Missing failcast

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**Talizvar**

It really comes down to the manufacturing controls applied and and the inherent limits on the materials used.
I remember those skimmers in 3rd edition, that was when I started out in the game and it did take a bit of work to match them up.
From what I know of injection molding now, I would say the mold was running a bit hot or not enough cooling time allowed prior to ejecting the part from the mold.
Plastic is typically better since it is a repeatable process with good controls, just like how back then they repeatedly made a bunch of parts a bit warped till they dialed it in.

Executive summary of below: A process works best if it was designed for that material: Finecast was not and is completely different from Pewter that it replaced.

Finecast was usually used on parts that were originally metal and as best I could tell it was an unholy blend of using the original molds and cutting more vents into it or making a new mold of the same metal part.
It looks like from the parts I had received they did not change the process to better address the new material needs (like de-gas / apply vacuum), I wonder if they still used the "spin-cast" process or just performed a direct pour.
Heck, the actual density or thermal-mass of the mold would have a huge impact on cooling causing short-shots: do they heat the mold?
How much?
Molten pewter is thermally much different than a resin (as well as weight for centrifuge) , does heat have any impact on it's viscosity or cure time?
How long do they keep the resin in the mold to allow a proper cure?
Taking the part out too soon could make it less resistant to sag.

I would LOVE to look at a Forgeworld resin mold process and compare it to Finecast: I am certain I will not see the lessons learned applied.

**Motsie**

Bellerophon wrote:
It's a history thing. Sammael and other similar models are old sculpts that were designed for metal casting and converted to finecast - or in some cases designed for finecast from the get-go - because at the time the GW design philosophy was that bulk kits got plastic and characters/elites/other-kits-that-didn't-move-many-copies got metal, purely down to the economics of recouping setup costs and the fact that back in the day you could get better detail in a metal model. More recently GW have had a policy of designing nearly everything new for plastic moulds (even a lot of limited edition things) probably because their plastic technology has improved, they'd already ditched metal and they ballsed-up the launch of finecast so badly that it gained a reputation it will never recover from. The likes of the said Primaris captains were designed after GW made that transition. Spin casting and injection moulding are quite different processes, so converting an old metal/finecast model to plastic would be too troublesome. A plastic Sammael would require a new sculpt. They may well do that at some point, as they gradually phase out all the non-plastic. I'm sure there's plenty of models that they'd like to replace with new versions, but they can only put out models so fast and it seems of late that they prefer launching brand new models ahead of replacing old ones. Likely because people who already own an old version might not buy the new one but if it's a brand new unit and nobody has it yet, sales will probably be higher.

Fundamentally I think there's a mistake in there. The costs of setting up for plastic moulding mean that for the most part we won't get variations on kits like HQs, whereas in the past there were often several different metal versions which was great if you wanted more than one of that HQ in your army. Back on the Eldar example, I've got four different OOP metal Farseers waiting to paint. Back in the day I had multiple different metal High Elf mages, etc. Nowadays you get one monopose plastic version of each HQ and that's it. Admittedly easier to convert, but each one will be starting from the same base.

That's fair, thanks for the explanation. I really wish they'd give a second thought towards more complicated models, though. The resin they use works for some models (like Azrael) that don't have a lot of bits and pieces.

Sammael is just a mess and the amount you pay for that model is crazy for the quality of the cast. Wasn't resin supposed to make things cheaper?

**sfshilo**

Missing it? They still use the damn stuff.

**pm713**

insaniak wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Plastic doesn't come bent. I got some Warlocks recently and everyone had a problem. Failcast is called failcast for a reason.

Plastic does come bent sometimes. Not nearly as often or as badly as finecast, but it's not perfect.

I've never had any bent plastic. There are two things I got in failcast I can think of that weren't bent, droopy or otherwise flawed badly.

Did you try assembling a space marine landspeeder when it was released in 3rd edition? They were notorious for having a warped chassis that didn't fit together properly.

Likewise, when they released the heavy weapons sprue for the Eldar vehicles in late 4th/early 5th (?) edition, the missile launchers tended to have varying degrees of bend in them - I think the muzzle was dragged sideways by one of the venting ports on the sprue. That was when I was selling bits online, and about half of the HW sprues that I got had to be replaced,and there were several others that I wound up just keeping because they were passable but I didn't think they were good enough to sell.

And let's not even get into the sometimes appalling mould slippage on the tactical marine sprue over the years...

I've never had those so I've never heard of those issues being that bad.

