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2018/04/04 15:55:00
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Ok so a long time ago, like ~a year ago at this point i gues , (pre codexes coming out) was playing vs a ynnari player. He plops the Ynncarne on the table via Innevitable death >1" and <3" away from one of my units... it Soul Bursts and he chooses Fight and procedes to PILE IN to my units and swing. Ok.. new edition whatever wierd but moving on... fast forward to Dhrukhari codex coming out and people are considering wether or not units that disembark from a transport <3" away from units can be Word of Phoenixed into close combat to avoid overwatch... now considering it's been a bloody year and this question keeps popping up at my table occasionally (also with stuff like CSM / Tyrranids fight twice stratagem) i'm curios what your interpretations are. I have my own but i'll save that as i don't want to influence the conversation
1) Simple: a Ynnari unit is set up form reserves / disembarks from a transport. It is obviosly >1" away from enemy models. Can it use Soul Burst to pile in and lock a unit in CQC. Can it make attacks against that unit?
2) A unit of Tyranids / Khorne has charged and wiped out an enemy unit , has consolidated, but is >1" from enemy units. Is it a valid target to Fight again? Can it swing? What if said Khrone / Tyranid unit did not previously charge?
3) A Ynnari unit has charged and wiped out a unit. You chose fight again. Does it fizzle? Does it pile it, swing at mid air, consolidate THEN CONSOLIDATE AGAIN?! (as soulburst happens "imediately, as in after enemy unit is wiped out, before consolidating). What if said ynnari unit has not charged?
My head hurts.... PLEASE GW
2018/04/04 16:06:38
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
1) I believe the unit can pile in and can swing. Reasoning - it may be chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase (overriding the normal rule of only selecting a unit that charged or is within 1" of an enemy unit). It may swing because it did not charge this turn and thus is not bound by 'may only target a unit it charged this turn' rule.
2) The unit that charged may be selected to fight again but cannot swing at the unit it consolidated in to (unless it also declared a charge against that unit). This is pretty cut and dry, if you charged you can only swing at the unit(s) you charged. If they did not charge they can fight the unit in question (see above). Being chosen to fight again does however still grant a pile-in and consolidation move regardless of if you are able to swing at the enemy unit.
3) It does not happen pre consolidation (per the Index Xenos 1 FAQ). So it would be unit charges, wipes out unit, consolidates, triggers soul burst. Effectively this would grant you a pile in and second consolidate but not allow you to fight (again because you charged and are thus limited to your targets).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:08:47
2018/04/04 16:22:00
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Farseer_V2 wrote: So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
[snip]
See the problem i have with 1) is that it's per FAQs you can make attacks against units you have declared a charge against in your previous charge phase... we're potentially talking Turn 1, BR 1, psychic phase here.... THERE HASN'T BEEN A CHARGE PHASE THE ENTIRE GAME YET
2018/04/04 16:22:56
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Farseer_V2 wrote: So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
[snip]
See the problem i have with 1) is that it's per FAQs you can make attacks against units you have declared a charge against in your previous charge phase... we're potentially talking Turn 1, BR 1, psychic phase here.... THERE HASN'T BEEN A CHARGE PHASE THE ENTIRE GAME YET
How does that impact the question? You can attack something you charged in your previous charge phase - if you haven't had one obviously there are no legal targets in that capacity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:23:27
2018/04/04 16:31:47
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Farseer_V2 wrote: So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
[snip]
See the problem i have with 1) is that it's per FAQs you can make attacks against units you have declared a charge against in your previous charge phase... we're potentially talking Turn 1, BR 1, psychic phase here.... THERE HASN'T BEEN A CHARGE PHASE THE ENTIRE GAME YET
What does this have to do with anything? Charging puts a restriction on you to only fight units that you charged.
Units outside of this restriction fight all the time. Usually when other units charge them and the 2nd turn of combat and forrward. But other exception excists as well, often in the form of stratagems or psykick powers.
For refference in the rewst of the thread, here is a copy of the fight rules:
Spoiler:
5. FIGHT PHASE
Carnage engulfs the battlefield as the warring armies tear each other apart.
FIGHT SEQUENCE
1.Choose unit to fight with
2.Pile in up to 3"
3.Choose targets
4.Choose melee weapon
5.Resolve close combat attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage
6.Consolidate up to 3"
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase. If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.
