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Two Strategems I want to use together.

Phantasm - Allows you to pick up 3 units from the battlefield at the start of the first battle round before the first turn begins. Redeploy them as if it was the deployment phase.
Webway Strike - Allows placement of a unit or two into the webway, where they can enter play 9" away, etc. etc.

So, can I deploy a unit, spend command points to pick it up, then spend command points to put it in the webway?

 ArmyC wrote:
Two Strategems I want to use together.

Phantasm - Allows you to pick up 3 units from the battlefield at the start of the first battle round before the first turn begins. Redeploy them as if it was the deployment phase.
Webway Strike - Allows placement of a unit or two into the webway, where they can enter play 9" away, etc. etc.

So, can I deploy a unit, spend command points to pick it up, then spend command points to put it in the webway?

No. Webway strike only works in deployment, because it says "Use this Stratagem during deployment". "Set them up again as described" isn't good enough.

Could you use Webway Strike during deployment, pay the CP to gain the ability to set up a unit I reserves, if you so choose and later potentially use it in combination with Phantasm?

The 3CP variant of Webway Strike doesn’t work “immediately” anyhow, as you’d only be able to deploy the second unit a drop after the first one using the Stratagem at the earliest?

If it’s in the Webway it’s not on the board to be able to be repositioned. Wording is important.

I know that. Question is, if it's not in the webway YET!?



Normal Webway deployment.
- I spend 3 CP at the start of deployment, ideally right at the start and before Kurov's Aquila or something like this is on the board.
- Me and my opponent start deploying, me: a Waveserpent, he: a Leman Russ, me: a unit of Shining Spears into the WW (first unit for WWS), he: a Leman Russ, me: another Wave Serpent, he: a Leman Russ, me: a unit of Guardians into the WW (second unit for WWS), ... deployment finished, roll-off, seize initiative, game ...


Gamey way to do this.
- I spend 3 CP at the start of deployment, ideally right at the start before Kurov's Aquila or something like this is on the board.
- Me and my opponent start deploying, me: a Waveserpent, he: a Leman Russ, me: a unit of Shining Spears on the board (!), he: a Leman Russ, me: another Wave Serpent, he: a Leman Russ, me: a unit of Guardians on the board (!), ... deployment finished, roll-off, seize initiative.

Imperial Guard players goes first, so I play Phantasm. Having not yet used the capacity to place two units into reserve, which I paid for at the start of deployment, I now pick up 3 units as per Phantasm and 2 of those, instead of placing them on the battlefied, I NOW place into the Webway as per the ability granted by the Webway Strike Strat which I played and paid for during deployment

I've always taken it to mean you place the three units chosen into the Webway immediately as one 'drop'. You ascribe to the alternate view that it gives you '3 special drops'. There's no way to mesh those two viewpoints I'm afraid. I don't think you can leave an ability hanging past deployment unused then use it later, even if you go withyour interpretation of Webway. If you want to use that ability, you use it when it's used, not later on.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I've always taken it to mean you place the three units chosen into the Webway immediately as one 'drop'. You ascribe to the alternate view that it gives you '3 special drops'. There's no way to mesh those two viewpoints I'm afraid. I don't think you can leave an ability hanging past deployment unused then use it later, even if you go withyour interpretation of Webway. If you want to use that ability, you use it when it's used, not later on.

That would be cool too, but I've never seen it ruled that Webway strike actually would reduce your drop count. That would probably be a far more useful and less obnoxious way to use that stratagem.

Quite the opposite, since the 3 CP version is a single strat and you can only use it once per game, it seems like it cannot be "resolved" immediately almost by definition (unless it truly reduces your drop count), as the second unit must wait no matter what, even if you place two into the webway straight after playing the stratagem.

And if you cannot leave an ability hanging past deployment, Victor of the Blood Games is now officially the worst Stratagem ever

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I've always taken it to mean you place the three units chosen into the Webway immediately as one 'drop'. You ascribe to the alternate view that it gives you '3 special drops'. There's no way to mesh those two viewpoints I'm afraid. I don't think you can leave an ability hanging past deployment unused then use it later, even if you go withyour interpretation of Webway. If you want to use that ability, you use it when it's used, not later on.

That would be cool too, but I've never seen it ruled that Webway strike actually would reduce your drop count. That would probably be a far more useful and less obnoxious way to use that stratagem.

Quite the opposite, since the 3 CP version is a single strat and you can only use it once per game, it seems like it cannot be "resolved" immediately almost by definition (unless it truly reduces your drop count), as the second unit must wait no matter what, even if you place two into the webway straight after playing the stratagem.

And if you cannot leave an ability hanging past deployment, Victor of the Blood Games is now officially the worst Stratagem ever

Except by the definition of following the wording on the card when you play it and placing 3 units in the Webway right away (one drop). Which is how our group plays it.

(BTW, fallacious Strat comparison is fallacious, as that Strat specifies a lasting effect. Stay on target... )

You cant use them as you want to. Phantasm is used before the first turn begins, at which point the deployment phase is over. Webway strike is used during deployment phase.

