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This is just a quick question that came up in a game. Not exactly game breaking but good for clarification.

Baal predator with Hunter Killer Missile shot everything at a Dreadnought including the one use missile.

Thing is the Dreadnought had 3 wounds left, and we resolved the twin assault cannon shots first which was enough to kill the Dread.

The missile was declared but never rolled for.

Does he keep the missile? We decided yes as he never roll'd and it's not exactly game breaking but it's just a handy thing to know.

i'd go with yes too. You have not actually fired it.

I think the answer is no as you are told to resolve all of the shots that you declare.

BRB wrote:
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

As per rules you still need to roll to hit, wound, etc regardless if the enemy unit is destroyed - but we don't as it is wasted time. In short, the one use only weapon has been used.

This is a good question.

Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

Yes, there is. You already declared the shooting against the target when it was alive. That makes it a legal usage. Just because it does nothing doesn't mean it wasn't fired.

By your logic we have to check for LOS after every step, which is clearly nonsense when you read the actual rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

Yes, there is. You already declared the shooting against the target when it was alive. That makes it a legal usage. Just because it does nothing doesn't mean it wasn't fired.

By your logic we have to check for LOS after every step, which is clearly nonsense when you read the actual rules.

By your logic a declared overcharging plasma that doesn’t actually get to fire could still blow up. And that doesn’t happen.

Can we stop the “by your logic” stuff already?

Attacks are resolved one at a time, we’re told that. So if you don’t roll you haven’t used the weapon, is my take. So you’d keep the Missile if earlier attacks finished off your target.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

Yes, there is. You already declared the shooting against the target when it was alive. That makes it a legal usage. Just because it does nothing doesn't mean it wasn't fired.

By your logic we have to check for LOS after every step, which is clearly nonsense when you read the actual rules.

By your logic a declared overcharging plasma that doesn’t actually get to fire could still blow up. And that doesn’t happen.

Can we stop the “by your logic” stuff already?

Attacks are resolved one at a time, we’re told that. So if you don’t roll you haven’t used the weapon, is my take. So you’d keep the Missile if earlier attacks finished off your target.

no we are not actually. It is clearly stated that you must resolve all the attacks against the target before you can move to another one.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

Yes, there is. You already declared the shooting against the target when it was alive. That makes it a legal usage. Just because it does nothing doesn't mean it wasn't fired.

By your logic we have to check for LOS after every step, which is clearly nonsense when you read the actual rules.

By your logic a declared overcharging plasma that doesn’t actually get to fire could still blow up. And that doesn’t happen.

Can we stop the “by your logic” stuff already?

Attacks are resolved one at a time, we’re told that. So if you don’t roll you haven’t used the weapon, is my take. So you’d keep the Missile if earlier attacks finished off your target.

no we are not actually. It is clearly stated that you must resolve all the attacks against the target before you can move to another one.

So I imagined this part?

4. Resolve Attacks
Attacks can be made one at a time,
or, in some cases, you can roll
for multiple attacks together. The
following sequence is used to make
attacks one at a time:

Yes, you resolve all attacks before moving on to the next unit, but if one attack kills the unit then you don't make any more attacks against it, as there's nothing more to resolve. Plasmas don't blow up, missiles aren't expended, etc. That's how I see it. If you think differently show me some reasoning, but don't tell me part of the 8 pages of Core Rules doesn't exist!

The rules say to declare all of your shooting attacks before rolling any dice. If you declare shots against one target and you get extra wounds you don't get to reasign those wounds. Likewise if you declare 2 different weapon systems are firing at the same unit and the first weapon destroys the target you don't get to reallocate where the 2nd weapon fires.

In most cases it doesn't matter if the target is destroyed by one system or another. However, where there are ramifications for firing a weapon those weapons should still roll to see if those ramifications take effect. So, you should roll to see if those overcharged plasma weapons over heat and you should expend you limited shot weapon.

It's not like the units are volley firing and 1 weapon type is waiting for the other to finish shooting before it shoots. All of the weapons are fired simultaneously you're just resolving the shots sequentially.

The way I see it (and the way I always played it) is that a unit fires all its shots at the same time. I certainly roll dices differently but once I decided, I shoot all the weapons at the same instant. This case, by the time the seeker missile is fired, i "don't know" if the model has died or not.

You must target all your weapons before a unit starts shooting. So if you target with a 1 time only weapon and you actually didnt need it it still has fired as it targeted a unit
And to answer the "gets hot plasma" issue you are not forced to keep shooting afther a unit died so if you "shoot" the plasmas last and didnt need them you would not need to shoot them and they would not overheat

The rules actually say to resolve your attacks. If you declared an attack with a weapon you must resolve it. In most cases it doesn't matter since the target is gone and nothing else can happen. Thus, we just skip over the rest of the attacks and continue with the game. With overcharged plasma you still have to resolve the attack since you could overheat. The only option you have is whether you resolve each shot one at a time or all of them at once.

It's used up.

