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 p5freak wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:"I declare that I will shoot with my HMK but, because the target is destroyed, I take it back".

"I declare that my movement phase is done but, because I forgot to move one of my units, I take it back".

Don't go back on things you declared. Grow a pair and spend the missile.

No one is saying i take it back. Shooting is done one weapon at a time. You cant fire a weapon at a target which is not there anymore.

Can you quote the rules that say you stop resolving the shots you declared once the enemy unit is destroyed? Otherwise it appears that you want to take your shot back.

BRB 3. Choose Ranged Weapon wrote:
In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

Shooting is done 1 unit at a time. You declare which weapon(s) the unit is using and who they are using those weapon(s) against. Then in step 4 you resolve your declaration(s). In step 4 it says that you resolve each shot individually (note- not each weapon so you could shoot 1 round from weapon A and then a round from weapon B and then back to weapon A). It also allows the shooter to "speed roll" their shots if they wish. There is nothing from preventing a player from rolling all of his attacks at one time including attacks from different weapons and or models. That is an arrangement between players.

However, there is nothing in the rules that says that once you declare an attack in step 3 that you don't have to use that attack in step 4. In most instances it doesn't matter since nothing that is done can effect the game state. In some instances the attack could influence the game state (such as using up limited ammunition or the weapon exploding). In these instance the attack should be considered having occurred (the die rolls may be skipped if the other parts of the game state can not be affected).

JakeSiren wrote:

Can you quote the rules that say you stop resolving the shots you declared once the enemy unit is destroyed? Otherwise it appears that you want to take your shot back.

You cant shoot anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant wound anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant make saves for anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant remove anything from the battlefield that is no longer on the battlefield.

And as I have mentioned, if you intend to use the HKM, you should fire it first to avoid this situation entirely.

To specifically hold it as the last shot you intend to resolve is clearly creating a situation in which:
A) you are inviting this specific argument of this thread and
B) you are intentionally trying to "game" the system and use the HKM as a back-up that you will only use if your other shots do not kill the target.
Even if you do not agree that once declared it is used, you must admit that saving the HKM for this purpose is contrary to the spirit of the rules.

Why else would the rules clearly have us declare ALL shots BEFORE resolving them? The answer is to prevent players from declaring targets weapon by weapon as you resolve them. By intentionally "saving" the HKM because you didn't resolve it, you are clearly violating the spirit of the rules.
Once declared, it counts as being used even if you choose not to resolve it.

And again I must reiterate, not resolving the HKM is a choice. Even if the target is dead, you are allowed to still resolve the shots as nothing in the rules prevents you from doing so.
Yes, we do get to a step in which it becomes "impossible" to finish resolving the shot, however the HKM was still USED

If GW changes this by an FAQ it will be a CHANGE, not a clarification.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Can you quote the rules that say you stop resolving the shots you declared once the enemy unit is destroyed? Otherwise it appears that you want to take your shot back.

You cant shoot anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant wound anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant make saves for anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant remove anything from the battlefield that is no longer on the battlefield.

I agree. But how does that stop the HKM from being used again? You declared it was going to be used. Just because you choose to resolve it last doesn't mean it wasn't fired and hit the crater where the target was.
As others have stated, Step 4 onwards merely determines the affect of the shot that WAS fired. And within Step 4, we can at least roll to hit regardless of the target's existence.
Are you trying to say that if your HKM misses that you get to try an use it again? I don't think that will be supported.

The missile does NOT magically fly back into its launcher just because the target is no longer there

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You can do all of those things but there would be no game effect so it would be an empty gesture. If my opponent wanted to shoot at something of mine that was no longer on the board I would certainly allow them to do so. I would point out the fact that the target is no longer in play but if they really want to do it then...

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You can do all of those things but there would be no game effect so it would be an empty gesture. If my opponent wanted to shoot at something of mine that was no longer on the board I would certainly allow them to do so. I would point out the fact that the target is no longer in play but if they really want to do it then...

While I generally agree with you on this thread, I think it's important to note that a valid target DOES need to be on the board at the beginning of a sequence.

And I think that is a major issue with this situation. All conditions should be meet to resolve a sequence. Selecting a target, selecting a weapon in range, etc.
The misunderstanding seems to come from people thinking that not being able to resolve the whole sequence somehow retroactively changes a previous step.
Not being able to complete Step 4 DOES NOT allow you to go back and change your weapon selection at Step 3.
Steps go forward, not back. The HKM being selected at step 3 is what counts it as being used, regardless of not being able to resolve it at step 4.

