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Oh, you're mostly talking about the T v W calculation. I misunderstood.

I agree that it made s3 less bad by a decent amount. And that S5 seems to have done well by it. But also note that S4 can now wound most vehicles on a 5+ now (as they're T7). Not huge, but an upside. In that regard, I can see what you mean. S4 kinda got the rough end more than some other strengths, sure. But S6 now wounds T4 on 3s instead of 2s, which is a big change.

I really don't think AP5 -> AP0 was a mistranslation. Just think through what it would have meant if they did AP5 -> Ap-1. Nearly everything would be reducing Marines to a 4+. As nearly everything had AP5. And then what do you do with AP4? It was moved to AP-1, would you bump that to AP-2? Doesn't that seem too powerful?

Dandelion wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
We're going around in circles.
Let Power Armor ignore the first point of AP, and let Astartes Bolters reroll ones to wound. These things, for 1 point increase in price.

Makes your basic trooper tougher, and a good deal more killy for a weapon that is utterly iconic to the franchise, and meant to be deadly.

Eh... that would actually make marines worse per point. Guns with no AP actually become more point efficient and reroll ones is redundant with lieutenants. If you're struggling with Tau now, for example, it'll only get worse with those changes.
I still stand by more shots is better. +1 shot at half range is a 50% increase in lethality while reroll 1s is only a 10(ish)% increase. It doesn't even require changing the bolter since that would require adjusting a lot of codexes.

Hypothetically, if we had 2W marines with triple tap at 15 points vs 5 pt guard:

10 Marines:
- 30*2/3*2/3*2/3= 8.8 wounds (44.4 pts)

30 Guard:
- 60*1/2*1/3*1/3= 3.33 wounds (25 pts)

After morale the Guard lost a full 10 man squad (50pts) while the marines only lost 1-2 guys. That is an extremely favorable exchange. It might seem a bit much, but plasma/autocannons even the field very quickly: 3 plasma guns would reliably kill 2 marines each turn.

I like this simple change.

But would you only give the extra shot at 12"(?) only to the boltgun or to every gun? Such as a HB, or grav cannon. I think it would be fine if it was an extra shot with any special weapon, mainly because I want the melta to be good again and this would help.

And would this be a rule across the board for Assault marines, Devs, Intercessors?

Looking at other armories, I don't think bolter weapons are the problem at all. It's the base cost of the marine and the cost of much of their advanced equipment.

Grav at 28 pts is insane now that disintegrator is in the game.

Missile launcher at 25 pts has been insane since dark reapers existed.

Melta at 17 pts and 28 pts is completely nuts since melta has been garbage all edition.

Martel732 wrote:
Looking at other armories, I don't think bolter weapons are the problem at all. It's the base cost of the marine and the cost of much of their advanced equipment.

Grav at 28 pts is insane now that disintegrator is in the game.

Missile launcher at 25 pts has been insane since dark reapers existed.

Melta at 17 pts and 28 pts is completely nuts since melta has been garbage all edition.

I hear you, but I think his post is more for tacking on a rule/stat change as a fix than recosting them because apparently people think reducing xost of marine will break the game.

There are plethora of rule change (+1W, ignoring 1 AP, FnP against S# and below, etc) that literally does nothing to prevent hem from dying just as fast as they do now but at least the cost start to make sense.

Currently, anti-horde weapon makes quicker work of marines than they do against true horde blob point-for-point.

I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such rule/stat change.

Well - there are some rules changes that could make marines worth 13 points. People just can't handle marines actually being good though. They are so used to them being "mediocre" also known as bad.

The arguments will come through ... "oh if you make that change you have to change every unit in the imperium"
"Marines shouldn't be able to survive plasma"
"Marines are not actually super soldiers"
ect...ect...

The argument hasn't been "Marines are not actually super soldiers". It's "Marines are super soldiers who face super-soccer-hooligans, super-alien-xenomorphs, super-ninja/samurais, super-robot-aliens, and super-numerous basic humans". Which is a very different argument.

I don't care if they are vulnerable, but giving up 13 pts a pop minimum is not tenable. Especially is that price point puts a very low ceiling on their firepower.

Bharring wrote:
The argument hasn't been "Marines are not actually super soldiers". It's "Marines are super soldiers who face super-soccer-hooligans, super-alien-xenomorphs, super-ninja/samurais, super-robot-aliens, and super-numerous basic humans". Which is a very different argument.

Relative scale has always been 40k's biggest enemy. Space Marines are as big as an Ork! Is really hard to discern from Orks about human size when there's no humans for reference. One of my favorite things about having a Guard battalion in every Imperium army is just the addition of scale peppers all over the table that make everything feel properly large and intimidating.