The attack hasn't been RESOLVED because it would otherwise be redundant.

However, the attack has already been DECLARED and made.

All attacks are made simultaneously. It's the sequencing that tells you to RESOLVE the attack in any order you choose to do so. The slugs from the AC has already left their shells, and the missle has launched. The impact of the attack gets resolved in sequence. A missile fired doesn't return to it's casing just because the target has been eliminated.

If the ruling on overcharging plasmas is that you don't have to roll with them because the target is dead - the same ruling will determine you don't have to fire the HKM ether.

You don't fire the HKM but you targeted with it and thats why it is expended not becouse it is fired but becouse you targeted with it...

 Xenomancers wrote:
If the ruling on overcharging plasmas is that you don't have to roll with them because the target is dead - the same ruling will determine you don't have to fire the HKM ether.

But the difference is that Plasma doesn't "disappear" once used. Not having to roll them is what makes them not "get hot", but they were still part of the shooting attack
HKMs are different because you are only allowed to use them once per battle.

Declaring them as part of your shooting attack IS USING THEM. Even if you didn't specifically roll the HKM, you did in fact resolve the "shooting attack".

The rules refer to a shooting attacks as a whole, not as separate attacks divided by weapon type. So if the HKM was declare as part of THAT attack, the only way to "save" the missile at that point is to not actually resolve the attack at all. The entire attack, meaning no shooting from that unit gets resolved at all.
To my knowledge, once you declare the attack, you cannot choose not to resolve it.

So in the future, why not save the HKM for a target that isn't probably going to die from other shooting, or split it off to another target?
Or just fire the HMK first and avoid the issue entirely?

-

odin wrote:
You don't fire the HKM but you targeted with it and thats why it is expended not becouse it is fired but becouse you targeted with it...

So here is the question which you can't answer.

HKM is one use only.

How do you determine that it was used - if you do not fire the weapon? I would make the case that if plasma isn't required to roll to hit in a similar situation when the target is dead - that the plasma gun was not used ether. Because when you use plasma guns - they can kill you on overcharge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If the ruling on overcharging plasmas is that you don't have to roll with them because the target is dead - the same ruling will determine you don't have to fire the HKM ether.

But the difference is that Plasma doesn't "disappear" once used. Not having to roll them is what makes them not "get hot"
HKMs are different because you are only allowed to use them once per battle.

Declaring them as part of your shooting attack IS USING THEM. Even if you didn't specifically roll the HKM, you did in fact resolve the "shooting attack".

The rules refer to a shooting attacks as a whole, not as separate attacks divided by weapon type. So if the HKM was declare as part of THAT attack, the only way to "save" the missile at that point is to not actually resolve the attack at all. The entire attack, meaning no shooting from that unit gets resolved at all.
To my knowledge, once you declare the attack, you cannot choose not to resolve it.

So in the future, why not save the HKM for a target that isn't probably going to die from other shooting, or split it off to another target?
Or just fire the HMK first and avoid the issue entirely?

-

Well I would agree with you. My first instinct was "if you target it with a HKM - you can't use it again". After looking at the way they handled overcharging plasma in the same situation - it leads me to believe that the weapon is not being used unless you roll for it. Why exactly would they treat overcharging plasma this way?

 Xenomancers wrote:

odin wrote:
You don't fire the HKM but you targeted with it and thats why it is expended not becouse it is fired but becouse you targeted with it...

So here is the question which you can't answer.

HKM is one use only.

How do you determine that it was used - if you do not fire the weapon? I would make the case that if plasma isn't required to roll to hit in a similar situation when the target is dead - that the plasma gun was not used ether. Because when you use plasma guns - they can kill you on overcharge.

I answered this above. You resolve shooting attacks, not individual weapons. While we do roll separately for practical reasons, the attack is still considered resolved as a whole.
Declaring that you are using the HKM as PART OF THE ATTACK, is what considers it to be used. Rolling dice for it separately does not matter as you have, in fact, resolved the shooting attack in which the HKM was part of.

Edit: I am not treating Plasmas differently. I am saying that they still count as being USED, but as their rule requires actually rolling (which isn't needed in this case), you avoid "gets Hot"
HKM still count as being "used" as part of the shooting attack that was resolved, regardless of being rolled for.
There is a reason HMK are super cheap. They take skill to use effectively.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

odin wrote:
You don't fire the HKM but you targeted with it and thats why it is expended not becouse it is fired but becouse you targeted with it...

So here is the question which you can't answer.

HKM is one use only.

How do you determine that it was used - if you do not fire the weapon? I would make the case that if plasma isn't required to roll to hit in a similar situation when the target is dead - that the plasma gun was not used ether. Because when you use plasma guns - they can kill you on overcharge.

I answered this above. You resolve shooting attacks, not individual weapons. While we do roll separately for practical reasons, the attack is still considered resolved as a whole.
Declaring that you are using the HKM as PART OR THE ATTACK, is what considers it to be used. Rolling dice for it separately does not matter as you have, in fact, resolved the shooting attack in which the HKM was part of.