To be clear, I don't think anybody in their right mind would play Webway Strike as described above. It's an obvious, unashamed and ultra-aggressive WAAC-RAW move best avoided no matter what.

But since it's the kind of stuff you might find yourself arguing at a tournament, it'd be helpful to have a solid written reference to point to saying "this isn't possible .. ever .. RAW"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
You cant use them as you want to. Phantasm is used before the first turn begins, at which point the deployment phase is over. Webway strike is used during deployment phase.

Well, the Webway Strike strat is played "during deployment" (there isn't a phase for it, strictly speaking). But since a single, once-a-game stratagem cannot possibly be resolved simultaneously to two sequential actions of placing two units on the battlefield (or the alternative provided by the strat), it's not clear (to me) how long you can "hold" the option the Strat gives you.

Why is playing by the rules "ultra-aggressive"? Is it "ultra-aggressive" for me to require re-rolls before modifiers? Is it "ultra-aggressive" for me to ask you roll to hit for your attacks?

FWIW these Webway style stratagems allow you to deploy multiple units at the same time, thus lowering your "drop" count. If I have 6 units, and you have 5, and I use Webway Strike to slap 3 of them into the Webway on my first deployment selection, followed by normal alternating, I will finish deploying first.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


FWIW these Webway style stratagems allow you to deploy multiple units at the same time, thus lowering your "drop" count.

Probably more realistically useful, admittedly. Is there an FAQ on that?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
FWIW these Webway style stratagems allow you to deploy multiple units at the same time, thus lowering your "drop" count.

Probably more realistically useful, admittedly. Is there an FAQ on that?

There doesn't need to be, any more than there needs to be an FAQ saying you roll to hit for your Bolters. The rules are what the rules are.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
FWIW these Webway style stratagems allow you to deploy multiple units at the same time, thus lowering your "drop" count.

Probably more realistically useful, admittedly. Is there an FAQ on that?

There doesn't need to be, any more than there needs to be an FAQ saying you roll to hit for your Bolters. The rules are what the rules are.

Condescension aside, he is right. Reading and applying the rule as written works, and gives you the 3-for-1 drop. Trying to spread it out isn't as written on the Stratagem and causes various headaches.

Fair enough. If that is the case, and I can play the stratagem at any point during the deployment (?), can I play it before my opponent's first drop, possibly getting up two drops on him (and possibly avoiding CP farms set up by my opponent 100%)?

It says "During Deployment", so you can indeed use it before your opponent tries to deploy a unit, even if you are deploying second.

What happens if he also tries to use a "During Deployment" stratagem is unclear, because GW as usual didn't bother to FAQ (Special Snowflake or otherwise) "during deployment" simultaneous uses, despite FAQing ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’ and ‘after both armies are fully deployed’. If you're willing to stretch an FAQ that doesn't strictly apply, just roll off (or invoke TMIR because why not).

I would argue that you cannot, because you would then be deploying the first unit(s), not the person who is supposed to be doing so. The implication is you use this instead of a normal drop, not to ‘get the drop’ on dropping a drop! Nothing about the Stratagen overrides mission rules and gives you permission to place first.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I would argue that you cannot, because you would then be deploying the first unit(s), not the person who is supposed to be doing so. The implication is you use this instead of a normal drop, not to ‘get the drop’ on dropping a drop! Nothing about the Stratagen overrides mission rules and gives you permission to place first.

Except the very first line of the stratagem does give you permission. It says to use it "during deployment" not "when you would deploy a unit".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I would argue that you cannot, because you would then be deploying the first unit(s), not the person who is supposed to be doing so. The implication is you use this instead of a normal drop, not to ‘get the drop’ on dropping a drop! Nothing about the Stratagen overrides mission rules and gives you permission to place first.

Except the very first line of the stratagem does give you permission. It says to use it "during deployment" not "when you would deploy a unit".

By that logic you could use it before the Deployment Map is even selected.

Moreover, the Stratagem instructs you to place off board ‘instead of’ on board. You have to wait your turn. The Stratagem doesn’t do what you think it does in terms of timing.

But if that‘s the case, we‘re back to the Stratagem not being simultaneous to the actual deployment drops of units.

If the Strat itself is timed to „instead of placing a unit on the battlefield“, it could never be used on 2 units at once, as you cannot place two units simultaneously.

Either the Strat just „unlocks“ the option to place units in reserve „instead of on the battlefield“ at a time not specified in the Strat (but in line/sequence with normal deployment and possibly re-deployment rules) or Strat and unit-placement happen simultaneously when you play the Strat and thereby inevitably out of sequence with normal deployment.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But if that‘s the case, we‘re back to the Stratagem not being simultaneous to the actual deployment drops of units.

If the Strat itself is timed to „instead of placing a unit on the battlefield“, it could never be used on 2 units at once, as you cannot place two units simultaneously.

