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 Marmatag wrote:
Consider the scenario where you declare the shots into a unit of 5 Marines leveraging cover.

The assault cannon kills 4, leaving 1 hidden behind a wall. You can still fire the HKM even though he is out of line of sight because the attack has already happened at the same time as the assault cannon. You just need to roll to resolve the effects.

Another example would be if you split fire into a Dark Shroud and a unit next to it. You kill the dark shroud with guns A&B, and when gun C goes to shoot at the unit next to the Dark Shroud, you still receive a -1 penalty to hit even though the dark shroud has been slain, because the attacks are resolved simultaneously in game time.

No, you don't. You stop getting the Darkshroud penalty the second it is destroyed.

Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

 p5freak wrote:
Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

I second this. There is no rules proof that shots are simultaneous; if anything, there's the opposite, as we're told to resolve them one by one.

That's fair. Then when I shoot my weapons at a unit that has already been destroyed I want to be able to declare a new target.
The rules don't say not to make an attack that has no value. RAW part 4 of the shooting rules say to resolve (all) your attacks. It then goes on to give you an option as to how you want to resolve them but it doesn't say that you have an option to decline firing once the target has been declared.

I will admit that I am inferring the "all" but I think that it is a reasonable inference otherwise the game bogs down into a horrible mess of which attacks get resolved in the manner proscribed.

Huh, this conversation is surprisingly long for something that seems to me to be cut and dry in the rules? We declare all targets of all weapons when we are choosing a unit to fire with. If I declare my Predator is shooting all its Lascannons at your Battlewagon, and then destroy it after resolving the first shot, I certainly don't get to re-declare the remaining shots at another target. No different here, just because something is "one use only", doesn't let you change the rules.

It is abundantly clear in the rules that once shots are allocated - they can't be reallocated. What is not clear is if target allocation counts as weapon use (for a one time use weapon if you don't actually shoot it)

SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose targets
3. Choose ranged weapon
4. Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is abundantly clear in the rules that once shots are allocated - they can't be reallocated. What is not clear is if target allocation counts as weapon use (for a one time use weapon if you don't actually shoot it)

Exactly this. People keep going off on tangents.

I make it that if you overkill with some weapons then don't make a to hit roll (flamers etc. excepted before someone gets smart) with others you don't actually fire the un-rolled for things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose targets
3. Choose ranged weapon
4. Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

Agreed.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

I second this. There is no rules proof that shots are simultaneous; if anything, there's the opposite, as we're told to resolve them one by one.

Step [4. Resolving Attacks] is a step in which you determine whether an attack, or colloquially "shots fired", hits the target/wounds the target/how wounds are allocated/whether wounds are saved/how much damage is taken.
Whether an attack was made, or colloquially, shots were fired, is declared at step [3. Choose Ranged Weapon].

Step 4 is where you determine the EFFECT of the attack, not whether the attack has been made or not.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

I second this. There is no rules proof that shots are simultaneous; if anything, there's the opposite, as we're told to resolve them one by one.

I, for one, am not saying that all shots are made at the same time. That would obviously be ridiculous.
I am saying that when a unit is chosen to shoot, you must declare its ENTIRE shooting attack, including what weapons will be fired at which targets.
A unit makes A shooting attack. That attack is, of course, resolved separately per weapon type and target as per the sequence, but it is still the unit's attack.
Eliminating a target before resolving a specific weapon has been rolled for does not change that fact that the weapon in question was declared as PART OF THE ATTACK.

If you declared to use the HKM with the shooting attack, the only way to avoid using it, is to not resolve the attack. Any part of the attack, not just the HKM.
As mentioned, this isn't a possibility within the rules. So be very carefully when declaring to use the HKM.

A counter question I would ask: Where in the rules does it say that if a model is destroyed, it interrupts the sequence of events that is currently being resolved?
Just because the target is dead, does not mean we all magically forget what the target was. We can indeed still roll the dice.
We just choose not to because the rolls would make zero affect on the game. But the sequence can (and if we are being truly RAW, MUST) be resolved to completion.

