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Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?

 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen?

In some places, you have been, actually. Nothing major, but Buffalo New York is slowly leaving the US.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

So was Americas. So was Irelands. So was pretty much every South American country. This is a stone/glass house situation.




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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?

Not to defend Hamas, but there's always that possibility that human decency springs up and people refuse to murder other people . I point to Pinkville as an example of US Soldiers threatening to drop an airstrike on other US soldiers if they did not stop their war-crime in progress.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-reopen-gaza-crossing-after-rioters-burn-it-for-3rd-time/

Its gonna get worse there..
The main cargo belts are damaged for maybe weeks to months and fuel lines are at fraction of former capacity.

Whatever happens in Gaza, its not going to be good for the civilians stuck there. The rioters have taken out the one life line they had left. The Israeli and egyption border crossings are sealed..

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?

Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

 jhe90 wrote:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-reopen-gaza-crossing-after-rioters-burn-it-for-3rd-time/

Its gonna get worse there..
The main cargo belts are damaged for maybe weeks to months and fuel lines are at fraction of former capacity.

Whatever happens in Gaza, its not going to be good for the civilians stuck there. The rioters have taken out the one life line they had left. The Israeli and egyption border crossings are sealed..

Unfortunately the hard liners on both sides benefit from making the situation worse. The people that suffer the most and would benefit the most from improving things have the least ability to effect change.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?

Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen?

In some places, you have been, actually. Nothing major, but Buffalo New York is slowly leaving the US.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

So was Americas. So was Irelands. So was pretty much every South American country. This is a stone/glass house situation.




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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?

Not to defend Hamas, but there's always that possibility that human decency springs up and people refuse to murder other people . I point to Pinkville as an example of US Soldiers threatening to drop an airstrike on other US soldiers if they did not stop their war-crime in progress.

Short of North Korea - who might even be changing it's tune as we speak. Hamas is without a doubt - the least worthy governing body on the face of the planet. There is a lot of corruption in government around the world including my own government but as far genocid goes - Hamas takes the cake there. I honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end. If Israel didn't remove all weapons from Gaza and keep watch on them as they do - it would have been 50k men women and children attacking the wall yesterday with Ak-47s.

You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?

Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.

I honestly believe that if Israel thought peaceful coexistence could exist in that scenario - they would go for a two state solution in which they shared Jerusalem. The hate runs to deep. It's not about doing the right humanitarian thing for them. It's about protecting their nation. You have to admit - Palestinians are a legitimate threat to the security of their people.


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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.

Nothing is certain right now. It could work out - I hope it does.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.

Nothing is certain right now. It could work out - I hope it does.

Meh this is the tried and tested NK method. Even if they made a deal NK would break it as soon as the coast is clear, as they always do.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?

Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.

I honestly believe that if Israel thought peaceful coexistence could exist in that scenario - they would go for a two state solution in which they shared Jerusalem. The hate runs to deep. It's not about doing the right humanitarian thing for them. It's about protecting their nation. You have to admit - Palestinians are a legitimate threat to the security of their people.

Issue is that they already have what is basically a two state solution in all but name, because Israel doesn't want to recognize Palestine as an actual country with rights instead of an occupation zone. They have a heavily armed 'border' with a giant wall. Israel benefits a lot from the current situation as well. Netanyahu is pushing for the violence. If he really cared about peace he wouldn't play up this Jerusalem nationalism, he is willingly throwing oil on the fire and endangering the lives of his own citizens for symbolism. He knows he's getting away with it and even firmly supported by the US. Israel could be doing a lot to diffuse tensions in the region, but it goes out of its way to be as heavy handed as possible, because it is to the political benefit of the government.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.

What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?

 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.

Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?

Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK.

Forgetting WW2 and that more than just America fought in Korea. And Vietnam for that matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little.

Ok, true, refusing to win is a good way to lose.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling

Achem: the US lost more men in three days at Gettysburg then in ten years in Vietnam, The invasion of Normandy inflicted more casualties than all the American wars since Vietnam combined. Your idea of 'enormous' is hilariously small.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.

His whole scenarios is based on a racist fantasy, depicting people in a sort of subhuman light, that they're so consumed by hate and evil that they'd do anything to murder an Israeli, and that justifies their mass murder. This is a argument that was, in fact, made by Nazis, except that it was about the jews.

So let's call it what it is: racism. Stop and look at it: we have a local somewhat brown population being put into reservations by their White, European conquerors.

Over in the other thread, I pointed out that even if such a 50k man hoard existed, they're so grossly outnumbered that the citizens of Israel could beat them to death with stones and win.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.

What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?

How did the US create the regime in NK? NK was already oppressive when they invaded SK in 1950 and the US and UN would have unified Korea with SK winning the war if China didn’t jump in to save NK at the end. The US saved SK from an invading NK we didn’t create the NK threat.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.

Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


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Prestor Jon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.

What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?

How did the US create the regime in NK? NK was already oppressive when they invaded SK in 1950 and the US and UN would have unified Korea with SK winning the war if China didn’t jump in to save NK at the end. The US saved SK from an invading NK we didn’t create the NK threat.

