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heyo i am a bit confused about the obessions...

the obsession rule states:

If your army is Battle-forged, all <KABAL>,
<WYCH CULT> and <HAEMONCULUS COVEN>
units in a DRUKHARI Detachment gain a
Drukhari Obsession, so long as every other
unit in their Detachment is from the same
Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven (if
you include a mix of <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT>
and/or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> units in the
same Detachment, none of those units gain an
obsession).

does that mean i cant have lets say wracks AND warriors in the same detatchments? (if i want the obsession bonus)
or does that mean i cannot have several (different) kabals (or cults or covens) in the same detatchment?

It means all units must have the same <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> to get a trait, just like every other army, with some units not affecting that. All in all it's closest to the Astra Copywritum method where Auxiliaries don't deny a trait but don't benefit from it either.

Example: A Patrol of a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART Archon and a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART Kabalite Warrior squad and a squad of Incubi. Since all models are KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART, and INCUBI models are discounted as per the "Blades for Hire" rule, the KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART models get to benefit from the Obsession.

However, a Patrol of a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART Archon and a CULT OF THE CURSED BLADE Wych squad. Since not all the units are of the same <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN>, no-one gets an Obsession.

Necrons also have a few units (Triarch Praetorians, Triarch Stalkers and a couple of special characters) which won't cost a detachment their Dynastic Code even though those models don't share a <DYNASTY>.

This is one of those rules where they could have worded it better, but doing so would probably have required writing three separate paragraphs for clarity.

Basically, if you have a detachment that is all from the same <Kabal>, they get a Kabal obsession, all from the same <cult>, they get a Cult obsession, all from the same <Coven>, they get a Coven obsession. Incubi, Scourges, Mandrakes, and Beasts are ignored, but because Beast Masters are Cult units, effectively in matched play Beasts are generally gonna be in a Cult detachment.

They make up for having to keep everything in separate, small attachments with the Raiding Force rule and its +4/+8CP for running 3/6 Patrols

i am absolutly clear on the incubi etc

 BaconCatBug wrote:

However, a Patrol of a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART Archon and a CULT OF THE CURSED BLADE Wych squad. Since not all the units are of the same <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN>, no-one gets an Obsession.

this is exactly what i want to know
and i you are right (and i believe you are) doesnt that MASSIVLY hemper the ability to create good "pure" dark eldar lists???

RedNoak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

However, a Patrol of a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART Archon and a CULT OF THE CURSED BLADE Wych squad. Since not all the units are of the same <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN>, no-one gets an Obsession.

this is exactly what i want to know
and i you are right (and i believe you are) doesnt that MASSIVLY hemper the ability to create good "pure" dark eldar lists???

This is exactly the same as nearly every other codex released so far, so how does it hamper Drukhari more than anyone else?

RedNoak wrote:
@ghaz

well, because you can only ever take units from 1/3 of the codex if you want the osbsession bonus

try to imagine necron warriors are <dynasty> but immortals are <cry-nasty> you could never have warriors and immortals in the same detatchment as they would stop you from getting any bonuses whatsoever

This is why multiple detachments exist, and you get a bonus for taking multiple patrols (though in reality no tournament will allow more than 3 detachments and I've yet to have a matched play game where that wasn't the case).

You're going to have to deal with the HQ tax like the rest of us!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

You're going to have to deal with the HQ tax like the rest of us!

first off i do not own any eldar models^^

and secondly... well thats kinda it... its not like everyone else. in fact you cannot play a battallion without duplicating generic HQ's
there are only 3 generic HQ's 1 kabal 1 cult and 1 coven
wanna have a battalion? better bring 2 archons, two succubi or two hamonculii... otherwise you wont get any boni

And exactly what's wrong with duplicating generic HQs? There's no rule against it.

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly what's wrong with duplicating generic HQs? There's no rule against it.

Drukhari generic HQs mostly suck as actual unit and it's the versatility their faction bonuses lend to the army that make them worth taking.

I mean "there's no rule against it" is hardly an argument for something. There's no rule against pouring two shots of fireball in my eyes and then snorting a line of cumin, but it's still a stupid idea.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly what's wrong with duplicating generic HQs? There's no rule against it.

Drukhari generic HQs mostly suck as actual unit and it's the versatility their faction bonuses lend to the army that make them worth taking.

I mean "there's no rule against it" is hardly an argument for something. There's no rule against pouring two shots of fireball in my eyes and then snorting a line of cumin, but it's still a stupid idea.

Reread his arguments. He said nothing about the Drukhari generic HQs not being worthwhile, simply that he had to have duplicates to field a Battalion Detachment and still benefit from an Obsession.

 Ghaz wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly what's wrong with duplicating generic HQs? There's no rule against it.