Bharring wrote:
The argument hasn't been "Marines are not actually super soldiers". It's "Marines are super soldiers who face super-soccer-hooligans, super-alien-xenomorphs, super-ninja/samurais, super-robot-aliens, and super-numerous basic humans". Which is a very different argument.

Humm - the issue is scale. A human runs a 6" in this game. A space marine should be at least 50% faster but hes not.
I could go on and on about this but it's a waste. Space marines don't have an special capabilities that guardsmen don't have - they use the same guns - the move just as fast - there is 0 reason to take them.

Same guns? When did Lasguns become S4?

If the super-soldier moved 50%, wouldn't super-ninja/samurais run 100% faster? And xenomorphs 150% faster? So say they pegged humans at 6". Now Marines can move 9", ok. Now the Eldar move 12"? on a 4x6 board? Maybe not as ok. And xenomorphs move 15"? And that's just base move before considering Advancing, flying, jetpacks, jumppacks, etc?

It gets real crazy real fast. And then there is 0 reason to play the game.

Bharring wrote:
Same guns? When did Lasguns become S4?

If the super-soldier moved 50%, wouldn't super-ninja/samurais run 100% faster? And xenomorphs 150% faster? So say they pegged humans at 6". Now Marines can move 9", ok. Now the Eldar move 12"? on a 4x6 board? Maybe not as ok. And xenomorphs move 15"? And that's just base move before considering Advancing, flying, jetpacks, jumppacks, etc?

It gets real crazy real fast. And then there is 0 reason to play the game.

Space marines are as fast as eldar....
Geenstealers incredible speed is represented - they move 8 and can advance and charge. Same with hormagants - they get 8 inch move and 6 inch pile in.
Eldar get some representation because they can advanace and shoot with no penalty but should probably have even faster footsoldiers - at least their vehicals get the stats they deserve

A space marine is not just a human in a suit of armor - thats how they treat it. Same guns I mean they can wield the same guns.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such rule/stat change.

I don't think this thread is necessarily about making marines worth taking but rather justifying the cost.

Just as you say, no matter what you do, tacs wont be worth taking ever unless it goes down to somewhere around 11 points per model.

 skchsan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such rule/stat change.

I don't think this thread is necessarily about making marines worth taking but rather justifying the cost.

Just as you say, no matter what you do, tacs wont be worth taking ever unless it goes down to somewhere around 11 points per model.

Okay I mentioned this before.

Most marine players are probably still going to use scouts to get the alternate deployment.

But this is probably the better choice as it's now do I want alternate deployment or a better save

 fraser1191 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such rule/stat change.

I don't think this thread is necessarily about making marines worth taking but rather justifying the cost.

Just as you say, no matter what you do, tacs wont be worth taking ever unless it goes down to somewhere around 11 points per model.

Okay I mentioned this before.

Most marine players are probably still going to use scouts to get the alternate deployment.

But this is probably the better choice as it's now do I want alternate deployment or a better save

Exactly. The durability difference needs to be much more stark than it is now - +1Sv really means squat.

Scouts v. Marines discussion SHOULD be that of deployment flexibility vs staying power, not deployment flexibility vs 'omg-why-would-I-ever-take-them-over-scouts'.

I thought +1sv really means squats was more accurate for Orkz. For Marines, wouldn't it have been -1sv?

Or so assume, they were removed before I started playing.

So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

You do know how ridiculous Blightlord Terminators and Scarab Occult Terminators would be right? You guys don't think of the consequences.

It. Isn't. What. Terminators. Need. Because. They're. Already. The. Most. Durable. They. Have. Been. In. Years.

They need the offense increase.

One of the things they need is a decrease in the prevelance of D:2 weapons. Reaper Frag-equivelents, Plas, etc.

Beyond that, certain units having a 1+ I think would be an ideal way to go for the game. But it should be very, very rare (and remember, a 1 always fails). Termies might possibly warrant that, but a 0+ would probably be going too far.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
snip

I like this simple change.

But would you only give the extra shot at 12"(?) only to the boltgun or to every gun? Such as a HB, or grav cannon. I think it would be fine if it was an extra shot with any special weapon, mainly because I want the melta to be good again and this would help.

And would this be a rule across the board for Assault marines, Devs, Intercessors?

Only for boltguns so far. This would just be an ability like Volley Fire, or FRFSRF. The reason being that boltguns have too few shots for the marine platform. Up the number of shots and you get a very good anti-horde weapon, that is also decent against most other targets, a jack of all trades if you will. Basically, I'm trying to make boltguns a useful gun and not just a tax to get other stuff.