4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile: If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.
5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together. The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.
6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
To the OP: You might wanne change the title.to fighting twice. There are several who can do this. Any interepretation of the rule will also be affecting them Of the top of my head:
Khorne Berserkers (abilaty)
Tyranids (stratagem)
Necrons (Stratagem)
Dark Eldar (stratgem)
As far as I know the general consensuss on dakka, the hive mind and the the dark city (3 different forums) is that it allows the 3" pile in once you are allowed to fight again. Once you are allowed to fight it starts the chain you follow through. You are allowed to fight if you charged, are within 1" of an anemy, or some outside rule, like the once mentioned above, allows you to start the fight chain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:36:12
It may swing because it did not charge this turn and thus is not bound by 'may only target a unit it charged this turn' rule.
Am i missing something with that phrasing? Your argument is that "because a charge phase hasn't happened this turn yet"? Why Would that let it swing tho? If we were on Turn 2 BR 1 and it had charged during your turn 1 and hypothetically Strenght from death is triggered from a psycher blowing himself up or something but otherwise?
Farseer_V2 wrote: So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
[snip]
See the problem i have with 1) is that it's per FAQs you can make attacks against units you have declared a charge against in your previous charge phase... we're potentially talking Turn 1, BR 1, psychic phase here.... THERE HASN'T BEEN A CHARGE PHASE THE ENTIRE GAME YET
What does this have to do with anything? Charging puts a restriction on you to only fight units that you charged.
Units outside of this restriction fight all the time. Usually when other units charge them and the 2nd turn of combat and forrward. But other exception excists as well, often in the form of stratagems or psykick powers.
Ow so you and Farseer are saying it piles in during the psychic phase but fights in it's fight phase because it started within 1" of an enemy model...? yeah sure, that was a given but i'm talking about making melee attacks against the unit it's piled into in the psychic phase. (and then doing it again in the fight phase)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:36:10
2018/04/04 16:34:43
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
It may swing because it did not charge this turn and thus is not bound by 'may only target a unit it charged this turn' rule.
Am i missing something with that phrasing? Your argument is that "because a charge phase hasn't happened this turn yet"? Why Would that let it swing tho? If we were on Turn 2 BR 1 and it had charged during your turn 1 and hypothetically Strenght from death is triggered from a psycher blowing himself up or something but otherwise?
As long as you did not charge that turn you may fight anything you want. If you are selected to fight in the fight phase via soul burst you engage in all the normal steps. Charging places restrictions on what you can fight, nothing else. If you trigger soul burst and you haven't charged you can fight whatever you like (within the normal ranges of combat obviously). I think you're getting hung up on needing to charge to fight something maybe?
If you take unit A and it's 2.1" away from unit B and trigger soul burst on Unit A it can fight unit B. The only way it would NOT be allowed to fight unit B is if it had charged unit C earlier in the turn but not unit B. You are placing a targeting restriction on units that doesn't exist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:36:03
2018/04/04 16:41:51
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
It may swing because it did not charge this turn and thus is not bound by 'may only target a unit it charged this turn' rule.
Am i missing something with that phrasing? Your argument is that "because a charge phase hasn't happened this turn yet"? Why Would that let it swing tho? If we were on Turn 2 BR 1 and it had charged during your turn 1 and hypothetically Strenght from death is triggered from a psycher blowing himself up or something but otherwise?
Farseer_V2 wrote: So first - to state my position, a unit being chosen to fight as if it were the fight phase does not invalidate any of the other rules in play.
[snip]
See the problem i have with 1) is that it's per FAQs you can make attacks against units you have declared a charge against in your previous charge phase... we're potentially talking Turn 1, BR 1, psychic phase here.... THERE HASN'T BEEN A CHARGE PHASE THE ENTIRE GAME YET
What does this have to do with anything? Charging puts a restriction on you to only fight units that you charged.
Units outside of this restriction fight all the time. Usually when other units charge them and the 2nd turn of combat and forrward. But other exception excists as well, often in the form of stratagems or psykick powers.