EDIT: In fact, we do have a similar situation when it comes to multi-model units. It says that once there are no more models to allocate to, all remaining wounds are lost. That does not retroactively mean we time-travel to roll less dice. The dice are still rolled, but excess damage is lost.
So if you declared to use the HKM, you can still roll for it even if the target is gone. We know what the targets was and what dice rolls will be needed.

Excess damage will simply be lost. Nowhere (that I can see) in the rules does it allow you to "undeclare" the use of a ranged weapon because to "choose" not to roll for it.

I could certainly see this being FAQ'd or Errata's, however right now RAW, once declared, it is used.

-

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is used up. You must resolve all shots you declare shooting for, even if the model has already been slain.

But it's impossible to do so. There is no legal target to fire the missile at.

Yes, there is. You already declared the shooting against the target when it was alive. That makes it a legal usage. Just because it does nothing doesn't mean it wasn't fired.

By your logic we have to check for LOS after every step, which is clearly nonsense when you read the actual rules.

By your logic a declared overcharging plasma that doesn’t actually get to fire could still blow up. And that doesn’t happen.

Can we stop the “by your logic” stuff already?

Attacks are resolved one at a time, we’re told that. So if you don’t roll you haven’t used the weapon, is my take. So you’d keep the Missile if earlier attacks finished off your target.

Hmm, I don't have my rulebook in front of me as I am at work. Is the overcharging plasma bit a fact? In this case I can understand that perhaps this will require a ruling from GW FAQs then

 Galef wrote:

I, for one, am not saying that all shots are made at the same time. That would obviously be ridiculous.
I am saying that when a unit is chosen to shoot, you must declare its ENTIRE shooting attack, including what weapons will be fired at which targets.
A unit makes A shooting attack. That attack is, of course, resolved separately per weapon type and target as per the sequence, but it is still the unit's attack.
Eliminating a target before resolving a specific weapon has been rolled for does not change that fact that the weapon in question was declared as PART OF THE ATTACK.

If you declared to use the HKM with the shooting attack, the only way to avoid using it, is to not resolve the attack. Any part of the attack, not just the HKM.
As mentioned, this isn't a possibility within the rules. So be very carefully when declaring to use the HKM.

A counter question I would ask: Where in the rules does it say that if a model is destroyed, it interrupts the sequence of events that is currently being resolved?
Just because the target is dead, does not mean we all magically forget what the target was. We can indeed still roll the dice.
We just choose not to because the rolls would make zero affect on the game. But the sequence can (and if we are being truly RAW, MUST) be resolved to completion.

EDIT: In fact, we do have a similar situation when it comes to multi-model units. It says that once there are no more models to allocate to, all remaining wounds are lost. That does not retroactively mean we time-travel to roll less dice. The dice are still rolled, but excess damage is lost.
So if you declared to use the HKM, you can still roll for it even if the target is gone. We know what the targets was and what dice rolls will be needed.

Excess damage will simply be lost. Nowhere (that I can see) in the rules does it allow you to "undeclared" the use of a ranged weapon because to choose not to roll for it.

-

Step 5 inflict damage says : "If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect."

If my lascannons do 10 damage, and the target only had 8 wounds the excess damage is lost. But, because i fired the lascannons first i cant hit with the HKM, the target is already destroyed. Its not possible to go through the entire sequence. Normally it wouldnt matter because weapons have infinite ammo. But the HKM can only be fired once. The rules dont cover that situation, we dont know how to handle it.

 p5freak wrote:
SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose targets
3. Choose ranged weapon
4. Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

Except that in step 3 you already declare what's been shooting where, so with step 3 you are shooting the HKM. Just because the target dieappears before you resolve doesn't mean you haven't shot it after you declared you are shooting it. You don't have any permission to take back your statement that you are firing the HKM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

I second this. There is no rules proof that shots are simultaneous; if anything, there's the opposite, as we're told to resolve them one by one.

Step [4. Resolving Attacks] is a step in which you determine whether an attack, or colloquially "shots fired", hits the target/wounds the target/how wounds are allocated/whether wounds are saved/how much damage is taken.
Whether an attack was made, or colloquially, shots were fired, is declared at step [3. Choose Ranged Weapon].