Drukhari generic HQs mostly suck as actual unit and it's the versatility their faction bonuses lend to the army that make them worth taking.

I mean "there's no rule against it" is hardly an argument for something. There's no rule against pouring two shots of fireball in my eyes and then snorting a line of cumin, but it's still a stupid idea.

Reread his arguments. He said nothing about the Drukhari generic HQs not being worthwhile, simply that he had to have duplicates to field a Battalion Detachment and still benefit from an Obsession.

Okay, he doesn't have the models. Presumably because they suck.

There's a reason for Raiding Force, and the fact that a lot of players probably don't have duplicates of lukewarm HQs is probably one of them. It comes down the the exact same thing.

 Ghaz wrote:

Reread his arguments. He said nothing about the Drukhari generic HQs not being worthwhile, simply that he had to have duplicates to field a Battalion Detachment and still benefit from an Obsession.

reread my post^^ i've simply answered your question :

so how does it hamper Drukhari more than anyone else?

imagin orks would have only 3 generic HQ's Warboss, Weirboy, Bigmek.
the warboss is always <footslogga>, weirboy is always <feral>, the bigmek always <speedy>
all those clans offer amazing boni... but in order to take a battalion and still benefit from those boni (since you cant mix clans in an detachment without losing their boni) you are forced to take two of the same, i.e. two warbosses, two meks, two weirdboyz
and now further imagine: ordinary boyz are always <footslogga> but gretchin are <feral>, so if you want a warboss, you cant take gretchin (without loosing the boni), and if you want a weirdboy you cant have boyz

granted... <footsluggaz> can be of the clan "Green big Goffs" or "snakebite jack" which offer amaaaazing boni... but nonetheless it does hamper drukhari list building reeeeaaaally bad... at least more than any army i know.

With Drukhari though, why even take a battalion? I can see maybe with the 3 detachment restriction that is popular (though that is easy enough for a TO to make a work around), but other than that, you are paying a ~50 point tax to have 3 patrols rather than a battalion. And by taking the patrol detachments, you one extra CP, and roughly 3 HQ, 3 FA, 3 HS, and 4 flyers extra and maybe lose an elite or two due to cabal/cult restrictions.

Shivan Reaper wrote:
With Drukhari though, why even take a battalion? I can see maybe with the 3 detachment restriction that is popular (though that is easy enough for a TO to make a work around), but other than that, you are paying a ~50 point tax to have 3 patrols rather than a battalion. And by taking the patrol detachments, you one extra CP, and roughly 3 HQ, 3 FA, 3 HS, and 4 flyers extra and maybe lose an elite or two due to cabal/cult restrictions.

Because it lets you take 3 different traits instead of one and lets you mix Kabal, Wych and Haemonculus units.

You can still take the 3 traits even if you use 3 patrols instead of a battalion, and if you want Kabal, Wych and Haemonculus units, just put each type in their own patrol.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Shivan Reaper wrote:
With Drukhari though, why even take a battalion? I can see maybe with the 3 detachment restriction that is popular (though that is easy enough for a TO to make a work around), but other than that, you are paying a ~50 point tax to have 3 patrols rather than a battalion. And by taking the patrol detachments, you one extra CP, and roughly 3 HQ, 3 FA, 3 HS, and 4 flyers extra and maybe lose an elite or two due to cabal/cult restrictions.

Because it lets you take 3 different traits instead of one and lets you mix Kabal, Wych and Haemonculus units.

...No it doesn't. Taking a battalion stops you from doing that, because mixing Kabal, Cult, and Coven units denies them their traits.

Depends on the Battalion. There is nothing that stops a Drukhari Army from consisting of a Kabal Battalion, a Wych Battalion, and a Coven Spearhead for 10 Command Points and three different Obsessions.

RedNoak wrote:
heyo i am a bit confused about the obessions...

the obsession rule states:

If your army is Battle-forged, all <KABAL>,
<WYCH CULT> and <HAEMONCULUS COVEN>
units in a DRUKHARI Detachment gain a
Drukhari Obsession, so long as every other
unit in their Detachment is from the same
Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven (if
you include a mix of <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT>
and/or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> units in the
same Detachment, none of those units gain an
obsession).

does that mean i cant have lets say wracks AND warriors in the same detatchments? (if i want the obsession bonus)
or does that mean i cannot have several (different) kabals (or cults or covens) in the same detatchment?

Yes, you can't have obsessions, etc for detachments that contain more than one cult, coven, or kabal keyword.

Yes that severely hampers the ability to build detachments.

No other faction has this problem.

Inagibe keywords as layers:

Aeldari/Drukhari/<coven, kabal, or cult>

Whereas most other things are like

Imperium/<astartes chapter>

The 3 patrols in a metal that limits to 3 detachments isn't terrible after building lists.