Ow so you and Farseer are saying it piles in during the psychic phase but fights in it's fight phase because it started within 1" of an enemy model...? yeah sure, that was a given but i'm talking about making melee attacks against the unit it's piled into in the psychic phase. (and then doing it again in the fight phase)
I do not know the wording of the ynarii so it would help if you wrote them down. Also the FAQ you are refering to would help imensly. But it seems like your objection is that the ynari power happens outside of the regular timing rules. And yes it does, it is quite apparently written that way. Is there not a soulburst that lets you shoot when a unit is wiped out? All you need to do is stand next to someone in the leadership phase and now you can shoot in the leadership phase. It is no different then strating a fight in the psykick phase. The ynari rules states when they break normal timing resitrictions. Do you some how think a soul burst shooting is not allowed?
To the OP: You might wanne change the title.to fighting twice. There are several who can do this. Any interepretation of the rule will also be affecting them Of the top of my head:
Khorne Berserkers (abilaty)
Tyranids (stratagem)
Necrons (Stratagem)
Dark Eldar (stratgem)
As far as I know the general consensuss on dakka, the hive mind and the the dark city (3 different forums) is that it allows the 3" pile in once you are allowed to fight again. Once you are allowed to fight it starts the chain you follow through. You are allowed to fight if you charged, are within 1" of an anemy, or some outside rule, like the once mentioned above, allows you to start the fight chain.
The tittle does contain Fight Twice, yes.
Also again, i've highlighted the sticky part. Again the Stratagems at least do not say 'chose a unit to fight as if it were the fight phase' They say 'Chose a unit *fullstop* It CAN (as in, could be allowed to, if criteria are met, it is not phrase as 'It fights, period') fight, as if it were the fight phase. That's the big issue. Wether we are skipping step 1 in the chain, chose a unit. As once the debate of wether a unit IS a valid target, yes the chain progresses naturarly with all the pile ins and swings.
1) 3) A unit can immediately do on of the following: [..] The unit CAN fight as if it were the Fight phase
2) Select a HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER (or Tyrranid unit or ... Novokh) unit – that unit CAN immediately fight again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:47:56
2018/04/04 16:48:18
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
poweroftwo 754212 9911453 wrote:Also again, i've highlighted the sticky part. Again the Stratagems at least do not say 'chose a unit to fight as if it were the fight phase' They say 'Chose a unit *fullstop* It CAN (as in, could be allowed to, if criteria are met, it is not phrase as 'It fights, period') fight, as if it were the fight phase. That's the big issue. Wether we are skipping step 1 in the chain, chose a unit. As once the debate of wether a unit IS a valid target, yes the chain progresses naturarly with all the pile ins and swings.
You need to state your position. You're asking a question and then giving an objection that is clearly rooted in your belief without stating that. You've asked the question and been given an answer. What is your position? Without knowing that it is impossible to have this conversation. As it stands the rules are a clear
Once a unit is chosen to fight (via the normal stipulations, stratagem, or soul burst) it may fight any legal targets following the normal rules (i.e. pile in, attack within 1", etc).
The exception to this is a unit that charged - a unit that charged that is selected to fight (via any of the above) may only fight units it declared charges against.
These are the rules as they are written.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:48:31
2018/04/04 16:53:48
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
poweroftwo 754212 9911453 wrote:Also again, i've highlighted the sticky part. Again the Stratagems at least do not say 'chose a unit to fight as if it were the fight phase' They say 'Chose a unit *fullstop* It CAN (as in, could be allowed to, if criteria are met, it is not phrase as 'It fights, period') fight, as if it were the fight phase. That's the big issue. Wether we are skipping step 1 in the chain, chose a unit. As once the debate of wether a unit IS a valid target, yes the chain progresses naturarly with all the pile ins and swings.
You need to state your position. You're asking a question and then giving an objection that is clearly rooted in your belief without stating that. You've asked the question and been given an answer. What is your position? Without knowing that it is impossible to have this conversation. As it stands the rules are a clear
Once a unit is chosen to fight (via the normal stipulations, stratagem, or soul burst) it may fight any legal targets following the normal rules (i.e. pile in, attack within 1", etc).
The exception to this is a unit that charged - a unit that charged that is selected to fight (via any of the above) may only fight units it declared charges against.
These are the rules as they are written.
My position is one of confusion, actually right now, tho i think i'm getting a better grasp. Simply put IF a unit is a valid target for a "Fights twice" scenario, yes it would pile in, swing, consolidate no problem. The problem i have having is that seperation in the order of operations i've said earlier. That "can fight part". Are we choosing a unit TO fight, and moving on from Step 2, or are we picking a unit that can POTENTIALY fight if it matches the criteria of step 1.