Step 4 is where you determine the EFFECT of the attack, not whether the attack has been made or not.

Exactly.

 p5freak wrote:
... But, because i fired the lascannons first i cant hit with the HKM, the target is already destroyed.

The target being destroyed doesn't prevent you from rolling through the sequence. We all still know what the "to hit" rolls, "to wound" rolls, etc will be because we declared which weapon was going to fire at which target at step 3. The stats of the weapon and target unit do not change.
You absolutely CAN complete the sequence. It would be silly to do so, but it is 100% possible within the rules, which is all that matters.

-

These feels like exactly the same logic as the 6+ to hit thread but in reverse...

doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose targets
3. Choose ranged weapon
4. Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

Except that in step 3 you already declare what's been shooting where, so with step 3 you are shooting the HKM. Just because the target dieappears before you resolve doesn't mean you haven't shot it after you declared you are shooting it. You don't have any permission to take back your statement that you are firing the HKM.

In step 3 i choose the weapons. Shooting is in step 4, make hit roll. I cant hit something that isnt there anymore. It was destroyed by the lascannons who shot first.

Galef wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
... But, because i fired the lascannons first i cant hit with the HKM, the target is already destroyed.

The target being destroyed doesn't prevent you from rolling through the sequence. We all still know what the "to hit" rolls, "to wound" rolls, etc will be because we declared which weapon was going to fire at which target at step 3. The stats of the weapon and target unit do not change.
You absolutely CAN complete the sequence. It would be silly to do so, but it is 100% possible within the rules, which is all that matters.

I cant, there is no target anymore, hitting is impossible. The not anymore existing target does not have a toughness value, i cant wound it. The enemy cannot allocate the non existing wounds to it. It cant make any saves, its not there anymore. Its impossible to complete the sequence.

 p5freak wrote:

doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose targets
3. Choose ranged weapon
4. Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates
wound
• Enemy makes
saving throw
• Inflict damage

Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

Except that in step 3 you already declare what's been shooting where, so with step 3 you are shooting the HKM. Just because the target dieappears before you resolve doesn't mean you haven't shot it after you declared you are shooting it. You don't have any permission to take back your statement that you are firing the HKM.

In step 3 i choose the weapons. Shooting is in step 4, make hit roll. I cant hit something that isnt there anymore. It was destroyed by the lascannons who shot first.

As part of step 3 "If a model has several weaspons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy ujnnit, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same or different targets if you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolles, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."


You've shot, the shots must be resolved. Just because the target isn't there doesn't mean you haven't shot, according to this in step 3 you have shot the weapons, you are only resolving them when you hit step 4. At the point when you declare what weapons are shooting there, the weapons are considered to be shooting that round. It doesn't matter whether when it comes time to resolve the effects of the shooting that the first weapon takes it out and the others contribute nothing extra, those other weapons are shooting because you have committed in step 3 that you are shooting the weapon. You are confusing whether the weapon fires with resolving the effects of firing the weapon
You do not have permission to say that a weapon retroactively did not fire in step 4 after declaring in step 3 that it is shooting.

 p5freak wrote:
I cant, there is no target anymore, hitting is impossible. The not anymore existing target does not have a toughness value, i cant wound it. The enemy cannot allocate the non existing wounds to it. It cant make any saves, its not there anymore. Its impossible to complete the sequence.

Just because it's impossible to hit doesn't mean that you don't roll if required to do so. An Ork with a heavy weapon moves and declares that he will target an Eldar flyer with the craft world benefit that makes it -1 to hit. If the Ork has a BS 5+ he would need a 7+ to hit. He can't roll that high but if he was using an overcharged plasma weapon he would be required to roll since the roll has the chance of having some consequences.

What I'm saying is that "impossible to hit" does not mean you don't have to roll.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I cant, there is no target anymore, hitting is impossible. The not anymore existing target does not have a toughness value, i cant wound it. The enemy cannot allocate the non existing wounds to it. It cant make any saves, its not there anymore. Its impossible to complete the sequence.