**Stormonu**

I was lucky enough to buy my Eldar aspects shortly before they switched over to Failcast.

I do have a Hive Tyrant, Zoanthrope, a squad of Striking Scorpions, an Autarch and a Necron Lord in failcast. The Autarch looks like he is in a [i]Smooth Crminal{/i] video, the Necron Lord’s staff is pointing at his toes, the Hive Tyrant won’t stay together and the Zope looks like it’s been in a bus accident. The only ones without problems has been the Scorpions, but I glued the %@#! Wrong weapon to him...

In the end, if I could exchange each with a plastic version - including the metal aspects, I-d do it in a heartbeat.

**daedalus**

Failcast was bad. I think I've been disappointed with just about every failcast mini I've had.

Only exception was a Terminator Librarian that I cut the face out of and put a GKT helmet inside of. That would have been WAY harder with a metal mini, and since I was already doing heavy modification to it, I didn't mind that the face was garbage to begin with. Lucky that it was the only spot that had significant damage.

I loved my metal minis. The new plastics are nice though.

**chromedog**

I'll never miss finecast.

I miss the metals. Which is why I scour the second hand tables for the models in metal that I liked, rather than try to find a less-than-gak finecast version

**techsoldaten**

Every Finecast miniature I own has problems.

Daemon Prince of Nurgle, his parts fall off. I can't pin it / glue it enough because the shape of the hole changes. It's like rubber.

Dark Apostle's Dark Crosius has a crown that keeps falling off. Super Glue has no effect. I built a housing in Greenstuff that also falls off.

Aspiring Champion has an axe hand that keeps falling off. It's been glued so many times he looks mutated beyond reason.

Raptors - I threw them away they were so bad. The torsos broke on 5 of them, I got some metal ones off eBay to replace them.

Finecast was billed as 40k in HD. Might as well have used wax.

**Geifer**

insaniak wrote:
Did you try assembling a space marine landspeeder when it was released in 3rd edition? They were notorious for having a warped chassis that didn't fit together properly.

Sometimes I think I must own the only flawless 3rd ed Landspeeder in existence.

Land Raider top plates are another example of plastic prone to warping. Large, thin plastic sheet in general has that problem.

Motsie wrote:
That's fair, thanks for the explanation. I really wish they'd give a second thought towards more complicated models, though. The resin they use works for some models (like Azrael) that don't have a lot of bits and pieces.

Sammael is just a mess and the amount you pay for that model is crazy for the quality of the cast. Wasn't resin supposed to make things cheaper?

For GW, behind the scenes, yes. For the customer the advertised benefit was that the new wonder material would hold the crispest detail imaginable, thus the brand name: Finecast.

**Just Tony**

I have Pedro Kantor and Captain Cortez. They are going to be the only non-plastic character models I own. I have no intention of owning resin ANYTHING from GW other than the LTD ED Crimson Fists Captain that was given to me.

**Fueli**

Just recently got three packs of sniper drones in failcast. All the barrels of the guns were warped to hell and bits on the bottom of the drone didn't fit together at all. Had to do some cutting and sawing and bending. End result is alright, but if there was a chance to get these as metal models I would've jumped right in.

On the contrary, the Firesight Marksmen that came with the drones were pretty good. Just needed some filing.

My previous failcast models were pretty bad, but after dedicating some work on them they come out alright. Working with metal models was easier of course, unless you were doing conversions. Absolute worst I've seen were my friends Necron heavy Destroyer weapons. S -shaped from the box and beyond repair. Oh and my Draigo had curved sword. Curved sword!

**Cybtroll**

Not missing the material at all.

But I miss the old sculpts too. New miniature are usually too needlessly circonvoluted (but this is specifically a GW problem: the new Alpharius is near to perfection).

So, yes, I do miss old sculptors. I do not miss the galaxy itself, however (I prefer metal).

**Porphyrius**

I haven't owned anything in finecast, but I absolutely miss a lot of the old metal sculpts. There are lots of fantastic new plastic kits too of course, but I love many of the old metals. I'm using an old metal Sternguard sergeant as a lieutenant and a metal "Master of the Chapter" as a captain in my Imperial Fists army; the detail is fantastic, and I also like the heft of the minis.

**Talizvar**

I admit the "heft" is what I miss most of the metal miniatures, feels that little bit less than a "toy".
I usually have to go through the business of putting fender washers or lead shot with epoxy into the base of the model so it sits well on the table.
Finecast has the added "benefit" of being super-light so it needs the base weighed down.
The parts seem rather delicate as well.
I have some 3 finecast models and those are the only ones that have broken from use (other than being dropped on the floor).
Not much of a fan of that stuff, I have used other resin materials that seemed far more durable than that garbage (plus have less bubble issues).