2018/04/04 16:56:43
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
poweroftwo 754212 9911453 wrote:Also again, i've highlighted the sticky part. Again the Stratagems at least do not say 'chose a unit to fight as if it were the fight phase' They say 'Chose a unit *fullstop* It CAN (as in, could be allowed to, if criteria are met, it is not phrase as 'It fights, period') fight, as if it were the fight phase. That's the big issue. Wether we are skipping step 1 in the chain, chose a unit. As once the debate of wether a unit IS a valid target, yes the chain progresses naturarly with all the pile ins and swings.
You need to state your position. You're asking a question and then giving an objection that is clearly rooted in your belief without stating that. You've asked the question and been given an answer. What is your position? Without knowing that it is impossible to have this conversation. As it stands the rules are a clear
Once a unit is chosen to fight (via the normal stipulations, stratagem, or soul burst) it may fight any legal targets following the normal rules (i.e. pile in, attack within 1", etc).
The exception to this is a unit that charged - a unit that charged that is selected to fight (via any of the above) may only fight units it declared charges against.
These are the rules as they are written.
My position is one of confusion, actually right now, tho i think i'm getting a better grasp. Simply put IF a unit is a valid target for a "Fights twice" scenario, yes it would pile in, swing, consolidate no problem. The problem i have having is that seperation in the order of operations i've said earlier. That "can fight part". Are we choosing a unit TO fight, and moving on from Step 2, or are we picking a unit that can POTENTIALY fight if it matches the criteria of step 1.
No we are choosing a unit to fight and moving on to step 2. Effectively we can choose a unit to fight via any of the following criteria: it charged, it is within 1" of an enemy model, soulburst, stratagem, unit special rule. Once ti has been selected we move to step 2, the rules gave us permission to select it for step 1.
2018/04/04 16:58:51
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
You should re-read the core rules, it seems like most of your confusion comes from not knowing the basic rules.
1)
* The Charge and the Fight phase are different things.
* Disembarking from any(!) transport has no influence on the Charge or Fight phase - that's something from 7th edition that's completely gone now.
* If a unit charged this turn, it can only hit units that it declared that charge against (and usually received overwatch from). If a unit hasn't charged, it is free to hit anything that's in range.
2) Yes, but as was said it can only target units that it declared a charge against IF it charged this turn. If it didn't charge this turn, it's free to hit whatever it gets into range after their pile in move.
3) What Farseer said.
To put this into a practical example:
A unit of Ynnari disembarks from a transport and moves into position close to an Infantry squad that's guarding a Leman Russ. The Leman Russ is about 4 inches behind the Infantry squad.
Scenario A)
Soul Burst is triggered in the shooting phase by another unit. You activate our Ynnari unit that hasn't yet charged, pile into the Infantry squad and murder them all. Afterwards, they consolidate 3 inches towards the Leman Russ and are more than an inch away from the Leman Russ.
Fast forward to the Charge phase, your Ynnari unit charges the Tank, it is allowed to Overwatch, the survivors surround the Tank and start chipping it's paint.
Let's assume you're allowed to soulburst again and keep the
Scenario B)
Reset everything I've just said - the Ynnari unit charges the Infantry squad, receives overwatch and then murders them all again. Then they consolidate forward and are now again slightly more than an inch away from the Leman Russ.
If Soul Burst is triggered now and used on that unit, it is allowed to pile in on the Leman Russ, but cannot hit it since it forgot to declare it as a target for the previous charge. It then gets to consolidate, fin.
Scenario C)
Again, reset it all. The Ynnari unit charges both the Infantry Squad and the Leman Russ, both fire overwatch. The surviving Ynnari can't reach the Leman Russ (since the Infantry squad does a good job at blocking them), so they all pile in on the infantry squad, then murder them. Afterwards they again consolidate towards the Leman Russ and end up more than an inch away from it.
If Soul Burst is triggered now, our Ynnari unit gets to pile in to the Leman Russ and - since they declared a charge on it - gets to chip it's paint.
Scenario D)
Let's assume B or C happened, so the Ynnari are currently fighting the Leman Russ. In the next turn the Ynnari manage to kill the Leman Russ, then consolidate towards a Manticore that's nearby (no more than 4 inches away after the consolidation move).