Just because it's impossible to hit doesn't mean that you don't roll if required to do so. An Ork with a heavy weapon moves and declares that he will target an Eldar flyer with the craft world benefit that makes it -1 to hit. If the Ork has a BS 5+ he would need a 7+ to hit. He can't roll that high but if he was using an overcharged plasma weapon he would be required to roll since the roll has the chance of having some consequences.

What I'm saying is that "impossible to hit" does not mean you don't have to roll.

Except you just wouldn't declare that shot, so we're back to no roll...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
... But, because i fired the lascannons first i cant hit with the HKM, the target is already destroyed.

The target being destroyed doesn't prevent you from rolling through the sequence. We all still know what the "to hit" rolls, "to wound" rolls, etc will be because we declared which weapon was going to fire at which target at step 3. The stats of the weapon and target unit do not change.
You absolutely CAN complete the sequence. It would be silly to do so, but it is 100% possible within the rules, which is all that matters.

-

The target being destroyed quite literally does stop you completing any further attacks. You don't make "ghost rolls". There is nothing to wound or save. You should stop claiming this as it's simply incorrect.

Let us say that I agree that no target = unknown T, Sv, etc. I don't because those values WERE known when the target was selected, but let's say I do.

If we follow the sequence as far as we "can" go, we can at least roll to hit. The target being gone doesn't affect your 'to hit' roll. So even with that concession to my argument, you still get far enough in the sequence to be considered to have "used" the HKM. It just wouldn't affect the target at all.

So we roll to hit, but there is no target to compare S vs T, so the sequence ends and is considered "complete". The HKM still had the opportunity to fire.
Why is that not enough to consider it being used?

I actually hope this gets FAQ'd to allow the HKM to be "saved" in this case, but the current RAW, I just cannot see it.
To avoid this situation entirely, I may request my opponents roll the HKM first in all cases.

-

 Galef wrote:
Let us say that I agree that no target = unknown T, Sv, etc. I don't because those values WERE known when the target was selected, but let's say I do.

If we follow the sequence as far as we "can" go, we can at least roll to hit. The target being gone doesn't affect your 'to hit' roll. So even with that concession to my argument, you still get far enough in the sequence to be considered to have "used" the HKM. It just wouldn't affect the target at all.

So we roll to hit, but there is no target to compare S vs T, so the sequence ends and is considered "complete". The HKM still had the opportunity to fire.
Why is that not enough to consider it being used?

I actually hope this gets FAQ'd to allow the HKM to be "saved" in this case, but the current RAW, I just cannot see it.
To avoid this situation entirely, I may request my opponents roll the HKM first in all cases.

-

I was going to jump in but I think you've got it all figured out. Agree.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
... But, because i fired the lascannons first i cant hit with the HKM, the target is already destroyed.

The target being destroyed doesn't prevent you from rolling through the sequence. We all still know what the "to hit" rolls, "to wound" rolls, etc will be because we declared which weapon was going to fire at which target at step 3. The stats of the weapon and target unit do not change.
You absolutely CAN complete the sequence. It would be silly to do so, but it is 100% possible within the rules, which is all that matters.

-

The target being destroyed quite literally does stop you completing any further attacks. You don't make "ghost rolls". There is nothing to wound or save. You should stop claiming this as it's simply incorrect.

This is actually irrelevant. Resolving the attack is determining the effect of the attack, it isn't determining whether or not you have made the shot in the first place. You have already done that in step 3 when you say what models are shooting what weapons at what targets, before you start to resolve things to determine the effects of shooting.

Let's read the 7ed FAQ for reference.

Q: Do you have to select all targets before any dice are rolled for
the weapons mounted on a Super-heavy vehicle? If that is the
case, are One Use Only/One Shot Only weapons used up if a
previous weapon destroyed the target that the One Use Only/
One Shot Only weapon was going to shoot?
A: Yes, to both questions.

 p5freak wrote:
Those who claim that all shots are made at the same time, citation please. I cant find anything in the core rules that says all shots are fired simultaneously. If you resolve attacks one at a time for different weapons, and the target is destroyed before you roll for the missile, then its not fired.

