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I know aura's normally don't have an effect while the character is inside a transport. But I have a very specific example in mind. The sororitas repressor from FW has a transport capacity of 10 and 6 fire points to fire out of. If I have a dominion squad inside one with say melta guns, and riding in the transport with them is a cannoness, which give's re rolls of 1's, would the shooting models from inside the transport get the benefit. Logically it seems yes, because they're all sitting in there together, but I can't find a rule to speak to such a specific example.

Thats because there is no rule.

The rule is, models inside transports cannot normally effect, or be effected by, anything unless specifically given permission to do so. It doesn't matter that the cannoness is in there with the unit. The cannoness cannot effect anything, be effected by anything, and do nothing without express permission.

Read the core rules (Transports pg. 9) : "Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

But the flip side is that anything that affects the vehicle also affects the passengers. So if you leave the Cannoness outside the troops inside would get to reroll.

Weird.

Cheers

Andrew

What i find even more weird is that the passengers cant shoot when the vehicle falls back, but the vehicle can. The passengers dont fallback, the vehicle does.

 p5freak wrote:
What i find even more weird is that the passengers cant shoot when the vehicle falls back, but the vehicle can. The passengers dont fallback, the vehicle does.

That is weird, why couldn't the dominions fire from the firing points if the vehicle fell back?

 peteralmo wrote:

That is weird, why couldn't the dominions fire from the firing points if the vehicle fell back?

Because you normally cant shoot after falling back. Unless you have the FLY keyword or some special rule, stratagem, whatever, which allows you to do it. But the passengers arent actually falling back, its the vehicle. Still, the open topped rule says they cant shoot, when the transport falls back.

 AndrewC wrote:
But the flip side is that anything that affects the vehicle also affects the passengers. So if you leave the Cannoness outside the troops inside would get to reroll.

Weird.

Cheers

Andrew

Where did you read that this is allowed ? Embarked units don't count as being on the table so they can't be affected by the aura if I'm not mistaken.

 Aaranis wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But the flip side is that anything that affects the vehicle also affects the passengers. So if you leave the Cannoness outside the troops inside would get to reroll.

Weird.

Cheers

Andrew

Where did you read that this is allowed ? Embarked units don't count as being on the table so they can't be affected by the aura if I'm not mistaken.

I cant find it at the moment, but its in one of the sidebars where it states that passengers on a vehicle suffers the same effects as the vehicle. So if the vehicle moves then they count as moving for firing heavy weapons, or as p5 pointed out if the vehicle falls back the passengers also count as falling back. So if the vehicle gets a reroll of ones, via an effect the passengers also get to reroll ones. They're not directly affected, but it's an indirect association.

Weird.

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But the flip side is that anything that affects the vehicle also affects the passengers. So if you leave the Cannoness outside the troops inside would get to reroll.

Weird.

Cheers

Andrew

Where did you read that this is allowed ? Embarked units don't count as being on the table so they can't be affected by the aura if I'm not mistaken.

I cant find it at the moment, but its in one of the sidebars where it states that passengers on a vehicle suffers the same effects as the vehicle. So if the vehicle moves then they count as moving for firing heavy weapons, or as p5 pointed out if the vehicle falls back the passengers also count as falling back. So if the vehicle gets a reroll of ones, via an effect the passengers also get to reroll ones. They're not directly affected, but it's an indirect association.

Weird.

Andrew

There is no such rule. It's part of the bespoke Open Topped rules some transports have. It doesn't apply to all transports.

The only thing I found was:

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked.

They are embarked, so abilities that affect other units within a certain range (so, auras) have no effect on the passengers. The rule you're referencing is only used by open-topped transports regarding movement, not auras.

Is that why I can't find it. Thank you for pointing it out. I was beginning to doubt myself.

So while it's not a BRB rule, it is a rule though. So check your codecii carefully.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
The only thing I found was:

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked.

They are embarked, so abilities that affect other units within a certain range (so, auras) have no effect on the passengers. The rule you're referencing is only used by open-topped transports regarding movement, not auras.