Edit: I am not treating Plasmas differently. I am saying that they still count as being USED, but as their rule requires actually rolliong (which isn't needed in this case), you avoid "gets Hot"

-

I think we might need a FAQ to define what a use of a weapon is. This could actually become a larger issue because tau seeker missles are going to be much more common than HKM.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

odin wrote:
You don't fire the HKM but you targeted with it and thats why it is expended not becouse it is fired but becouse you targeted with it...

So here is the question which you can't answer.

HKM is one use only.

How do you determine that it was used - if you do not fire the weapon? I would make the case that if plasma isn't required to roll to hit in a similar situation when the target is dead - that the plasma gun was not used ether. Because when you use plasma guns - they can kill you on overcharge.

I answered this above. You resolve shooting attacks, not individual weapons. While we do roll separately for practical reasons, the attack is still considered resolved as a whole.
Declaring that you are using the HKM as PART OR THE ATTACK, is what considers it to be used. Rolling dice for it separately does not matter as you have, in fact, resolved the shooting attack in which the HKM was part of.

Edit: I am not treating Plasmas differently. I am saying that they still count as being USED, but as their rule requires actually rolliong (which isn't needed in this case), you avoid "gets Hot"

-

Hmm, but the rules don't apply of seem to indicate we can stop rolling cause the target is defeated, right? The Rulebook quote on this thread says "resolve all three shots", so technically you need to roll for the plasma guns firing at the target even after the target is defeated.

Actually, I can see why don't roll for the plasma. You declare which mode of the weapon you are using when you go to make the attack rolls. In this instance you wouldn't need to overcharge and would select normal mode. Since nothing can happen in normal mode there is no reason to roll the dice.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually, I can see why don't roll for the plasma. You declare which mode of the weapon you are using when you go to make the attack rolls. In this instance you wouldn't need to overcharge and would select normal mode. Since nothing can happen in normal mode there is no reason to roll the dice.

Good point! And the Plasma are still considered "used" for that turn.

-

The thing is, the HKM WAS fired. You just decided not to roll, because it would be an overkill and thus pointless game-wise.

Battle Primer, page 5

Shooting Sequence:
1.Choose unit to shoot with
2.Choose targets
3.Choose ranged weapon
4.Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

Here, we see that the sequence of making a shooting attack goes from choosing a ranged weapon to attack with, and then resolving whether that attack hit or not, etc.
The logic of "but the target was dead already, so then the attack wasn't resolved; therefore, the HKM was not fired, and can be used at another time" goes against the very rule since it is claiming "because the target was dead, I was unable to go to step [4. Resolve Attacks], therefore the attack was never made at step [3. Choose Ranged Weapon]"

The attack (with the HKM) was already made - the result of the attack wasn't resolved because it would otherwise be redundant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually, I can see why don't roll for the plasma. You declare which mode of the weapon you are using when you go to make the attack rolls. In this instance you wouldn't need to overcharge and would select normal mode. Since nothing can happen in normal mode there is no reason to roll the dice.

There are some ambiguities as some overchargeable plasma weapons hav ethe overcharge as the weapon's ability, while some have two different profiles (Plasmagun (Standard); Plasmagun (Overcharged)). In the latter case, you would need to declare which "weapon" you're shooting with at step 3. You can't elect to shoot [Plasmagun (Overcharged)] at step 3, then during step 4, choose to fire the said plasmagun as [Plasmagun (Standard)].

And technically, the enemy CAN resolve the step as the model's stats still exist . Allocating wounds (to nothing), Making saving throws (that don't matter) and Inflicting damage (to nothing).
The model being removed doesn't mean we all magically forgot what was there and what its stats were. We just don't finish resolving the step because it is pointless.

-

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually, I can see why don't roll for the plasma. You declare which mode of the weapon you are using when you go to make the attack rolls. In this instance you wouldn't need to overcharge and would select normal mode. Since nothing can happen in normal mode there is no reason to roll the dice.

That's true, but see skchan's post. Sometimes that won't save us and plasma has to get rolled.

If a weapon has a chance of doing something meaningful when it is used then you must resolve the effect. If the effect would be meaningless then you shouldn't bother. I don't know about every weapon (I play mono GK) but if you don't get a choice in how to use a weapon that can back fire then you have to risk it no matter what.

Consider the scenario where you declare the shots into a unit of 5 Marines leveraging cover.

The assault cannon kills 4, leaving 1 hidden behind a wall. You can still fire the HKM even though he is out of line of sight because the attack has already happened at the same time as the assault cannon. You just need to roll to resolve the effects.

Another example would be if you split fire into a Dark Shroud and a unit next to it. You kill the dark shroud with guns A&B, and when gun C goes to shoot at the unit next to the Dark Shroud, you still receive a -1 penalty to hit even though the dark shroud has been slain, because the attacks are resolved simultaneously in game time.