Go over the rules for shooting again carefully.

1.Pick a unit to fire with
2. Declare targets for all weapons that are being fired.
3. pick one of the weapons and roll to hit/wound.
4. Opponent rolls saves and removes casualties.
5. pick a second weapon and roll to hit/wound.
6. etc, etc

You declare all weapons that you are firing before any rolls to hit and wound are made and before any casualties are removed. As such, all the guns are effectivly going simultaneously even if GW didnt use those exact words.

The rules don't say exactly when a weapon counts as having been "fired", but I think it's very strange to argue that you can save a one use weapon for later even after you've declared when and what you're shooting with it. The target being dead before the missile lands doesn't recall it.

I'd love to see this FAQ'd though, because as usual GW didn't bother to write comprehensive rules. Since they apparently thought a one use weapon was spent in an analogous situation in 7th, as txdyz pointed out, I think they'd likely rule it that way in 8th as well.

Galef wrote:Let us say that I agree that no target = unknown T, Sv, etc. I don't because those values WERE known when the target was selected, but let's say I do.

There is no RAW basis for this. Dont make stuff up that isnt there.

doctortom wrote:
This is actually irrelevant. Resolving the attack is determining the effect of the attack, it isn't determining whether or not you have made the shot in the first place. You have already done that in step 3 when you say what models are shooting what weapons at what targets, before you start to resolve things to determine the effects of shooting.

Step 3 is not shooting, its declaring the target. Shooting is step 4. I dont get to step 4 because the target is already destroyed.

txdyz wrote:Let's read the 7ed FAQ for reference.

Q: Do you have to select all targets before any dice are rolled for
the weapons mounted on a Super-heavy vehicle? If that is the
case, are One Use Only/One Shot Only weapons used up if a
previous weapon destroyed the target that the One Use Only/
One Shot Only weapon was going to shoot?
A: Yes, to both questions.

7th is irrelevant. We are playing 8th.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

You declare all weapons that you are firing before any rolls to hit and wound are made and before any casualties are removed. As such, all the guns are effectivly going simultaneously even if GW didnt use those exact words.

RAW, no. Dont make stuff up that isnt there.

 p5freak wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:

You declare all weapons that you are firing before any rolls to hit and wound are made and before any casualties are removed. As such, all the guns are effectivly going simultaneously even if GW didnt use those exact words.

RAW, no. Dont make stuff up that isnt there.

BRB 3. Choose Ranged Weapon wrote:In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

You declare where your shots are going. So if you declare your lascannons and HKM are going to shoot you must resolve all of the shots against the target.

What you need to demonstrate is permission to *not* resolve the shots once a unit is destroyed. Otherwise the rules clearly say that the shots are resolved, which means your HKM is used up.

As for the point before about it being "invalid", we still know what the toughness of the unit is even if there are no models left on the table. Any damage inflicted is lost. People generally don't roll for this as we know it has no practical effect, but the weapons are still used.

So which part did I make up p5freak? The rules that were quoted or the part where I said effectively simultaneous even if GW didn't use those exact words?

"I declare that I will shoot with my HMK but, because the target is destroyed, I take it back".

"I declare that my movement phase is done but, because I forgot to move one of my units, I take it back".

Don't go back on things you declared. Grow a pair and spend the missile.

Eihnlazer wrote:So which part did I make up p5freak? The rules that were quoted or the part where I said effectively simultaneous even if GW didn't use those exact words?

The part where you said effectively simultaneous. There is nothing in the rules telling us that all shots are fired at the same time.

topaxygouroun i wrote:"I declare that I will shoot with my HMK but, because the target is destroyed, I take it back".

"I declare that my movement phase is done but, because I forgot to move one of my units, I take it back".

Don't go back on things you declared. Grow a pair and spend the missile.

No one is saying i take it back. Shooting is done one weapon at a time. You cant fire a weapon at a target which is not there anymore.