NK was obviously bad before. We turned them into isolationist - which in turn allowed NK to become what it has today. China jumping in to help NK was a granted fact - it's not like it was a suprise. Just meaningless death.

NK followed, and still to a large extent does, the Stalin manual of operating. This includes tightly controlled borders and information. Always has. NK's economic isolation is due to much later actions. As for China, at the time, to Western nations, it was not 100% known that China would enter, and if it did, if it would have any functional force projection ability following its just-resolved and highly destructive series of decades long wars.

 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK.

Forgetting WW2 and that more than just America fought in Korea. And Vietnam for that matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little.

Ok, true, refusing to win is a good way to lose.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling

Achem: the US lost more men in three days at Gettysburg then in ten years in Vietnam, The invasion of Normandy inflicted more casualties than all the American wars since Vietnam combined. Your idea of 'enormous' is hilariously small.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.

His whole scenarios is based on a racist fantasy, depicting people in a sort of subhuman light, that they're so consumed by hate and evil that they'd do anything to murder an Israeli, and that justifies their mass murder. This is a argument that was, in fact, made by Nazis, except that it was about the jews.

So let's call it what it is: racism. Stop and look at it: we have a local somewhat brown population being put into reservations by their White, European conquerors.

Over in the other thread, I pointed out that even if such a 50k man hoard existed, they're so grossly outnumbered that the citizens of Israel could beat them to death with stones and win.

I didn't mention WW2 because it is not interventionism in the same sense. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

Okay - why is it racist?
Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern. I'm not saying that every Israeli that kills a Palestinian is justified make no mistake though - this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.

 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?

So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
NK followed, and still to a large extent does, the Stalin manual of operating. This includes tightly controlled borders and information. Always has. NK's economic isolation is due to much later actions. As for China, at the time, to Western nations, it was not 100% known that China would enter, and if it did, if it would have any functional force projection ability following its just-resolved and highly destructive series of decades long wars.

I'm only speaking of overall outcome. It doesn't need to be a direct cause. We went to war - lots of people died - things got worse in NK. This is the only extent that I am claiming.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?

So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.

I don't consider launching missles into israel blowing smoke.
Nor do I consider retaliating after being invaded and taking land in the process and then living on it to be a warcrime. I don't consider shooting people throwing grenades over a wall a warcrime ether.

I'm sure you've heard this argument before - What do you think the palestinians would do if they had a nuclear missle? I'm pretty sure they'd launch it right at Tel Aviv. Israel has nuclear missiles and they would never use them except as a last resort. Plus how can you call me racist based on "proportionality"? That seems really unfair.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay - why is it racist?

Because you dehumanized them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern.

It's not that people die, it's that people were killed in a war crime. If you want to call it a war.

 Xenomancers wrote:

this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.

If it's a war, then we watched, on camera, Israel committing war crimes. Total war. Killing civilians. Use of a banned chemical weapon. These all have, in the past, carried death sentences for the men responsible and the soldiers who commit them. if you don't believe me, I direct you to the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials.

Let me ask you, btw: what homes they might have stayed home at?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay - why is it racist?

Because you dehumanized them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern.

It's not that people die, it's that people were killed in a war crime. If you want to call it a war.

 Xenomancers wrote:

this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.

If it's a war, then we watched, on camera, Israel committing war crimes. Total war. Killing civilians. Use of a banned chemical weapon. These all have, in the past, carried death sentences for the men responsible and the soldiers who commit them. if you don't believe me, I direct you to the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials.

Let me ask you, btw: what homes they might have stayed home at?

I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?

Not to say gaza isn't a terrible place - but it looks a lot like most places in the middle east if you don't look directly at where a hamas weapons store was destroyed by a smart missle.
http://www.businessinsider.com/life-in-gaza-strip-pictures-2014-12#youve-seen-what-life-is-like-in-gaza--51

 Xenomancers wrote:

I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?

With certain caveats.

One: Hamas hasn't actually been the legal government of Gaza since last year. However, Fatah's efforts to take control from Hamas have been being quite expertly hampered by Mossad. Israel needs to stop literally murdering the effort to remove Hamas.

Two: Israel would have to stop supporting the burning alive of children. That one seems to bring out the screaming demand for vengeance in the local people.

Three: The US has to stop using the magic power of the UN veto to actually allow any of the investigations of Israel's actions to go forward.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Not to say gaza isn't a terrible place - but it looks a lot like most places in the middle east if you don't look directly at where a hamas weapons store was destroyed by a smart missle.

Or the homes of any of the 1400 civilians that were killed with smart missiles that year either, because someone from Hamas road past on a motorcycle, so Israel flattened the neighborhood.




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 Xenomancers wrote:

Nor do I consider retaliating after being invaded and taking land in the process and then living on it to be a warcrime.

Whether you consider it one or not, that's actually a war crime.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I don't consider shooting people throwing grenades over a wall a warcrime ether.

and this guy?

