these matches - I only know what the top 8 lists were and I've looked at all of them.

Also - don't get me wrong - the tyrant is an amazing unit. It is not a counter to eldar in any way though.

What? The list was:

2 Farseers
A Warlock
3 Units of Rangers
2 Wave Serpents

Yvraine
Bike Autarch
9 Reapers
8 Spears
17 Guardians
2 units of 5 Kabalites

Spiritseer
3 units of 3 Reapers

The LVO winner was:

Farseer
Spiritseer
Warlock
3 units of Rangers
2 Wave Serpents

Farseer
3 units of 3 Reapers

Yvraine
Autarch on Bike
Spiritseer
5 Kabalite Warriors
6 Kabalite Warriors
16 Guardians
9 Spears
8 Dark Reapers

They're nearly identical man.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
flyants are heavily countered by eldar. Let me break it down for you.

3 units of rangers prevent the turn 1 charge. Flyrants are terribly bad at killing things with 2+ saves in shooting - this is going to be practically every unit in the eldar army (it's mostly reapers and shinning spears).

Flyrants drop in - kill probably 0 reapers because they are in serpants (except for 1 huge ynnari reaper unit that will be parked greater than 18 inches off the front line (so they can use forwarnering) They will seriously hurt a tyrant when it comes in. Tyrants kill rangers. Then reapers and spears put a huge hurting on the tyrants. Remaining tyrants will not be able to hang. Like - it's not even close.

You do realize that the 7 Flyrant list played and beat a reaper and spears list in the top 8 right? To further clarify the Flyrants aren't doing their damage in close combat, they're doing it via shooting and once the big Ynnari unit is gone? Its game over.

That's not the same list that domianted LVO - I don't even believe it had rangers. It had 2 kabalite squads and a 17 man gardian which I'm sure was held in reserve to deep strike. It was also pretty light on the reapers.

I don't know anything about these matches - I only know what the top 8 lists were and I've looked at all of them.

Also - don't get me wrong - the tyrant is an amazing unit. It is not a counter to eldar in any way though.

What? The list was:

2 Farseers
A Warlock
3 Units of Rangers
2 Wave Serpents

Yvraine
Bike Autarch
9 Reapers
8 Spears
17 Guardians
2 units of 5 Kabalites

Spiritseer
3 units of 3 Reapers

The LVO winner was:

Farseer
Spiritseer
Warlock
3 units of Rangers
2 Wave Serpents

Farseer
3 units of 3 Reapers

Yvraine
Autarch on Bike
Spiritseer
5 Kabalite Warriors
6 Kabalite Warriors
16 Guardians
9 Spears
8 Dark Reapers

They're nearly identical man.

Didn't see the ranger in the list when I looked at it. Even so - a single game can be chalked up to bad dice rolls. It's pretty easy to show that the flyrants are at a serious disadvantage against a competive eldar list.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Didn't see the ranger in the list when I looked at it. Even so - a single game can be chalked up to bad dice rolls. It's pretty easy to show that the flyrants are at a serious disadvantage against a competive eldar list.

Sure and its also easy to show that when you start factoring in the Mawlocs clearing zones for the Tyrants that a well played Flyrant list will demolish the 'LVO Eldar' archtype. This is all 40k in a vacuum - currently we know that 7 Flyrants did in fact beat the Eldar list.

The mawlocks are a pretty expensive solution to kill 5 rangers but I guess they can get that done pretty effectively. Wouldn't work on wave serapnts - I bet the eldar player didn't realize that.

That's all that matters - crack the shell of the nut.

Shadow in the warp is 18".

Also, reapers have one turn of shooting, after that they are stuck in melee turn after turn, with only one being able to shoot due to the stratagem (until CP last).

Shining spears evaporate against tyrants.

We are also forgetting 7 psykers worth of mortal wounds.

No, this matchup is really bad for Eldar.

There are a few ways Tyranids can mitigate the advantages of Alaitoc reapers.

1. Heightened Senses: One of the 24shot Tyrants will hit at 3+ always (Warlord Trait)
1.1 The above Tyrant will shoot twice (2CP)
2. Digestive Denial: One piece of terrain will not provide cover for this game (2CP). As this is done pre game, this stratagem can be used multiple times, potentially negating all cover for the reapers. If the tournament offers few terrain (which it did), multiple reaper units may sit in the same piece.
3. As mentioned before, the list may try to use Mawlocs (in the movement phase), to make a dent into the Ranger cover, to get into 12". It may also try and use non-Flyrant units for this. With the kind of scoring here, there is no real rush to get them in turn 1.

HMint wrote:
There are a few ways Tyranids can mitigate the advantages of Alaitoc reapers.

1. Heightened Senses: One of the 24shot Tyrants will hit at 3+ always (Warlord Trait)
1.1 The above Tyrant will shoot twice (2CP)
2. Digestive Denial: One piece of terrain will not provide cover for this game (2CP). As this is done pre game, this stratagem can be used multiple times, potentially negating all cover for the reapers. If the tournament offers few terrain (which it did), multiple reaper units may sit in the same piece.
3. As mentioned before, the list may try to use Mawlocs (in the movement phase), to make a dent into the Ranger cover, to get into 12". It may also try and use non-Flyrant units for this. With the kind of scoring here, there is no real rush to get them in turn 1.

This one is for infantry only, but the other ones work.

Not that it's really hard, 1 tyrant shooting at reapers without defenses scores 4-5 kills.

Spoletta wrote:

HMint wrote:
There are a few ways Tyranids can mitigate the advantages of Alaitoc reapers.