Soul Burst is triggered, the Ynnari unit gets to pile in and manages to get into range on that Manticore - since it didn't charge that turn, it's free to attack it and consolidate afterwards.
Scenario E)
Lets assume B or C happened again, but the Manticore is after the first consolidation move still 6 inches away. Soul Burst is triggered and used on our unit again: It now moves 3 inches as a pile in towards the manticore, is still out of reach, then gets to consolidate another 3 inches. While it's unable to hit the Manticore, that Manticore will now have to fall back on it's own turn and won't be able to shoot (since Manticores don't have the Fly keyword).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 17:02:22
2018/04/04 16:59:07
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
From the tyranid 'Adrenaline Sugre': Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a Tyranid unit from your army - that unit can imediatly fight again.
Here is the rules from the fight part of the rules:
Spoiler:
5. FIGHT PHASE
Carnage engulfs the battlefield as the warring armies tear each other apart.
FIGHT SEQUENCE
1.Choose unit to fight with
2.Pile in up to 3"
3.Choose targets
4.Choose melee weapon
5.Resolve close combat attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage
6.Consolidate up to 3"
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase. If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.
4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile: If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.
5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together. The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.
6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
The important part is this bit:
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
Choose a unit to fight with dictates who is allowed to fight. It ends with the following 'A fight is resolved in the following steps:' Everything after that are all the steps of a 'fight'. The tyranid stratagem states you can fight. So the stratgem allows you to do all the steps following 1. Choose Unit to fight With.
Does your word of the phoenix use a similar wording?
poweroftwo 754212 9911453 wrote:Also again, i've highlighted the sticky part. Again the Stratagems at least do not say 'chose a unit to fight as if it were the fight phase' They say 'Chose a unit *fullstop* It CAN (as in, could be allowed to, if criteria are met, it is not phrase as 'It fights, period') fight, as if it were the fight phase. That's the big issue. Wether we are skipping step 1 in the chain, chose a unit. As once the debate of wether a unit IS a valid target, yes the chain progresses naturarly with all the pile ins and swings.
You need to state your position. You're asking a question and then giving an objection that is clearly rooted in your belief without stating that. You've asked the question and been given an answer. What is your position? Without knowing that it is impossible to have this conversation. As it stands the rules are a clear
Once a unit is chosen to fight (via the normal stipulations, stratagem, or soul burst) it may fight any legal targets following the normal rules (i.e. pile in, attack within 1", etc).
The exception to this is a unit that charged - a unit that charged that is selected to fight (via any of the above) may only fight units it declared charges against.
These are the rules as they are written.
My position is one of confusion, actually right now, tho i think i'm getting a better grasp. Simply put IF a unit is a valid target for a "Fights twice" scenario, yes it would pile in, swing, consolidate no problem. The problem i have having is that seperation in the order of operations i've said earlier. That "can fight part". Are we choosing a unit TO fight, and moving on from Step 2, or are we picking a unit that can POTENTIALY fight if it matches the criteria of step 1.
No we are choosing a unit to fight and moving on to step 2. Effectively we can choose a unit to fight via any of the following criteria: it charged, it is within 1" of an enemy model, soulburst, stratagem, unit special rule. Once ti has been selected we move to step 2, the rules gave us permission to select it for step 1.
Allright, wich rule? Ow also to add to my position as you put it. I'd LIKE to work as your saying as it's a tactical options and leaves room to outplay your oponent BUT i refer again to "Select a HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER (or Tyrranid unit or ... Novokh) unit – that unit CAN immediately fight again." You're reading that (and i would like to read that, i'm lawyering against myself here) as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / biker TO immediatly fight again". I'm reading it as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / Biker unit. If it is able to fight again (starting at step 1) do so".
And both versions could be correct, i just havn't seen it addressed officially one way or another.
nekooni wrote: You should re-read the core rules, it seems like most of your confusion comes from not knowing the basic rules.
Yep, you are correct. I played alot of the start of 8th and sporadically since. Had a brain fart of "unless a unit charged it cannot swing at all", moving past that
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 17:04:07
2018/04/04 17:05:23
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Allright, wich rule? Ow also to add to my position as you put it. I'd LIKE to work as your saying as it's a tactical options and leaves room to outplay your oponent BUT i refer again to "Select a HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER (or Tyrranid unit or ... Novokh) unit – that unit CAN immediately fight again." You're reading that (and i would like to read that, i'm lawyering against myself here) as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / biker TO immediatly fight again". I'm reading it as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / Biker unit. If it is able to fight again (starting at step 1) do so".