If references shooting, it is not exclusive to movement.

...any restriction or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example...

so if the vehicle receives a reroll of ones, then the passengers also get to reroll ones. Thought I do concede that this only applies to open topped vehicles. Not the OPs cannoness and repressor.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Is that why I can't find it. Thank you for pointing it out. I was beginning to doubt myself.

So while it's not a BRB rule, it is a rule though. So check your codecii carefully.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
The only thing I found was:

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked.

They are embarked, so abilities that affect other units within a certain range (so, auras) have no effect on the passengers. The rule you're referencing is only used by open-topped transports regarding movement, not auras.

If references shooting, it is not exclusive to movement.

...any restriction or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example...

so if the vehicle receives a reroll of ones, then the passengers also get to reroll ones. Thought I do concede that this only applies to open topped vehicles. Not the OPs cannoness and repressor.

Cheers

Andrew

Open topped is not a generic thing. Different "open topped" vehicles have different rules and have different permissions. You ONLY get the effects and abilities specifically granted by the rules of the transport.

If I remember correctly from the last time this came up, the sister of battle transport ONLY allows the unit inside to shoot. They are not effected by auras and cannot benefit from the SoB army buffs (whatever they were called). I COULD be wrong, but you need to look at the datasheet and follow the rules.

Open-topped rule provides explicit permission for its passengers to shoot while embarked, only.

It does not override the general provisions for embarked units to not affect/be affected by any ABILITIES while embarked.

 skchsan wrote:
Open-topped rule provides explicit permission for its passengers to shoot while embarked, only.

It does not override the general provisions for embarked units to not affect/be affected by any ABILITIES while embarked.

Unless otherwise stated by the rules themselves. Which in the case of certain open topped vehicles is stated.

Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the this model also apply to its passengers, for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on

Full quote taken from Index 2 Trukk entry

So there is your rules exemption for passengers being affected by abilities. If the vehicle is affected during the shooting phase then the passengers are as well. Otherwise I can load a unit on an open topped transport and shoot at a unit possessing a -1 to hit ability and claim that I have no modifiers as I am not affected.

Cheers

Andrew

A reroll is not a modifier though, it's more akin to an ability or special rule. In your exemple if you gave the vehicle a +1 to Hit I'd agree that the passengers got that, as it is a modifier, but rerolls aren't taken into account as far as I know.

While I see the point your trying to make, it doesn't, in the case of most OT vehicles*, make any difference as far as I can see.

If it affects the vehicle it affects the passengers. Whether its a +1, a reroll or a fallback move. Negative or positive it passes over

Cheers

Andrew

* I said most as I've not seen all open topped vehicle rules.

I'll have to agree that the RAW is pretty poorly written.

RAW as written, it clearly leaves a loophole which bypasses the ALL of the negative restrictions if the said transport is open-topped. By the examples shown, open-topped rule seemingly tells you to apply any movement based shooting penalties/restriction the transport suffers to its passengers as well. The key issue is the rule writer's choice of words to use the word "modifiers" - since the effects granted by abilities are often referred to as "modifiers" as well. It seems like unforeseen interaction arising from trying to shorthand the rule description.

One of the primary contradiction arises from the "Mobile Fortress" rule - if we were to restrict the modifiers to those resulting from movement only, does battlewagon's passengers not benefit from the rule? Afterall, battlewagon itself does not suffer the -1 from moving and firing heavy weapons. Naturally, this should carry over to its passengers as well from the wording of the "Open-topped" rule.

I think the key here is to distinguish the phrases/word "modifiers" and "modifiers that affect units within a certain range." Word for word RAW, units embarked in an open-topped transport is subject to all modifiers EXCEPT modifiers that are granted via abilities that affect units in certain range, since embarked units cannot benefit from, specifically, from "abilities that affect other units within a certain range." But again, this could potentially bring about another undesired effect on certain range based abilities such as -hit modifier at certain range since they are "modifiers that affect units within a certain range" nonetheless.

So while I stand the RAW can certainly be interpreted in such way, but we can establish that "re-rolls" are not "modifiers" from various sources.