1. Heightened Senses: One of the 24shot Tyrants will hit at 3+ always (Warlord Trait)
1.1 The above Tyrant will shoot twice (2CP)
2. Digestive Denial: One piece of terrain will not provide cover for this game (2CP). As this is done pre game, this stratagem can be used multiple times, potentially negating all cover for the reapers. If the tournament offers few terrain (which it did), multiple reaper units may sit in the same piece.
3. As mentioned before, the list may try to use Mawlocs (in the movement phase), to make a dent into the Ranger cover, to get into 12". It may also try and use non-Flyrant units for this. With the kind of scoring here, there is no real rush to get them in turn 1.

This one is for infantry only, but the other ones work.

Not that it's really hard, 1 tyrant shooting at reapers without defenses scores 4-5 kills.

Right, I edited 1.1 in without thinking. :/
Maybe a list that REALLY wants to counter the reapers could bring the deathgaunt bomb with a Mawloc and use it on those. But probably not very competetive against other lists.

Spoletta wrote:

HMint wrote:
There are a few ways Tyranids can mitigate the advantages of Alaitoc reapers.

1. Heightened Senses: One of the 24shot Tyrants will hit at 3+ always (Warlord Trait)
1.1 The above Tyrant will shoot twice (2CP)
2. Digestive Denial: One piece of terrain will not provide cover for this game (2CP). As this is done pre game, this stratagem can be used multiple times, potentially negating all cover for the reapers. If the tournament offers few terrain (which it did), multiple reaper units may sit in the same piece.
3. As mentioned before, the list may try to use Mawlocs (in the movement phase), to make a dent into the Ranger cover, to get into 12". It may also try and use non-Flyrant units for this. With the kind of scoring here, there is no real rush to get them in turn 1.

This one is for infantry only, but the other ones work.

Not that it's really hard, 1 tyrant shooting at reapers without defenses scores 4-5 kills.

Pretty tall order for a list that has very few command points.

Best way to address the Flyrants is to count the wings as taking up a pair of arm slot it shouldn't be able to take 4 weapon. Every other winged Tyranid has the wings as a pair of limbs from their 6. Count the wings as including a pair of Scything Talons. That should help address the issue of them turning into attack helicopters.

Also have the Flyrant a Flyer for the purpose of FOC, done.

 stonehorse wrote:
Best way to address the Flyrants is to count the wings as taking up a pair of arm slot it shouldn't be able to take 4 weapon. Every other winged Tyranid has the wings as a pair of limbs from their 6. Count the wings as including a pair of Scything Talons. That should help address the issue of them turning into attack helicopters.

Also have the Flyrant a Flyer for the purpose of FOC, done.

If they were Scytal equivalents then they should cost much more.
I think that they should be the same scything wings of the harpy. User -2 d3.

Counting the wings as weapons would effectively destroy that unit, and it would never see the table again. Are you serious


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No one was complaining when Tyranids finished 54 at LVO, with Orks finishing 55.

It's not like Flyrant spam was new at LVO, numerous flyrant spam lists were there.

Spoletta wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Best way to address the Flyrants is to count the wings as taking up a pair of arm slot it shouldn't be able to take 4 weapon. Every other winged Tyranid has the wings as a pair of limbs from their 6. Count the wings as including a pair of Scything Talons. That should help address the issue of them turning into attack helicopters.

Also have the Flyrant a Flyer for the purpose of FOC, done.

If they were Scytal equivalents then they should cost much more.
I think that they should be the same scything wings of the harpy. User -2 d3.

Shows how many times my Harpies have seen action, I always forget about those. Yeah, those would work.

 Marmatag wrote:
Counting the wings as weapons would effectively destroy that unit, and it would never see the table again. Are you serious


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No one was complaining when Tyranids finished 54 at LVO, with Orks finishing 55.

It's not like Flyrant spam was new at LVO, numerous flyrant spam lists were there.

I doubt it would be the end of the Flyrant, it would still offer a great deal, psychic powers, mobility, durability, and all the while being good at dealing damage either through ranged attacks or assault. I play Tyranids and I would still take mine, I haven't spammed the model as I find spamming units to be as bland as dishwater

Tyranids were in a very bad place in 7th aside from the one list that worked. That was 4 units spammed, one of which was the attack helicopter Flyrant. Seeing it spammed again in 8th is annoying, the Tyranid codex is full of good choices now, yet still they are being overshadowed by the Flyrant. This alone shows that something needs to change. The game, even at tournament level should promote variety.

So because spamming flyrants has been getting its ass kicked at every major event, but then suddenly has ONE good showing, at a format that very clearly favors them (good luck earning kill points on Flyrants), they deserve to have half of their weapons removed? No...

I also play Tyranids, and this change proposed is the dumbest thing ever.

It was stated in another thread that they have been doing very well at non ITC tournaments since january. Its been stated that it is ITC's secondary opjectives that make flyrent spam non viable in ITC rules tournaments, not flyrents being week.

 Marmatag wrote:
So because spamming flyrants has been getting its ass kicked at every major event, but then suddenly has ONE good showing, at a format that very clearly favors them (good luck earning kill points on Flyrants), they deserve to have half of their weapons removed? No...

I also play Tyranids, and this change proposed is the dumbest thing ever.

My proposal doesn't remove half the weapons, it simply aims to bring the rules into line with the model and the rest of the winged Tyranid design.

It also makes the Flyrant a complete no brainer, nothing else in the Tyranid codex comes close to the Flyrant as it is. It is a case of internal balance.