And both versions could be correct, i just havn't seen it addressed officially one way or another.
No both versions cannot be correct. You are adding intent and language. It reads 'Select an X, that unit can immediately fight again' - that's all it says. You are adding words which is drastically changing the meaning of the sentence that simply don't exist. You are attempting to interpret something that doesn't need to be interpreted. Select an X unit, it can immediately fight again says just that - select the unit, it can fight again. Stop adding words to the sentence and read it as it is written. Also for additional consideration - this is generally something that is understood. It forms the basis of the impact of several units efficacy and is regularly used at major events and I've never even seen it debated.
The word CAN is expressively permissive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 17:09:27
2018/04/04 17:08:15
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
The defenition you have does not refer to what 'fight is'. The word fight is only used once defined in chapter 5. 'Fight Phase'. It is in this sentence "[... A fight is resolved in the following steps:" The stratagem (nids) allow a unit to fight again. And then you perform the steps following "[... A fight is resolved in the following steps:".
Spoiler:
5. FIGHT PHASE
Carnage engulfs the battlefield as the warring armies tear each other apart.
FIGHT SEQUENCE
1.Choose unit to fight with
2.Pile in up to 3"
3.Choose targets
4.Choose melee weapon
5.Resolve close combat attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage
6.Consolidate up to 3"
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase. If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.
4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile: If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.
5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together. The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.
6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
Niiai wrote:
Choose a unit to fight with dictates who is allowed to fight. It ends with the following 'A fight is resolved in the following steps:' Everything after that are all the steps of a 'fight'. The tyranid stratagem states you can fight. So the stratgem allows you to do all the steps following 1. Choose Unit to fight With.
Does your word of the phoenix use a similar wording?
Yes word of the phoneix (soul burst) is worded similarly and if nothing else, this helps. ALOT
Allright, wich rule? Ow also to add to my position as you put it. I'd LIKE to work as your saying as it's a tactical options and leaves room to outplay your oponent BUT i refer again to "Select a HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER (or Tyrranid unit or ... Novokh) unit – that unit CAN immediately fight again." You're reading that (and i would like to read that, i'm lawyering against myself here) as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / biker TO immediatly fight again". I'm reading it as "Select a Heretic Astartes Khorne Infantry / Biker unit. If it is able to fight again (starting at step 1) do so".
And both versions could be correct, i just havn't seen it addressed officially one way or another.
No both versions cannot be correct. You are adding intent and language. It reads 'Select an X, that unit can immediately fight again' - that's all it says. You are adding words which is drastically changing the meaning of the sentence that simply don't exist. You are attempting to interpret something that doesn't need to be interpreted. Select an X unit, it can immediately fight again says just that - select the unit, it can fight again. Stop adding words to the sentence and read it as it is written. Also for additional consideration - this is generally something that is understood. It forms the basis of the impact of several units efficacy and is regularly used at major events and I've never even seen it debated.
I could say the same about you removing intent and language. You're making it an unconditioanl event where i see the "can fight" part as criteria dependent, not certain, but in any event Niiai i see as being correct regardless of wich of us is. I can't say i've seen the pile in move used in GTs (usually since you just shoot with soul burst) and have heard stories of it causing friction with SOME TOs so wanted to be 100%, 'beyond reasonable doubt' and all that. Apologies if i've offended. (Also english isn't a first language, i am certified as being proficient in it, tho, it's possible it was just equating 'can' and 'could' - apologies again).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 17:18:11
2018/04/04 17:44:39
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
I could say the same about you removing intent and language. You're making it an unconditioanl event where i see the "can fight" part as criteria dependent, not certain, but in any event Niiai i see as being correct regardless of wich of us is. I can't say i've seen the pile in move used in GTs (usually since you just shoot with soul burst) and have heard stories of it causing friction with SOME TOs so wanted to be 100%, 'beyond reasonable doubt' and all that. Apologies if i've offended. (Also english isn't a first language, i am certified as being proficient in it, tho, it's possible it was just equating 'can' and 'could' - apologies again).
No need to apologize, I figured (based on your flag) English was probably not your first. Ultimately with GW rules we may want to read intent but its very difficult to do because cannot know - thus we're left to rely simply on the words as they're written.