It lets you pick up lots of non troop units, if you choose them from a variety of keywords due to having little required for tax units. Or you can go with 2 battalions and 1 other detachment which nets 10 cp but you have to take more hq and troop tax. Drukhari troops are pretty cost effective, still not solid on the characters.

blaktoof wrote:
No other faction has this problem.

I think you mean "literally every other faction" has this problem. If I want to take Catachans, Ultramarines and Skittari in the same army, while keeping their traits, I have to work with multiple detachments too.

If it's too "hard" to make a Dark Eldar army because of the HQ tax, then play another army. Not to mention you have access to Craftworld and Harlequin units to cover your bases too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
No other faction has this problem.

I think you mean "literally every other faction" has this problem. If I want to take Catachans, Ultramarines and Skittari in the same army, while keeping their traits, I have to work with multiple detachments too.

If it's too "hard" to make a Dark Eldar army because of the HQ tax, then play another army.

No, I mean no other faction has to say take a warpamith in a cult of destruction keyword detachement to get obliterators for their heretic astartes army, and have another detachment to take cultists and then a other detachement to take actual chaos space Marines.

I don't think you actually see the issue.

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
No other faction has this problem.

I think you mean "literally every other faction" has this problem. If I want to take Catachans, Ultramarines and Skittari in the same army, while keeping their traits, I have to work with multiple detachments too.

If it's too "hard" to make a Dark Eldar army because of the HQ tax, then play another army.

No, I mean no other faction has to say take a warpamith in a cult of destruction keyword detachement to get obliterators for their heretic astartes army, and have another detachment to take cultists and then a other detachement to take actual chaos space Marines.

I don't think you actually see the issue.

Again, if I wanna take Predators in my Imperial Guard Army, I gotta pay a SM HQ tax to keep their traits. It's not any different. Just because Dark Eldar is multiple sub-factions in 1 book, much like how the SM codex is, doesn't make it special. I can't take Crusader squads in my Ultramarines army if I want to keep the trait, the exact situation you described.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
No other faction has this problem.

I think you mean "literally every other faction" has this problem. If I want to take Catachans, Ultramarines and Skittari in the same army, while keeping their traits, I have to work with multiple detachments too.

If it's too "hard" to make a Dark Eldar army because of the HQ tax, then play another army.

No, I mean no other faction has to say take a warpamith in a cult of destruction keyword detachement to get obliterators for their heretic astartes army, and have another detachment to take cultists and then a other detachement to take actual chaos space Marines.

I don't think you actually see the issue.

Again, if I wanna take Predators in my Imperial Guard Army, I gotta pay a SM HQ tax to keep their traits. It's not any different. Just because Dark Eldar is multiple sub-factions in 1 book, much like how the SM codex is, doesn't make it special.

You are talking about two different codexes.

The drukhari army list is broken into three lists which no other faction has to deal with.

Your examples show that your not getting the issue.

Imagine your IG have no heavy support slots at all to even select. If you want tanks for them at all you have to take an enginseer in a separate detachment with tanks, and those are the only units other than regimental advisers that detachment can take.

It's not the same as how you are claiming.

Wyche cults have no access to heavy support slots. If you want ravagers or Talos, the heavy support options in their codex, they have to take a different detachment to get them. No other codex has that kind of issue of having no options at all in that slot.

And? Just because Dark Eldar have a different structure doesn't make them immune from the rules.

Again, if you dislike it, don't play them. Vote with your wallet.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And? Just because Dark Eldar have a different structure doesn't make them immune from the rules.

Again, if you dislike it, don't play them. Vote with your wallet.

No one suggested they were immune to any rules.

It'd be really great if people could stop using "but them's the rules" as if it's a legitimate argument against people trying to discuss whether or not they're good rules.

RedNoak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

You're going to have to deal with the HQ tax like the rest of us!

first off i do not own any eldar models^^

and secondly... well thats kinda it... its not like everyone else. in fact you cannot play a battallion without duplicating generic HQ's
there are only 3 generic HQ's 1 kabal 1 cult and 1 coven
wanna have a battalion? better bring 2 archons, two succubi or two hamonculii... otherwise you wont get any boni

Yup.

Good thing our detachment bonuses are the most broken ones in the game to make up for it, and we also have the unique three-patrol rule if you'd like to not spam duplicate HQs.

It's a great rule because it encourages people and rewards them for taking fluffy dark eldar style armies. If it doesn't work in competative "meta" then go buy 8 flying hive tyrants and soak up all that win. It's a massive step in the right direction for the codexs and I hope the future books are done with as much thought.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
It'd be really great if people could stop using "but them's the rules" as if it's a legitimate argument against people trying to discuss whether or not they're good rules.

Wrong subforum. This is quite literally the "but them's the rules" one.