**Ouze**

Totally agree that despite the chipping issue with metal, the way it feels in your hand as a gaming piece is first rate.

**Elbows**

I rarely have chipping issues with my figures (have yet to properly drop one though), but I don't store them in a shoebox or grab them up by the handful either.

For single piece models, metal is fantastic to me. I also enjoy the fact that you can easily strip it down, and recover a brand new model. Being single piece, they're also not victim to terrible owners who don't know how to assemble minis destroying them...If you cock-up a plastic model building it, you're basically done.

Metal minis can live on and on and on...

**Just Tony**

I hate pewter, and once I have replaced every pewter model in all my armies, am going on a bender smelting them down into 1 oz pendant sinkers.

**Rune Stonegrinder**

It's called Finecrap IMO. it needs to go forever

**Stormonu**

Anyone still store their metal dreadnought in a sock?

**hobojebus**

Stormonu wrote:
Anyone still store their metal dreadnought in a sock?

How else would you store a lead Bjorn from 1994?

**techsoldaten**

Anyone still store their metal models in a shoebox?

I have some 90s era Orks I keep that way.

**Ouze**

Elbows wrote:
I rarely have chipping issues with my figures (have yet to properly drop one though)

Step 1: be a clumsy moron like me

The only model I consistently have problems with is the Ork Nob with Waagh Banner, though. Even with weight in the base it's a really unbalanced model, and I must have fixed the banner about 20 times.

Spoiler:

This was one I really struggled with getting in Finecast vs getting the original metal, but I wound up going with metal.

techsoldaten wrote:
Anyone still store their metal models in a shoebox?

I have some 90s era Orks I keep that way.

I've pretty much completely run out of space in my mini cabinet and have not yet gotten around to getting a second one from Ikea, so I have started putting some of my models "loose" into these little boxes my wife gets snacks in - they're about shoebox dimensions but only about 2 inches high. I've just been really careful to gently put them in the box, put the box where I am storing them, and not move the boxes much - no transport. Even then I limited that to models that won't need much repair, like Scarabs, Necron Warriors, and my giant pile of grots.

**Elbows**

Yeah, Ouze - I use larger bases for certain metal models. I should clarify metal is fine when used on properly sized models. I have no love for older metal dreadnoughts or the kick-in-the-dick metal landspeeder, etc. Vehicles should be plastic all day every day, but for simple infantry figures metal is superb. I also love that with my old school Eldar I don't spend any time assembling basic infantry models.

What is sad though is that with the loss of metal (because Finecast is not an acceptable substitute) we lost a TON of options for special characters. People who didn't game back in the 90's probably don't realize that you got random new miniatures/heroes/characters almost every month. Heck, each event had special minis they'd sell and if they came up with a cool scenario for a game in White Dwarf they'd produce a metal mini ---- because producing metal minis was easy as hell compared to plastics.

Smaller games were able to have full lines of miniatures because of the ease of producing metals in smaller numbers, and not needing the factory space to do it. There's a reason Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. had a rather staggering number of miniatures for being relatively small skirmish games. That's something you won't see repeated, even with Forgeworld attempting to support specialist games.

The loss of using metal as a material really hurt some things.

**tneva82**

Well I now have got first finecast models for a while so was curious to find how they are. Box of tank bustas and weirdboy.

End result: Zero casting issues. No holes where there isn't supposed to be. No parts missing. Detail crisp.

Only issue was cutting each part free requires more clips than plastic but then again I had no bazillion parts to cut so not sure which takes more time.

Beats paying the price of plastic characters at least.

**Talizvar**

Thought of you guys here, I just got my hands on the Eisenhorn Black Library special model.
It is a resin guy, not quite the bad stuff I used to see.
The staff on his back was warped so I hit it with heat and bent it back.
No bubbles/voids which was nice to see.

I prefer plastic so I can use glue to weld the join rather than adhere.
I feel I need to pin everything that is just a surface adhesion as well as take a 60 sandpaper to the join surface just to be sure.

The recent material is not as brittle as I remember, the "Dark Apostle" 's "halo" liked to snap just looking at it.
Or more likely the spikes jutting out of it grabbed every sleeve that got near it. (Never play CSM in a loose knit sweater!)

**hobojebus**

Modern resin is not failcast resin it hasn't been for years, they also stopped using spin molds.