2018/04/05 00:31:14
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Actually one small caveat if Unit X performs heroic intervention into Unit Y, and Unit Y did not charge, Unit Y can fight against Unit X. So there are situations where you don't charge but can still fight.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/04/05 02:01:12
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
1. No, it cannot. The fight rules state that a unit can only fight if they charged in that turn or is within 1" when they fight. This stops anyone from activating a unit for a fight phase unless they charged (even then, charging imposes it's own restrictions. Like only being able to attack units you declared a charge to) or is within 1" of another unit (So if a unit that didn't charge wipes out the unit it was fighting and no other unit is within 1". Then they cannot activate again for a second/third fight.
2. Units that charged can activate again for another fight phase, as it fufills one of the two requirements (either it charged this turn or is within 1" of an enemy unit). A unit that didn't charge however, cannot as it doesn't fulfill either condition.
3. As with the second one, if the unit wiped out their target but charged, they can still perform a fight phase. Unless the new unit they pile in was one of their targets they cannot fight..... HOWEVER, if some units are say 6" away, you still get a free pile-in and consolidate which totals to 6". A unit that didn't pile in doesn't fulfill either conditions needed to activate for a fight phase (charged or is within 1")
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 02:02:15
2018/04/05 03:59:44
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
mchammadad wrote: 1. No, it cannot. The fight rules state that a unit can only fight if they charged in that turn or is within 1" when they fight.
This is not true. The rule is a unit may not be SELECTED to fight if it did not charge or start the phase within 1".
But the ability in question bypasses that and allows you to select a unit to fight as though it was the fight phase (I assume. Would need to see the exact wording on the ability in question). Since the ability is allowing you to select the unit you then move on to step 2 and follow the fight sequence. Which starts with 3" move.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2018/04/05 05:09:22
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
ok. so i have the rule on the screen, and I can see what the wording is:
The unit can fight as if it were the Fight phase
That's the part in the strength from death part we are talking about. The wording is a bit ambiguous. Cause it says the unit can fight, but can it actually be selected to fight. even then there is another part from strength from death that interest me
The Unit can charge as if it were the Charge Phase, even if it advanced or Fell Back this turn (Enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within 1" of an enemy unit.
Why would they add in a charge passage, if people could just pile in and fight with the fight one instead. Unless they designed it that the fight ability doesn't guarantee a fight sequence.
Hense the question, does this allow you to pile in an fight if you didn't charge or are not within 1" of an enemy unit. The answer i would have to give is a resounding No.
It gives you a fight phase, yes that is a given. But it doesn't allow you to go through a fight sequence in the phase itself. Instead it is assuming you are using the charge soulburst or charged in that turn in order to benefit from the additional fight phase.
Much like other fight phase abilities (Blood for the blood god, stratagems) they always assume you fufill one of the two requirements needed to be in close combat (Either within 1" or charged), the rule in itself, like other rules similar to it. Do not allow you to fight if there are no enemies within 1" or if you didn't charge
2018/04/05 05:31:56
Subject: Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Ye this is the part i was having trouble with. Charging determines WHAT you can attack IF you charged. The Charge itsself is not actually a requirement to proceed down the fight chain.
And this part clenches it for me; in the Core rules, fight phase, you have the 6 steps, Step 1 say [...] A fight is resolved in the following steps:. That last sentance. So the power / stratagem says a unit fights, gets to fight, participates in a fight, and the core rules say This is what a fight is: Pile in ----> Consolidate.
No need to apologize, I figured (based on your flag) English was probably not your first. Ultimately with GW rules we may want to read intent but its very difficult to do because cannot know - thus we're left to rely simply on the words as they're written.
True , and i was fairly interested in this from a RAW / Crunch PoW, tho as mechammadad said , it's ... suspicious, at the least to say the pile in trick works while the Soul Burst Charge option exists (yes yes charge give more distance + turns on certain "if charged / was charged" abilities). At the table i'd still deffer to my opponents rulling, i just have a better argument to present him / her in the future
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 05:43:04
2018/04/05 13:03:30
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
mchammadad wrote: ok. so i have the rule on the screen, and I can see what the wording is:
The unit can fight as if it were the Fight phase
That's the part in the strength from death part we are talking about. The wording is a bit ambiguous. Cause it says the unit can fight, but can it actually be selected to fight. even then there is another part from strength from death that interest me
The Unit can charge as if it were the Charge Phase, even if it advanced or Fell Back this turn (Enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within 1" of an enemy unit.