Melta and such are easier to fix since they aren't "standard" guns so there's room for tweaking. And for the most part, melta is just too expensive, cut it down to 10 or so points and people will start using them more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

You do know how ridiculous Blightlord Terminators and Scarab Occult Terminators would be right? You guys don't think of the consequences.

It. Isn't. What. Terminators. Need. Because. They're. Already. The. Most. Durable. They. Have. Been. In. Years.

They need the offense increase.

Riiiight. No. Shinning spears are the most durable they have been in years - terminators are about the same - which per point is at the pathetic level. For their points and granted they are really slow - they need durability and offensive buffs. They might need a slight point increase with these rules but it's what their unit profiles need to be to be useful.

A straight up 4++ for terms to go along with an army wide -1 ap for all weapons shooting at an adept astartes infantry/dreadnought/biker (and choas marines) would be a great place to start. Then probably remove their -1 to hits with powerfists and give them the old relentless rule and special ammo on their storm bolters. Then they are worth their points.

Things like Scarab Occults should gain a rule that they reduce the damage of a weapon by 1 and combined with all is dust they would have a 3++ save against any weapon not doing 3 or more damage.

There are entire armies sporting 4++ saves on every unit. For a terminator not to have one themselves is straight nonsense.

In what way is a 3+/4++ vs shooting 3+/- vs CC on the same level as a 2+/5++ vs everything or a 2+/3++ vs everything?

They're only about the same if you're saying Marines are super durable to small arms. The 3+ that makes Shining Spears so immortal vs small arms somehow makes the much cheaper Tac so fragile vs the same small arms.

Termies need a buff, but lets not go crazy.

If I'm shooting plasma guns or disentegrators at shinning spears and terms. I am going to kill more termiators than shinning spears with these weapons.

The spears are also 3x faster - have better shooting and about equal close combat. Plus they cost less.

Terminators need big buffs. As do all Astartes.

"The spears are also 3x faster - have better shooting and about equal close combat. Plus they cost less. "
Don't disagree. Well, Termies are a lot better in CC. By a LOT. But the rest is true, and I agree with your implication.

"Terminators need big buffs. As do all Astartes. "
Also don't disagree.

"If I'm shooting plasma guns or disentegrators at shinning spears and terms. I am going to kill more termiators than shinning spears with these weapons. "
True, many terminators (but not TH/SS termies).
But what of Boltguns? Assault Cannons? Shuriken? Shootas? Poison? Gauss? Pulse? Las? Any CC?

You're cherypicking. Against most attacks, Termies are more durable.

Just played against a list with 36 disintegrator shots. Can we agree that "most" weapons is irrelevant in the face of what is ACTUALLY used?

I'm extremely confident that most people run into more Poison, Bolt and Las than Disintigrators and Plas.

The weapons ideal for removing elite infantry are so common and so good at their job, there's no reason to consider firing the weapons you listed at them.

Bharring wrote:
"The spears are also 3x faster - have better shooting and about equal close combat. Plus they cost less. "
Don't disagree. Well, Termies are a lot better in CC. By a LOT. But the rest is true, and I agree with your implication.

"Terminators need big buffs. As do all Astartes. "
Also don't disagree.

"If I'm shooting plasma guns or disentegrators at shinning spears and terms. I am going to kill more termiators than shinning spears with these weapons. "
True, many terminators (but not TH/SS termies).
But what of Boltguns? Assault Cannons? Shuriken? Shootas? Poison? Gauss? Pulse? Las? Any CC?

You're cherypicking. Against most attacks, Termies are more durable.

Not really cherry picking - these are the go to multiple damage weapons and they both have 2 wounds each. Star Cannons / Riptide burst cannons with ATS / Ion Cannons / battle cannons. They all kill more terms than spears.

Terminators quite simply should be at least as durable to any kind of attack (unless it is a weapon that specifically damages more powerful units better than weaker ones - like the old grav cannon) The bonus durability they get against anti infantry weapons is more or less a trade off for their lack of maneuverability. Durability in CC is an afterthought most of the time for elite CC units - though the terms do win here - unless we start getting into support.

Bharring wrote:
I'm extremely confident that most people run into more Poison, Bolt and Las than Disintigrators and Plas.

I think you're actually incorrect about that. The armies that can spam kill-anything guns, do.

I'm trying field lists with as few boltguns as i can. Because they are bad.

Bharring wrote:
I'm extremely confident that most people run into more Poison, Bolt and Las than Disintigrators and Plas.

A posion raider with kabs and a splinter cannon averages 2 kills on spears and 1 termintor kill. When you factor in the radier dessie though - it's close to even in points damage.

The changes I suggest don't improve their survivability vs light arms ether - only against weapons with minus AP.