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I played a game where I move some of my troops onto the second floor of a building. Some of the models didn't reach the window. Their TLoS allowed them to see the transparent part of a flyer's stand. They couldn't see the flyer itself or its base. Is the transparent part of the base a legitimate target per RAW? I don't know if the base is considered part of the model. In most cases it doesn't matter but in this instance it may.

The way the situation was resolved was through a die roll off. But what should be the correct way to play this?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I played a game where I move some of my troops onto the second floor of a building. Some of the models didn't reach the window. Their TLoS allowed them to see the transparent part of a flyer's stand. They couldn't see the flyer itself or its base. Is the transparent part of the base a legitimate target per RAW? I don't know if the base is considered part of the model. In most cases it doesn't matter but in this instance it may.

The way the situation was resolved was through a die roll off. But what should be the correct way to play this?

Yes, it's part of the model. What else could it be?

From Stepping into a New Edition:

Q: How do I determine if a model is visible to another model?
A: The models are visible to each other if you can draw a straight, uninterrupted line between any part of one model to any part of the other.

I tend to think of the model, in this case, as the flyer itself and the stand to be a convenience.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I tend to think of the model, in this case, as the flyer itself and the stand to be a convenience.

You can think that all you want, but it's not true. The flyer stand is part of the model. It is a plastic part that comes in the box of a Citadel Miniatures kit. Otherwise I'll just use empty bases and claim my power armour is for convenience.

Fair enough.

Well when describing the movement phase they refer to the model and to the models base. I'd see that as an intentional and purposeful differentiation between the two in regards to the rules. So if they say model they mean model and no in my opinion being able to see a models base doesn't mean you have line of sight.

You can house rule it if you and your opponent think it’s counter intuitive to shoot the flight stand, otherwise it is very much part of the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasquatch wrote:
Well when describing the movement phase they refer to the model and to the models base. I'd see that as an intentional and purposeful differentiation between the two in regards to the rules. So if they say model they mean model and no in my opinion being able to see a models base doesn't mean you have line of sight.

That’s simply because distances are measured to a model’s base, unless it has none or some special rule to the contrary. You can shoot any part of a model, but you measure to the base. You move a model, but distances are measured using the base. That’s all there is to that, tbh.

It seems a little wierd that a model with a base has no LoS exemptions but a model without has plenty. From the designer's commentary

Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?

A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still
doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.

So my Storm Raven, which has a base, can be shot at if you can see the end of an antenna but, if I can only see the entire turret of a Leman Russ I can't shoot it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


So my Storm Raven, which has a base, can be shot at if you can see the end of an antenna but, if I can only see the entire turret of a Leman Russ I can't shoot it.

If this is true in your example would the leman russ also be restricted from shooting you back from that position?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I played a game where I move some of my troops onto the second floor of a building. Some of the models didn't reach the window. Their TLoS allowed them to see the transparent part of a flyer's stand. They couldn't see the flyer itself or its base. Is the transparent part of the base a legitimate target per RAW? I don't know if the base is considered part of the model. In most cases it doesn't matter but in this instance it may.

The way the situation was resolved was through a die roll off. But what should be the correct way to play this?

I prefer to resolve these situations from an immersion POV. So the reason you cna shoot a model if a banner or an antenna is visible but not the body is because it gives away the position. The shooting unit don;t shoot the empty hat like in cartoons. They shoot through the walls and aim for where they are stood, hense the 50% obscurred for cover rule.

When it comes to flyers and the base thing think immersion, how would the battle field be? No the flyer it's physically visible but does it give away it's position? Does the thrusters blow the wind and dust around the area showing that the flyer is just above as thus begin to aim upwards?

Discuss it with your opponent, build the imaginary battle field, get immersed into your battle, the battle fields in real life are alive and constantly moving, treat them as such.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It seems a little wierd that a model with a base has no LoS exemptions but a model without has plenty. From the designer's commentary

Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?

A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still
doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.

So my Storm Raven, which has a base, can be shot at if you can see the end of an antenna but, if I can only see the entire turret of a Leman Russ I can't shoot it.

Except that isn’t correct. You can see the turret or a sponson? You can shoot it. You must however measure to the hull for range purposes. Does that help?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nithaniel wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


So my Storm Raven, which has a base, can be shot at if you can see the end of an antenna but, if I can only see the entire turret of a Leman Russ I can't shoot it.

If this is true in your example would the leman russ also be restricted from shooting you back from that position?

It’s not true - both models can see and shoot each other, and distance would be measured from closest point on the hull of Russ to closest point of the base of the Stormraven.

Per the FAQ the turret of a vehicle without a base is not a point to which you can draw LoS. I can't remember which FAQ had that rule but I'm 95% sure that I saw it in one of them.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Per the FAQ the turret of a vehicle without a base is not a point to which you can draw LoS. I can't remember which FAQ had that rule but I'm 95% sure that I saw it in one of them.

Measuring is done to the base, if the model has one, if not measuring is done to the hull, excluding antennas, gun turrets, etc. LoS is to any part of the model, which includes antennas, gun turrets, etc.

Core Rules Questions

Q: If a Vehicle model has a base, but it is itself larger
than the base (such as a Stormraven Gunship), what do
I measure to – the base or the hull of the vehicle?
A: Unless such a model’s datasheet has an ability saying
otherwise, you measure to and from the model’s base.

Q: How do I determine if a model is visible to
another model?
A: The models are visible to each other if you can draw
a straight, uninterrupted line between any part of one
model to any part of the other.

Q: When shooting with models, do I measure ranges
from the model’s weapons, or from its base (or hull, if
it’s a vehicle without a base)?
A: Distances are measured from the closest point of the
model’s base (or from the closest point of the vehicle’s
hull if it does not have a base) to the closest point of the
target’s base (or hull).

 p5freak wrote:


Measuring is done to the base, if the model has one, if not measuring is done to the hull, excluding antennas, gun turrets, etc. LoS is to any part of the model, which includes antennas, gun turrets, etc.

emphasis added by me.

Thank you for finding this for me.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


Measuring is done to the base, if the model has one, if not measuring is done to the hull, excluding antennas, gun turrets, etc. LoS is to any part of the model, which includes antennas, gun turrets, etc.

emphasis added by me.

Thank you for finding this for me.

It does say that measuring is done from the hull excluding turrets but says nothing about LoS. According to the faq LoS is determined by any part of the model, so you measure base/hull to base/hull but you can use the turret for LoS purposes

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Per the FAQ the turret of a vehicle without a base is not a point to which you can draw LoS. I can't remember which FAQ had that rule but I'm 95% sure that I saw it in one of them.

Not correct, sorry. LOS is to any part of a model.

Can my antenna see his turret?
Yes.
Ok. Target acquired.
Now, is the target in range of my model and can I shoot it?
Let me now measure to the base (or hull) of the model whose only visible part is its turret.
Yes. The hull which is not visible is within range of my model.

The turret is visible and the hull is within range. I can shoot it from my antenna.

8th edition is both tactical and streamlined.

The battlefield isn't a static painting. You're not "firing" from the antenna, it's an abstraction to represent a swirling maelstrom.