Think of it this way. What if you were shooting at a multi-model unit with some models out of LoS.
What happens when you resolve other weapons that kill all the visible models, leaving the HKM with no visible target?
Can the HKM be resolved?
Does it still count as being used?

Of course. Because the target selection step comes before the resolution step. We are NOT asked to revert back to the target selection step once we move past, therefore we are allowed to continue resolving the shot. The target was valid WHEN SELECTED and we are NEVER asked to go back to an earlier step in the sequence.

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topaxygouroun i wrote:
"I declare that I will shoot with my HMK but, because the target is destroyed, I take it back".

"I declare that my movement phase is done but, because I forgot to move one of my units, I take it back".

Don't go back on things you declared. Grow a pair and spend the missile.

Bad analogy - I will create an analogy that fits.

You declare you are going to move with a unit - someone then plays a stratagem which prevents you from moving (this doesn't exist but just imagine it does) - do you now count as having moved?

We are talking about a missile that hasn't fired. Though I am surprised this discussion continues - it seems pretty clear we just need a FAQ to sort this out - clarification is required. I am of the opinion that it should count as having fired but whatever the case may be it needs to be consistent with all weapons.

If a plasma can chose to overcharge or not as the last of a series of weapons after a vehical is destroyed - it seems a little unfair to charge the HKM with being fired.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bad analogy - I will create an analogy that fits.

You declare you are going to move with a unit - someone then plays a stratagem which prevents you from moving (this doesn't exist but just imagine it does) - do you now count as having moved?

We are talking about a missile that hasn't fired. Though I am surprised this discussion continues - it seems pretty clear we just need a FAQ to sort this out - clarification is required.

I think this is also a bad analogy. If said stratagem existed, it would state that the unit would or would not counts as moving.
Not being able to resolve a shot that was declare is NOT stated as counting it as not being fired.

We are talking about the HKM being used, which I am arguing is determined at one of two steps. Either when it is selected at Step 3, or after rolling 'to hit' in Step 4.
As BOTH steps are unhindered by the target either existing or being in LoS (because it was valid during the target selection step), we can, in fact resolve all of Step 3 and AT LEAST the roll to hit for Step 4.
If it hits (or missed, doesn't matter) and there is no target to resolve the wound, it STILL counts as being used.

To argue otherwise is basically saying that if the HKM fails 'to wound" a target, it doesn't count as being used. And obviously that is wrong

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I declare I will charge with my unit A to opponent's unit B. The opponent uses a stratagem 'Troll-tastic!" which triggers when a charge is declared on his units - it allows him to move his units more than 12" away from the charging enemy unit. Is my unit A's charge spent or not?

 skchsan wrote:
I declare I will charge with my unit A to opponent's unit B. The opponent uses a stratagem 'Troll-tastic!" which triggers when a charge is declared on his units - it allows him to move his units more than 12" away from the charging enemy unit. Is my unit A's charge spent or not?

I think in this case you would still count as having charged that unit - you just can't be successful. Though Jorm Nids do count as having assaulted when they fail their charges and lose their cover save out in the open. So that seems to favor the HKM counting as being fired.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I declare I will charge with my unit A to opponent's unit B. The opponent uses a stratagem 'Troll-tastic!" which triggers when a charge is declared on his units - it allows him to move his units more than 12" away from the charging enemy unit. Is my unit A's charge spent or not?

I think in this case you would still count as having charged that unit - you just can't be successful. Though Jorm Nids do count as having assaulted when they fail their charges and lose their cover save out in the open. So that seems to favor the HKM counting as being fired.

So then the HKM is spent. It just can't be successful.

 skchsan wrote:
I declare I will charge with my unit A to opponent's unit B. The opponent uses a stratagem 'Troll-tastic!" which triggers when a charge is declared on his units - it allows him to move his units more than 12" away from the charging enemy unit. Is my unit A's charge spent or not?

Yes, because unit A was able to declare the charge to unit B. When the stratagem is used, it makes unit B move outside the possible 2d6 roll needed to change, meaning unit A still rolls, but auto-fails the charge.
Unit B would still be to overwatch.