Why would they add in a charge passage, if people could just pile in and fight with the fight one instead. Unless they designed it that the fight ability doesn't guarantee a fight sequence.
Hense the question, does this allow you to pile in an fight if you didn't charge or are not within 1" of an enemy unit. The answer i would have to give is a resounding No.
It gives you a fight phase, yes that is a given. But it doesn't allow you to go through a fight sequence in the phase itself. Instead it is assuming you are using the charge soulburst or charged in that turn in order to benefit from the additional fight phase.
Much like other fight phase abilities (Blood for the blood god, stratagems) they always assume you fufill one of the two requirements needed to be in close combat (Either within 1" or charged), the rule in itself, like other rules similar to it. Do not allow you to fight if there are no enemies within 1" or if you didn't charge
The rule itself allows you to select it. When a unit fights the fight is done in steps 2-6 (see the end of the first step, it states that the following steps are the fight). You just need permission to select the unit to fight. The core rules tell you that you can select a unit if it successfully charged or there is an enemy unit within 1 inch. Soulburst (along with other things) gives you alternate ways to select a unit. Once you've found your permission to select a unit it can fight. The caveat to this though is that charging has its own rules that state a unit that charged cannot fight a unit that it didn't charge.
As for your soulburst charge action that isn't really indicative of anything. The soulburst charge is useful to try to tie up units farther than 4 inches (because you cannot soulburst fight something further than 3). You said that they want you to soulburst fight something that you charged or soulburst charged, but you cannot have 2 soulbursts on a single unit in a turn, so you cannot soulburst charge and soulburst fight.
As it stands yes you can soulburst fight and pile in to an enemy unit, or if you can't pile in to the enemy unit you can pile in and consolidate for 6 inches of movement. That being said I don't know why you'd do the second option and not just soulburst move. Only wraiths are slower than 6 I believe and you could just advance. Unless you wanted to charge later I guess.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/04/05 13:35:16
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Much like other fight phase abilities (Blood for the blood god, stratagems) they always assume you fufill one of the two requirements needed to be in close combat (Either within 1" or charged), the rule in itself, like other rules similar to it. Do not allow you to fight if there are no enemies within 1" or if you didn't charge
This is 100% incorrect - the strength of the fight again stratagems is specifically that they allow you to pile-in and consolidate a second time even if there isn't a legal unit for you to fight. You can, without a doubt, select a unit to fight that is not within 1" when using things like Blood for the blood god and get a pile in and consolidate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zarroc1733 wrote: As it stands yes you can soulburst fight and pile in to an enemy unit, or if you can't pile in to the enemy unit you can pile in and consolidate for 6 inches of movement. That being said I don't know why you'd do the second option and not just soulburst move. Only wraiths are slower than 6 I believe and you could just advance. Unless you wanted to charge later I guess.
Because if you choose the move option you cannot end your move within 1" of an enemy model vs. using the pile-in, consolidate trick allows you to engage secondary units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 13:36:28
2018/04/05 14:07:38
Subject: Re:Why do ynnari have to a thing?... here we go again (fighting twice)
Much like other fight phase abilities (Blood for the blood god, stratagems) they always assume you fufill one of the two requirements needed to be in close combat (Either within 1" or charged), the rule in itself, like other rules similar to it. Do not allow you to fight if there are no enemies within 1" or if you didn't charge
This is 100% incorrect - the strength of the fight again stratagems is specifically that they allow you to pile-in and consolidate a second time even if there isn't a legal unit for you to fight. You can, without a doubt, select a unit to fight that is not within 1" when using things like Blood for the blood god and get a pile in and consolidate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zarroc1733 wrote: As it stands yes you can soulburst fight and pile in to an enemy unit, or if you can't pile in to the enemy unit you can pile in and consolidate for 6 inches of movement. That being said I don't know why you'd do the second option and not just soulburst move. Only wraiths are slower than 6 I believe and you could just advance. Unless you wanted to charge later I guess.
Because if you choose the move option you cannot end your move within 1" of an enemy model vs. using the pile-in, consolidate trick allows you to engage secondary units.
True, I didn't think about that.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