Either the Strat just „unlocks“ the option to place units in reserve „instead of on the battlefield“ at a time not specified in the Strat (but in line/sequence with normal deployment and possibly re-deployment rules) or Strat and unit-placement happen simultaneously when you play the Strat and thereby inevitably out of sequence with normal deployment.

The Stratagem literally gives you that permission.

As I said, if you’re not of that view then we’re shouting from opposite hills instead of being able to discuss and agree anything.

Hey, I am literally fine with either version.

A) A single deployment drop of both units out of deployment sequence (by necessity if it‘s two units simultaneously)
B) Two separate deployment drops non-simultaneously to the Stratagem played (by necessity, if it’s two consecutive drops, as a once-per-game-Strat cannot possibly be played at two points in time).

But both versions inevitably open shenanigans. A would allow players to hijack the deployment sequence. B would allow delaying until the condition of „place it on the battlefield“ appears in the rules, which includes redeploy-options.

But it is not logically possible for the stratagem to be both simultaneously to two units being deployed at a single, once-per-game point in time that cannot interact with the Phantasm Strat due to timing AND be applicable to separate deployment drops at two points in time as to not alter the drop count of armies using it.


But most importantly, I don’t think the wording on the Stratagem is, as you seem to think, watertight enough to definitively and 100% make the case for one variant in the heat of a tournament in a late round against a guy arguing for the other variant, to be honest.

It‘s not about me or you being of one opinion or the other. It‘s about having a definitive text that allows no room or alternative interpretation against the most insistent devil‘s advocate, or else a FAQ clarification would be helpful.

Important side note: WWS only ever allows up to 2 units. You have to spend 3CPs to do so, which is probably why everyone assumes it's 3 units, but sadly it's only 2

On topic, this all depends on whether you think Phantasm treats "as if it were the deployment phase" as if it were actually the deployment phase, thus allowing WebWay strike or not.
Personally, I think WWS is garbage for more than 1 unit anyway (see above) and it's best to use it early to feign deployment during the actual deployment.
Waiting until the use of Phantasm is so tactically irrelevant that it hardly merits a RAW discussion

-

 Galef wrote:
Important side note: WWS only even allows up to 2 units. You have to spend 3CPs to do so, which is probably why everyone assumes it's 3 units, but sadly it's only 2

On topic, this all depends on whether you think Phantasm treats "as if it were the deployment phase" as if it were actually the deployment phase, thus allowing WebWay strike.

-

I it’s not. It‘s whether the Webway Strike‘s ability to place multiple units in reserve instead of „placing it on the battlefield“ is „executed“ or „applied“ to these units at the exact moment the Stratagem is played or at a point after the CP are spent when you would „place a unit on the battlefield“ in normal (pre-) game sequence.

 ArmyC wrote:
Two Strategems I want to use together.

Phantasm - Allows you to pick up 3 units from the battlefield at the start of the first battle round before the first turn begins. Redeploy them as if it was the deployment phase.
Webway Strike - Allows placement of a unit or two into the webway, where they can enter play 9" away, etc. etc.

So, can I deploy a unit, spend command points to pick it up, then spend command points to put it in the webway?

Seconding on BCB.

WWS is stratagem @ deployment.
Phantasm is stratagem @ beginning of the game, i.e. post deployment.

WWS cannot be triggered/used during post-deployment, even if the wording on the phantasm says "as if it was deployment phase". The consideration is only valid in so far as the phantasm stratagem is concerned. It does not provide "as if deployment phase" status for invoking WWS stratagem.

In other words, it provides "as if deployment phase" for the unit in question, not for your turn. The usage of WWS requires your TURN to be deployment phase, so it doesn't matter if your units have "as if deployment phase".

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hey, I am literally fine with either version.

A) A single deployment drop of both units out of deployment sequence (by necessity if it‘s two units simultaneously)
B) Two separate deployment drops non-simultaneously to the Stratagem played (by necessity, if it’s two consecutive drops, as a once-per-game-Strat cannot possibly be played at two points in time).

But both versions inevitably open shenanigans. A would allow players to hijack the deployment sequence. B would allow delaying until the condition of „place it on the battlefield“ appears in the rules, which includes redeploy-options.

But it is not logically possible for the stratagem to be both simultaneously to two units being deployed at a single, once-per-game point in time that cannot interact with the Phantasm Strat due to timing AND be applicable to separate deployment drops at two points in time as to not alter the drop count of armies using it.


But most importantly, I don’t think the wording on the Stratagem is, as you seem to think, watertight enough to definitively and 100% make the case for one variant in the heat of a tournament in a late round against a guy arguing for the other variant, to be honest.

It‘s not about me or you being of one opinion or the other. It‘s about having a definitive text that allows no room or alternative interpretation against the most insistent devil‘s advocate, or else a FAQ clarification would be helpful.

A's not a hijack if you are playing it as one of your "drops" during deployment to put them in at once, and you bring them out as one.How is that shenanigans, given that you can have multiple units in a transport in reserve as a single "drop", and bring out those units simultaneously?\