Also, there is a good likelihood that "Troll-tastic" would specifically address this by saying that unit A may choose to declare a different target for the charge, thus being an exception to the normal rules.
Also, what if unit A declared a charge on 2 targets and only unit B moved outside possible charge distance? The targets were still selected at the appropriate step.
Using a stratagem to make a target an invalid target to select does NOT alter the fact that is WAS valid when selected. It just makes the resolution of that selection impossible, thus auto-fail

To my knowledge, nothing in the game says that the failure to be able to resolve a step in a sequence means you go can go back a step to alter the selection.
Failure to resolve a step is just failure. And failure implies attempt (i.e. USE)

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 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Can you quote the rules that say you stop resolving the shots you declared once the enemy unit is destroyed? Otherwise it appears that you want to take your shot back.

You cant shoot anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant wound anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant make saves for anything that is no longer on the battlefield. You cant remove anything from the battlefield that is no longer on the battlefield.

Actually you can. As long as the requirements are met at step 2 then you must resolve all attacks that were declared (which you do in step 3) in step 4. The game state is only checked for requirements being met during step 2 where you measure range, check LOS and any other requirements that are to be met. Once you reach step 3 you choose the weapons you are going to use based on those that meet the requirements. But you never go back and check LOS, Range or anything else. If you target a unit with one model 48 inches away with both a lascannon and an HKM and you kill the first model with your first weapon you can still keep firing even if the next model in that unit is 50 inches away and you only have 48 inch range. The game state has already been checked and it has already been determined that you can shoot the unit. So that proves that you can shoot models you'd normally not meet the requirements for. I see no reason this would be any different once the unit has been fully destroyed as all that mattered was that there was a unit that was in range you had LOS to in step 2. And the rules demand you resolve all attacks that were declared.

 p5freak wrote:
Step 1, the predator is chosen to shoot. Step 2, the target is chosen. Step 3, its twin lascannon and the HKM are chosen as ranged weapons. Step 4, resolve attacks, one at a time. The lascannons shoots, wounds and kills the target. Now, we resolve the HKM. The target is gone, i cant make any hit rolls. Its not fired. No one is reallocating any shots.

Case: My unit A is equipped with 4 bolters (24" range) and 1 heavy bolter (36"). I choose to target enemy unit B, comprised of 2 models. The unit B is situated so that 1 of their model is within range of all of unit A bolters; the other 1 model is sitting farther than 24". All unit B's models are in range of the heavy bolter.

I choose to shoot unit B with my unit A. I first resolve my heavy bolter shots, inflicting enough wounds to remove 1 model. My opponent removes the model that was 24" away from my unit A, leaving the model that was more than 24" on the battlefield.

By an extension of your argument, that would mean that my bolters can no longer be fired since there are no eligible models within range.

However, we know this to be not true as range and LOS is checked ONCE and not rechecked after each "resolved shots."

Similarly, once HKM is declared as the chosen ranged weapon, or "chosen to be used," you don't go back and "check" if the weapon is actually used or not.

 skchsan wrote:
I declare I will charge with my unit A to opponent's unit B. The opponent uses a stratagem 'Troll-tastic!" which triggers when a charge is declared on his units - it allows him to move his units more than 12" away from the charging enemy unit. Is my unit A's charge spent or not?

EDIT: already dealt with - others answered it would already be an unsuccessful charge but would still count as charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

doctortom wrote:
This is actually irrelevant. Resolving the attack is determining the effect of the attack, it isn't determining whether or not you have made the shot in the first place. You have already done that in step 3 when you say what models are shooting what weapons at what targets, before you start to resolve things to determine the effects of shooting.

Step 3 is not shooting, its declaring the target. Shooting is step 4. I dont get to step 4 because the target is already destroyed.

Step 3 is stating which weapons you are firing, and it requires you to state all weapons that you are firing (and who at) before you move on to resolving the effects of these weapons firing. As such, you are shooting the weapons when you say what are shooting, going weapon by weapon after that does not affect the fact that you are shooting all of the ones you say you're shooting. You still go through the step 3 and step 4. As was pointed out, even if the target unit is gone you can still make at least the to hit roll against the defunct unit, people just normally skip doing it because there's no effective difference in the result. That does not change the fact that the weapon is fired, however. You must resolve all attacks that are declared; you have not effectively shown where you are given permission to retroactively declare that a weapon will not be shooting (which is what you are doing when you say it doesn't fire because the target isn't there any more).