 Xenomancers wrote:

I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.

That's interesting considering it is not the Palestinians who hold all the military, economic, governmental, financial, industrial, agricultural, social, and foreign backing cards, they ball is just not in their court.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?

yes, a people who have no functioning economy or government or institutions, who live under literal occupation of a foreign military that builds its own walled off communities among them, constantly sabotaged, multiple foreign powers that have spent generations actively crippling any attempt at a functioning government, and who have no sovereignty over their own lands should rise up and overthrow the people who A: have all the guns, and B: are the only reason trash gets collected, and C: are the only people on the planet who seem to be fighting those they see as occupiers.

Methinks there are some factors we missed there.

And again, if we're gonna demand removal of terrorist governments, well, again, the Israeli's had more than their fair share rise up literally every political and military rank in the nation coming in from groups like Irgun and Lehi, up to and including Prime Minister (at least twice).

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

You know they have simar genetic markers right?


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?

So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.

Wait you just said FDR set up Japan attacking the US. That's pants on head crazy chemtrails moon landings were fake crap.

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

You know they have simar genetic markers right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?

So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.

Wait you just said FDR set up Japan attacking the US. That's pants on head crazy chemtrails moon landings were fake crap.

Its not an uncommon belief though, the carriers all being at sea in December is could be seen as suspicious in hindsight. Economic policy was pushing the Japanese Empire closer to having to do something.

Of course it was, that was the point, quit slaughter in Chinese by the tens of thousands.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?

its not just pure inteventionism, it is also US economic and political pressure. The US as it runs the show now is geared towards preventing conflict. Intervention is just the last option.

Korea created the most opressive regime? No, the Kim family already seized power before the UN intervention and started on their long road to murder and imprison enemies. Korea was going to end up horrible regardless. The part the US managed to pull out of the fire eventually managed to become a democracy. Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq we're blunders true, but especially Iraq did not adhere to the rules the US itself set. And Iraq isn't directly responsible for Syria. Syria collapsed due to its own problems that had very little to do with Iraq. Syria affected Iraq more than the other way around.

And it isn't all bad, you mentioned Kuwait alresdy. But you also have Haiti and former Yugoslavia around this time. The US alliance system is keeping traditional enemies on the same side and moving in the same direction. That is already very valuable in preserving the peace.

And lives lost sound enormous, but looked at statistically there are less wars and violent deaths than ever. With a steady decline in the period when the US is the sole superpower. The cost in American lives for the political and economic benefits it has brought is incredibly low. The US has build a global economic system to its benefit and has lost less people in 70 years than most countries have in conflicts before '45. The whole Washington Consensus and free trade has been build on this, with how the US set it up. Furthermore the way the system is set up lets the US run defecits unimaginable to other countries, because nobody is going to pull the plug on the spider in the middle of the web.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

You know they have simar genetic markers right?

Does that matter, most humans tend to be roughly similar, as we're one species. As mentioned before most Israelis are from European descent. You can be racist against people from the Middle East as a European. Israelis are even racist against Jews that aren't of European descent and in some ways the inter-Jewish racism based on country of origin still plays today.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.

Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.

And that will accomplish what? Go back to your hovel and wake up early next day for the 2h commute (of which a full hour is queuing at the gate) for a menial job in which you're paid 1/3 of a similar Israeli worker?

That's what most Palestinians actually do. I'm genuinelly amazed more people don't turn to violence because honestly their life is below the crap level. There is a small Palestinian middle class, and an upper class who make more than decent money (my distributor in the Palestinian territories rolls on an E-Class, has a nice house, etc.)

Those people don't throw themselves at the border, and only a few fringe idealists turn to violence. For the most part they want to buy a bigger TV and a bigger car, just like everyone else in the world. They know where their houses used to be because there are still people who lived there (less and less every day, though). Can you blame them for wanting them back?

In their minds, Israel waged a terrorist campaign that worked (king david hotel, assassinating the British highest authority in the region during wartime, assassinating the head UN negotiator for the sin of proposing Jerusalem to be in the Arab zone). All that people are now hailed as liberators and went on to be Generals, Prime Ministers and all sorts of relevant positions within the independent Israeli government. Terrorism works, they have a reminder of that every time they look at their Israeli-issued ID card or pay in Israeli shekels.

You can't really not expect that people who have nothing to lose put themselves in the firing like of a dozen trigger-happy israeli soldiers. For their families it's like triggering their life insurance policy, because once one of your children dies then Hamas takes care of the rest, and Hamas goes where neither Israel nor the PA go as far as providing jobs, food, housing and healthcare, and you can always have more children.

I go to Israel quite frequently (though it's been quite a few years I don't cross into the West Bank because then Israeli immigration gives you all sorts of crap) and cognitive dissonance once this issue turns up (and it does turn up, you can't really ignore it) is something like I haven't seen anywhere else in the world. Best case scenario is Palestinians deserve what's coming for them because they brought it on themselves, worst case is they don't qualify for the human card.